In article ,
JAXAshby wrote:


garth, a blow is 20 knots with waves. Under those conditions, an all-chain
rode will jerk the anchor from the bottom unless the boat owner put out a LOT
of scope (more than a proper rode of some chain and a lot of nylon) and/or hung
50 or 100 pounds of dead weight in the middle of the rode.

chain don't stretch, and when the winds pull the chain more or less tight, wind
gusts can and do put HUGE loads on the anchor system, and jerking from wave
actions as put orders of magnitude more load on the system.

Like I said, NObody chains a boat to a dock or rock on shore. Why would anyone
think they can chain a boat to a rock under the water? ans: they don't think
so. they KNOW the anchor will drag. they are just too lazy to use anything
but all chain in their electric windlass.

20 knots is not "a blow", especially not if you are behind any kind of
protection in terms of where you are anchoring (e.g. behind a barrier
island, in some kind of protected waterway, etc.)

Those are reasonably stiff operational conditions around here, but are
definitely not "a blow".

--
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Of course I know the difference.

so, why did you bring anchoring ships up in a discussion of anchoring boats?



As for ships heading to sea to ride out a bad blow, that depends on if
they can clearly get away from it or not, and exactly what kind and
design of ship it is that we are talking about.

My point stands - you won't find "ships" with rope being used for their
rode, and if you think that ships have not sought refuge from storms in
various harbors, you'd be wrong - many of them indeed do, sometimes
successfully, sometimes not.....

Many ships that have sought to ride out storms at sea have been unsuccessful
in doing so. Indeed, some of our more interesting scuba diving is done on
ships that have succumbed to the weather.

All things being equal I will choose to move a vessel out of harms way.
The issue becomes determining exactly which way I need to move, the speed
said vessel can achieve, the port(s) along the intended route in the event
that I am wrong about the path of said storm, and my computation (as
skipper) of the risk of moving the vessel .vs. staying in my existing
port.

This is NOT a simple calculation, and it is NEVER free of risk.

Hurricane Mitch got two ships that illustrate how you can be wrong with
EITHER decision - one which went to sea to face the storm rather than being
up against a lee shore in an uncertain harbor, and a second which reached
what it thought was a safe harbor and, while at dock, broke loose in the
storm. Both cases resulted in loss of both the vessel and life.

Does that make the skipper's decision wrong in each case? Not necessarily.

Mitch, as with many of these storms, did not go where people thought it
would. By the time it was clear WHERE it was going, escape was cut off.

Judging from the vessels that I have seen being put up in the "wrecked
boats" salvage yard around here that were sunk by Ivan, I'll simply note
that I've not yet seen one that appeared to have an all-chain rode in use.

Ivan got a number of vessels around here due to simple bad luck. They went
west from here thinking that this would put them on the west side of the
storm, which is where you want to be if you have a choice.

When it became clear that these skipper's decision was WRONG, and that they
were now sitting right under where it was going to come in, they had to
turn 180 and hightail it back east.

Not all of them made it.

Around here, getting caught on the east side of a storm with no safe
place to run to is VERY possible; the "pocket" formed by the panhandle
and peninsula is the absolute worst place in the world to get caught in a
serious blow as it is quite shallow and yet has no safe harbor available
from Appalachicola east to Steinhatchee - with many vessels unable to get
into Steinhatchee due to draft constraints.

Florida has a number of places where such errors in track can be relatively
minor in terms of degrees of diversion yet have profound consquences. The
Panhandle is one, and the west coast is another, given the usual path of
approach of storms in both areas.

I was in some ways lucky and in others it was fortunate that I did not
make a decision to run early - if I had I would have probably gone west as
did virtually everyone else, and given the maximum speed of my vessel I
would have been forced to attempt to secure her where she almost certainly
would not have survived. In this case my late decision to move - which was
only partially "voluntary" - turned out to be the saving grace, as I was
able to determine that EAST was the only possible direction I could run
under the circumstances.

It turned out to be a good call; she's undamaged, where many others with
skippers that have many, many years of experience beyond mine are total
losses.

--
--
Karl Denninger ) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights
Activist
http://www.denninger.net My home on the net - links to everything I do!
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LIMITED TIME!
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In article ,
JAXAshby wrote:


karl, you of all people really should know the difference between a boat and
a
ship. you should also know (I bet you do) that a ship at anchor is under
constant positive watch and control. you should also know (I bet you do)
that
in a really bad approaching blow, ships head to sea away from the storm.

From: (Karl Denninger)
Date: 10/3/2004 7:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: et


In article ,
JAXAshby wrote:


All chain rodes have been used and reasonably popular since long before
you started going to boat shows.

My boatshow going experience goes back to the 1950's. All chain rodes
didn't
start to become popular until the later 1980's and didn't really hit
stride
until the mid 1990's.

Some people did it long ago, but most of them lost their boats early on.

Really?

That would include all the ships that have all chain rodes, right?

--
--
Karl Denninger ) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights
Activist
http://www.denninger.net My home on the net - links to everything I do!
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DIVING!
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LIMITED TIME!
http://genesis3.blogspot.com Musings Of A Sentient Mind

20 knots is not "a blow"

it is if you are on all chain, and there is any wave action.

especially not if you are behind any kind of
protection in terms of where you are anchoring (e.g. behind a barrier
island, in some kind of protected waterway, etc.)

Those are reasonably stiff operational conditions around here, but are
definitely not "a blow".

