otnmbrd wrote:

JAXAshby wrote:

a.) all chain rode only became popular on recreational boats when boat owner
got old, fat and bought boats big enough to need need anchors over 20#, and

All chain rodes have been used and reasonably popular since long before
you started going to boat shows.


b.) all chain doesn't hold very well at all in a blow. If you doubt that,
check the anchorages during and after the next blow, see which boats dragged --
due to an "act of god", of course -- and which did not. then check to see how
they anchored.

A "blanket" statement, you obviously can't back up with experience and
show that you are unaware that there may be various causes for a boat
dragging which have little to do with the all chain rode.


otn

JaxAss's boat doesn't have enough forward flotation to handle an
all-chain rode.


--
We today have a president of the United States who looks like he is the
son of Howdy Doody or Alfred E. Newman, who isn't smarter than either of
them, who is arrogant about his ignorance, who is reckless and
incompetent, and whose backers are turning the United States into a pariah.

What, me worry?

All chain rodes have been used and reasonably popular since long before
you started going to boat shows.

My boatshow going experience goes back to the 1950's. All chain rodes didn't
start to become popular until the later 1980's and didn't really hit stride
until the mid 1990's.

Some people did it long ago, but most of them lost their boats early on.

A "blanket" statement, you obviously can't back up with experience and
show that you are unaware that there may be various causes for a boat
dragging which have little to do with the all chain rode.

actually, it comes from direct experience watching ****heads dragging down on
me.

JaxAss's boat doesn't have enough forward flotation to handle an
all-chain rode.

350# of chain and anchor in the bow of any boat harms the sailing capability of
that boat in the same fashion as having 350# of rail meat standing on the bow.

In article ,
JAXAshby wrote:


All chain rodes have been used and reasonably popular since long before
you started going to boat shows.

My boatshow going experience goes back to the 1950's. All chain rodes didn't
start to become popular until the later 1980's and didn't really hit stride
until the mid 1990's.

Some people did it long ago, but most of them lost their boats early on.

Really?

That would include all the ships that have all chain rodes, right?

--
--
Karl Denninger ) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
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karl, you of all people really should know the difference between a boat and a
ship. you should also know (I bet you do) that a ship at anchor is under
constant positive watch and control. you should also know (I bet you do) that
in a really bad approaching blow, ships head to sea away from the storm.

From: (Karl Denninger)
Date: 10/3/2004 7:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: et


In article ,
JAXAshby wrote:


All chain rodes have been used and reasonably popular since long before
you started going to boat shows.

My boatshow going experience goes back to the 1950's. All chain rodes
didn't
start to become popular until the later 1980's and didn't really hit stride
until the mid 1990's.

Some people did it long ago, but most of them lost their boats early on.

Really?

That would include all the ships that have all chain rodes, right?

--
--
Karl Denninger ) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights
Activist
http://www.denninger.net My home on the net - links to everything I do!
http://scubaforum.org Your UNCENSORED place to talk about DIVING!
http://www.spamcuda.net SPAM FREE mailboxes - FREE FOR A
LIMITED TIME!
http://genesis3.blogspot.com Musings Of A Sentient Mind

Around 10/3/2004 3:50 PM, otnmbrd wrote:

JAXAshby wrote:

a.) all chain rode only became popular on recreational boats when boat
owner
got old, fat and bought boats big enough to need need anchors over
20#, and


All chain rodes have been used and reasonably popular since long before
you started going to boat shows.


b.) all chain doesn't hold very well at all in a blow. If you doubt
that,

I do doubt it, especially since you leave "a blow" undefined. Are we
talking hurricane force?

check the anchorages during and after the next blow, see which boats
dragged --
due to an "act of god", of course -- and which did not. then check to
see how
they anchored.

My guess as to how they anchored? One word: Improperly.

Namely, not enough scope of *whatever* kind of rode.

A "blanket" statement, you obviously can't back up with experience and
show that you are unaware that there may be various causes for a boat
dragging which have little to do with the all chain rode.

