On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 16:48:31 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/17/2015 12:59 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 12:44:43 -0500, Abit Loco
wrote:

You keep saying its not similar to actual flying. How do the control surfaces behave
differently? What is the power to weight ration of the 'real' airplanes to which you
refer? Do RC airplanes have a lot more power to weight? Less?

When you are flying a real plane, you feel the surfaces reacting in
the seat of your pants


Heh. You feel a hell of a lot more than that. Take off on a windy day
with a lot of turbulence. Better yet, try landing under the same
conditions with a stiff crosswind.


The effect is the same on an RC plane.
--

Guns don't cause problems. The behavior
of certain gun owners causes problems.

On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 14:47:49 -0800 (PST), True North wrote:

I'm not sure it's a good idea to encourage Johnny to try real flying.
If he has half the problems with a real plane as he does with his toy versions....Lord help the local folk.

You have to admit, it's kind of fun watching Krause and Eriksson 'gang up' on Herring
over something so ridiculous.

What a laugh!
--

Guns don't cause problems. The behavior
of certain gun owners causes problems.

On 2/17/2015 5:58 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 16:34:20 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/17/2015 12:16 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 19:54:29 -0500, Keyser Söze wrote:

On 2/16/15 7:08 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/16/2015 6:31 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 12:25:26 PM UTC-5, John H. wrote:

The big difference between simulators/real airplanes and RC airplanes
- in sims or
real planes, the nose of the plane is in front of you. With an RC
plane, at least
part of the time, the nose is pointed at you. That means the left and
right controls
are reversed. This, I believe, is what causes the most problems, at
least for me.

Another related difference is that pilots in a real plane has a seat
of the pants, first person view. Not so with RC.

Something that helps newbies to RC is that when the airplane is flying
towards you and the controls are reversed, your can turn your body so
the transmitter is faced the same way as the plane, but look back over
your shoulder at the plane. That way the stick moves to the right,
the plane moves to the right. It's a crutch, but with some more stick
time it'll come naturally.



I don't think there's much at all in common comparing RC flying and
flying a real airplane. Speed scale is totally different. Turns
and maneuvers are not anything close to being realistic to flying an
airplane.

I see it as a fun hobby for many but to compare it to actually flying
an airplane it isn't even close.



What happens when your toy plane crashes? It breaks.
What happens when a real airplane crashes? Death and destruction.

And that, my friends, is the big difference!



The chances of you crashing a real airplane are pretty slim compared to
crashing a RC. First of all, while under instruction your CFI isn't
keen on crashing. By the time you are ready to solo you will be well
qualified in the eyes of your instructor.

When you consider the number of people taking flight lessons every day
across the country and the number of small aircraft pilots flying every
day, the safety record is pretty high and the number of crashes are low.


Have you ever 'buddy-boxed' with an RC instructor pilot? While under instruction, the
instructor isn't keen on you ruining your airplane. He has a switch which immediately
gives him control of the aircraft if he thinks trouble is approaching.



When I was actively flying the thought of ruining the airplane never
crossed my mind.

John, if you want to believe that flying a $200 airplane by remote
control emulates flying a real airplane, more power to you.
I see them as two completely different experiences that require totally
different skill sets. Any licensed pilot can remember every single
detail of their first solo flight when the CFI was no longer sitting
beside you and once you went up ... getting down alive was entirely
dependent on you. Second is the cross country phase where navigation
becomes key. With RC flying you don't lose where you are. I remember
some of the early flight lessons when the instructor would tell me
to head back to the airport ... and I just stared at the ground
wondering where the hell I was. These have nothing to do with
controlling or flying the airplane but are part of "real" flying.

On Tuesday, February 17, 2015 at 5:10:36 PM UTC-5, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 2/17/15 4:37 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/17/2015 12:25 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 20:18:55 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/16/2015 7:54 PM, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 2/16/15 7:08 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/16/2015 6:31 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 12:25:26 PM UTC-5, John H. wrote:

The big difference between simulators/real airplanes and RC
airplanes
- in sims or
real planes, the nose of the plane is in front of you. With an RC
plane, at least
part of the time, the nose is pointed at you. That means the left
and
right controls
are reversed. This, I believe, is what causes the most problems, at
least for me.

Another related difference is that pilots in a real plane has a seat
of the pants, first person view. Not so with RC.

Something that helps newbies to RC is that when the airplane is
flying
towards you and the controls are reversed, your can turn your body so
the transmitter is faced the same way as the plane, but look back
over
your shoulder at the plane. That way the stick moves to the right,
the plane moves to the right. It's a crutch, but with some more
stick
time it'll come naturally.