--
--
Karl Denninger ) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights
Activist
http://www.denninger.net My home on the net - links to everything I do!
http://scubaforum.org Your UNCENSORED place to talk about DIVING!
http://www.spamcuda.net SPAM FREE mailboxes - FREE FOR A
LIMITED TIME!
http://genesis3.blogspot.com Musings Of A Sentient Mind

Around 10/3/2004 5:24 PM, Karl Denninger wrote:

In article ,
JAXAshby wrote:


garth, a blow is 20 knots with waves. Under those conditions, an all-chain
rode will jerk the anchor from the bottom unless the boat owner put out a LOT
of scope (more than a proper rode of some chain and a lot of nylon) and/or hung
50 or 100 pounds of dead weight in the middle of the rode.

The nice thing with chain is that the rode *itself* is dead weight. You
can use less scope with an all chain rode than with a mixed or pure
nylon rode.

chain don't stretch, and when the winds pull the chain more or less tight,

Which won't happen, unless A) you don't have enough scope or B) there is
a _lot_ of freakin' wind.

Do you have /any/ idea how much wind force would be required to pull any
appropriate scope of chain *straight*??

wind
gusts can and do put HUGE loads on the anchor system, and jerking from wave
actions as put orders of magnitude more load on the system.

Like I said, NObody chains a boat to a dock or rock on shore.

Why are you comparing an anchor to a dock or rock on shore?

Why would anyone
think they can chain a boat to a rock under the water?

Why are you comparing an anchor to a rock under the water?

ans: they don't think
so. they KNOW the anchor will drag.

Drag, probably not. Reset, yes. An anchor isn't this immovable object
you seem to think it is.

they are just too lazy to use anything
but all chain in their electric windlass.

It's not a matter of laziness. All chain has several advantages over all
nylon, not the least of which is chafe resistance and weight.


20 knots is not "a blow", especially not if you are behind any kind of
protection in terms of where you are anchoring (e.g. behind a barrier
island, in some kind of protected waterway, etc.)

Those are reasonably stiff operational conditions around here, but are
definitely not "a blow".

I've been out in 20 knot winds (not by choice), but I sure wouldn't want
to anchor in them!


--
~/Garth - 1966 Glastron V-142 Skiflite: "Blue-Boat"
"There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing about in boats."
-Kenneth Grahame, The Wind in the Willows

JAXAshby wrote:
All chain rodes have been used and reasonably popular since long before
you started going to boat shows.


My boatshow going experience goes back to the 1950's. All chain rodes didn't
start to become popular until the later 1980's and didn't really hit stride
until the mid 1990's.

Some people did it long ago, but most of them lost their boats early on.

Sorry, Doodles. My 26' sloop had it in the 60's and I knew many others
with the same. None that I know of had any problems when properly employed.

otn

JAXAshby wrote:
A "blanket" statement, you obviously can't back up with experience and
show that you are unaware that there may be various causes for a boat
dragging which have little to do with the all chain rode.


actually, it comes from direct experience watching ****heads dragging down on
me.

So ..... In other words, YOU have NO experience using "all" chain, just
some experience watching others with the same little experience, screw
up...... and from this typical, scanty information you make a "Doodles"
assumption.

otn

JAXAshby wrote:
JaxAss's boat doesn't have enough forward flotation to handle an
all-chain rode.


350# of chain and anchor in the bow of any boat harms the sailing capability of
that boat in the same fashion as having 350# of rail meat standing on the bow.


More Doodles assumptions based on scanty information.

The nice thing with chain is that the rode *itself* is dead weight. You
can use less scope with an all chain rode than with a mixed or pure
nylon rode.

chain don't stretch, and when the winds pull the chain more or less tight,

Which won't happen, unless A) you don't have enough scope or B) there is
a _lot_ of freakin' wind.

Do you have /any/ idea how much wind force would be required to pull any
appropriate scope of chain *straight*??

wind
gusts can and do put HUGE loads on the anchor system, and jerking from wave
actions as put orders of magnitude more load on the system.

Like I said, NObody chains a boat to a dock or rock on shore.

Why are you comparing an anchor to a dock or rock on shore?

Why would anyone
think they can chain a boat to a rock under the water?

Why are you comparing an anchor to a rock under the water?

ans: they don't think
so. they KNOW the anchor will drag.

Drag, probably not. Reset, yes. An anchor isn't this immovable object
you seem to think it is.

they are just too lazy to use anything
but all chain in their electric windlass.

It's not a matter of laziness. All chain has several advantages over all
nylon, not the least of which is chafe resistance and weight.


20 knots is not "a blow", especially not if you are behind any kind of
protection in terms of where you are anchoring (e.g. behind a barrier
island, in some kind of protected waterway, etc.)

Those are reasonably stiff operational conditions around here, but are
definitely not "a blow".

I've been out in 20 knot winds (not by choice), but I sure wouldn't want
to anchor in them!


--
~/Garth - 1966 Glastron V-142 Skiflite: "Blue-Boat"
"There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing about in boats."
-Kenneth Grahame, The Wind in the Willows

The nice thing with chain is that the rode *itself* is dead weight. You
can use less scope with an all chain rode than with a mixed or pure
nylon rode.

bull****. what an abjectly stupid thing to post. dumb cluck, have you ANY
idea what an anchor is? go back to study hall, little boy. lunch hour isn't
for 40 or 50 minutes from now.

Which won't happen, unless A) you don't have enough scope or B) there is
a _lot_ of freakin' wind.


yeah. a _lot_ of freakin' wind. maybe 20 knots, idgit.