I'm guessing that all this hypothetical dragging that Jax is talking
about is either due to improper technique or poor bottom, and not what
kind of rode someone chooses to use.



Whatever. For the record, my boat has always had mixed rode. Anyone
anchoring in a 14' open runabout during "a blow" would have to be nuts,
regardless of what kind of rode they're using.


--
~/Garth - 1966 Glastron V-142 Skiflite: "Blue-Boat"
"There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing about in boats."
-Kenneth Grahame, The Wind in the Willows

garth, a blow is 20 knots with waves. Under those conditions, an all-chain
rode will jerk the anchor from the bottom unless the boat owner put out a LOT
of scope (more than a proper rode of some chain and a lot of nylon) and/or hung
50 or 100 pounds of dead weight in the middle of the rode.

chain don't stretch, and when the winds pull the chain more or less tight, wind
gusts can and do put HUGE loads on the anchor system, and jerking from wave
actions as put orders of magnitude more load on the system.

Like I said, NObody chains a boat to a dock or rock on shore. Why would anyone
think they can chain a boat to a rock under the water? ans: they don't think
so. they KNOW the anchor will drag. they are just too lazy to use anything
but all chain in their electric windlass.

From: Garth Almgren
Date: 10/3/2004 7:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

Around 10/3/2004 3:50 PM, otnmbrd wrote:

JAXAshby wrote:

a.) all chain rode only became popular on recreational boats when boat
owner
got old, fat and bought boats big enough to need need anchors over
20#, and


All chain rodes have been used and reasonably popular since long before
you started going to boat shows.


b.) all chain doesn't hold very well at all in a blow. If you doubt
that,

I do doubt it, especially since you leave "a blow" undefined. Are we
talking hurricane force?

check the anchorages during and after the next blow, see which boats
dragged --
due to an "act of god", of course -- and which did not. then check to
see how
they anchored.

My guess as to how they anchored? One word: Improperly.

Namely, not enough scope of *whatever* kind of rode.

A "blanket" statement, you obviously can't back up with experience and
show that you are unaware that there may be various causes for a boat
dragging which have little to do with the all chain rode.

I'm guessing that all this hypothetical dragging that Jax is talking
about is either due to improper technique or poor bottom, and not what
kind of rode someone chooses to use.



Whatever. For the record, my boat has always had mixed rode. Anyone
anchoring in a 14' open runabout during "a blow" would have to be nuts,
regardless of what kind of rode they're using.


--
~/Garth - 1966 Glastron V-142 Skiflite: "Blue-Boat"
"There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing about in boats."
-Kenneth Grahame, The Wind in the Willows

Of course I know the difference.

As for ships heading to sea to ride out a bad blow, that depends on if
they can clearly get away from it or not, and exactly what kind and
design of ship it is that we are talking about.

My point stands - you won't find "ships" with rope being used for their
rode, and if you think that ships have not sought refuge from storms in
various harbors, you'd be wrong - many of them indeed do, sometimes
successfully, sometimes not.....

Many ships that have sought to ride out storms at sea have been unsuccessful
in doing so. Indeed, some of our more interesting scuba diving is done on
ships that have succumbed to the weather.

All things being equal I will choose to move a vessel out of harms way.
The issue becomes determining exactly which way I need to move, the speed
said vessel can achieve, the port(s) along the intended route in the event
that I am wrong about the path of said storm, and my computation (as
skipper) of the risk of moving the vessel .vs. staying in my existing
port.

This is NOT a simple calculation, and it is NEVER free of risk.

Hurricane Mitch got two ships that illustrate how you can be wrong with
EITHER decision - one which went to sea to face the storm rather than being
up against a lee shore in an uncertain harbor, and a second which reached
what it thought was a safe harbor and, while at dock, broke loose in the
storm. Both cases resulted in loss of both the vessel and life.

Does that make the skipper's decision wrong in each case? Not necessarily.

Mitch, as with many of these storms, did not go where people thought it
would. By the time it was clear WHERE it was going, escape was cut off.

Judging from the vessels that I have seen being put up in the "wrecked
boats" salvage yard around here that were sunk by Ivan, I'll simply note
that I've not yet seen one that appeared to have an all-chain rode in use.

Ivan got a number of vessels around here due to simple bad luck. They went
west from here thinking that this would put them on the west side of the
storm, which is where you want to be if you have a choice.

When it became clear that these skipper's decision was WRONG, and that they
were now sitting right under where it was going to come in, they had to
turn 180 and hightail it back east.

Not all of them made it.

Around here, getting caught on the east side of a storm with no safe
place to run to is VERY possible; the "pocket" formed by the panhandle
and peninsula is the absolute worst place in the world to get caught in a
serious blow as it is quite shallow and yet has no safe harbor available
from Appalachicola east to Steinhatchee - with many vessels unable to get
into Steinhatchee due to draft constraints.

Florida has a number of places where such errors in track can be relatively
minor in terms of degrees of diversion yet have profound consquences. The
Panhandle is one, and the west coast is another, given the usual path of
approach of storms in both areas.

I was in some ways lucky and in others it was fortunate that I did not
make a decision to run early - if I had I would have probably gone west as
did virtually everyone else, and given the maximum speed of my vessel I
would have been forced to attempt to secure her where she almost certainly
would not have survived. In this case my late decision to move - which was
only partially "voluntary" - turned out to be the saving grace, as I was
able to determine that EAST was the only possible direction I could run
under the circumstances.

It turned out to be a good call; she's undamaged, where many others with
skippers that have many, many years of experience beyond mine are total
losses.

--
--
Karl Denninger ) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
http://www.denninger.net My home on the net - links to everything I do!
http://scubaforum.org Your UNCENSORED place to talk about DIVING!
http://www.spamcuda.net SPAM FREE mailboxes - FREE FOR A LIMITED TIME!
http://genesis3.blogspot.com Musings Of A Sentient Mind


In article ,
JAXAshby wrote:


karl, you of all people really should know the difference between a boat and a
ship. you should also know (I bet you do) that a ship at anchor is under
constant positive watch and control. you should also know (I bet you do) that
in a really bad approaching blow, ships head to sea away from the storm.

From: (Karl Denninger)
Date: 10/3/2004 7:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: et


In article ,
JAXAshby wrote:


All chain rodes have been used and reasonably popular since long before
you started going to boat shows.

My boatshow going experience goes back to the 1950's. All chain rodes
didn't
start to become popular until the later 1980's and didn't really hit stride
until the mid 1990's.

Some people did it long ago, but most of them lost their boats early on.

Really?

That would include all the ships that have all chain rodes, right?

--
--
Karl Denninger ) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights
Activist
http://www.denninger.net My home on the net - links to everything I do!
http://scubaforum.org Your UNCENSORED place to talk about DIVING!
http://www.spamcuda.net SPAM FREE mailboxes - FREE FOR A
LIMITED TIME!
http://genesis3.blogspot.com Musings Of A Sentient Mind

In article ,
Garth Almgren wrote:

Whatever. For the record, my boat has always had mixed rode. Anyone
anchoring in a 14' open runabout during "a blow" would have to be nuts,
regardless of what kind of rode they're using.

A neighbor of mine anchored an 18' open runabout during a "blow" a couple
of years ago.

He sunk it four times in three days of singificant wind/wave action; it was
quite funny watching him bail it with a 5-gallon paint bucket (the only
reason this was possible is that the water in which it sunk wasn't deep
enough to allow it to go completely under) in his boxers....

--
--
Karl Denninger ) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
http://www.denninger.net My home on the net - links to everything I do!
http://scubaforum.org Your UNCENSORED place to talk about DIVING!
http://www.spamcuda.net SPAM FREE mailboxes - FREE FOR A LIMITED TIME!
http://genesis3.blogspot.com Musings Of A Sentient Mind