I don't think there's much at all in common comparing RC flying and
flying a real airplane. Speed scale is totally different. Turns
and maneuvers are not anything close to being realistic to flying an
airplane.

I see it as a fun hobby for many but to compare it to actually flying
an airplane it isn't even close.



What happens when your toy plane crashes? It breaks.
What happens when a real airplane crashes? Death and destruction.





True.

I've seen some large RC planes that appear to be very realistic in
flight, maneuvers, take-offs and landings but the smaller ones I've
seen people flying are way out of scale to anything real. They can
do turns, climbs, etc. that would cause a human pilot to pass out
or worse.

The bigger ones fly slower, maneuver more slowly and look much more
realistic.

The smaller ones, depending on the configuration, can fly slower,
maneuver more
slowly and also look very realistic. My Apprentice, with its
tremendous wing area,
can stay aloft at little more than a walking speed.

Something like this, on the other hand, requires some speed just to
stay aloft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=uN5BD4e55hE

I am not knocking those who enjoy the RC hobby thing. I just don't
think you can come close to comparing it to actual flying.



Why not? Granted, you're not in the airplane, but other than that
what's the big
difference?

Well, I've done both. Again I am not knocking your RC hobby but you
really cannot compare the two. Like I suggested in a different post,
go take an introductory flight lesson. Then you can compare for yourself.





This is really funny stuff...thanks, Luddite. And remember, driving
that RC boat in a swimming pool is just like driving a real boat through
a ferocious inlet. I mean, what's the difference?

Big difference there.

What about driving the RC boat through a scaled (to it) ferocious inlet? Other than your point of view, would that be similar? Of course it would, the technique and dangers (at least to the boat) would be the same.

On Tuesday, February 17, 2015 at 4:37:37 PM UTC-5, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/17/2015 12:25 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 20:18:55 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/16/2015 7:54 PM, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 2/16/15 7:08 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/16/2015 6:31 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 12:25:26 PM UTC-5, John H. wrote:

The big difference between simulators/real airplanes and RC airplanes
- in sims or
real planes, the nose of the plane is in front of you. With an RC
plane, at least
part of the time, the nose is pointed at you. That means the left and
right controls
are reversed. This, I believe, is what causes the most problems, at
least for me.

Another related difference is that pilots in a real plane has a seat
of the pants, first person view. Not so with RC.

Something that helps newbies to RC is that when the airplane is flying
towards you and the controls are reversed, your can turn your body so
the transmitter is faced the same way as the plane, but look back over
your shoulder at the plane. That way the stick moves to the right,
the plane moves to the right. It's a crutch, but with some more stick
time it'll come naturally.



I don't think there's much at all in common comparing RC flying and
flying a real airplane. Speed scale is totally different. Turns
and maneuvers are not anything close to being realistic to flying an
airplane.

I see it as a fun hobby for many but to compare it to actually flying
an airplane it isn't even close.



What happens when your toy plane crashes? It breaks.
What happens when a real airplane crashes? Death and destruction.





True.

I've seen some large RC planes that appear to be very realistic in
flight, maneuvers, take-offs and landings but the smaller ones I've
seen people flying are way out of scale to anything real. They can
do turns, climbs, etc. that would cause a human pilot to pass out
or worse.

The bigger ones fly slower, maneuver more slowly and look much more
realistic.

The smaller ones, depending on the configuration, can fly slower, maneuver more
slowly and also look very realistic. My Apprentice, with its tremendous wing area,
can stay aloft at little more than a walking speed.

Something like this, on the other hand, requires some speed just to stay aloft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=uN5BD4e55hE

I am not knocking those who enjoy the RC hobby thing. I just don't
think you can come close to comparing it to actual flying.



Why not? Granted, you're not in the airplane, but other than that what's the big
difference?

Well, I've done both. Again I am not knocking your RC hobby but you
really cannot compare the two. Like I suggested in a different post,
go take an introductory flight lesson. Then you can compare for yourself..

So have I. Haven't landed a full scale, but have flown a 150, and been up in a 182, Beechcraft Bonanza (regular and V tail) and Baron, and a Zlin for some aerobatics. A little stick time in most. Funny, the plane reacted pretty much the same to control inputs as any other plane, RC or full scale.

But you were correct in your other post. Full scale is easier to *fly*. All of the procedural stuff and instruments are much more involved, but the mechanics of flight are the *same*. Except RC lacks the seat of the pants and FPV input that full scale pilots enjoy.

You're projecting the arrogance that typical full scale pilots exhibit. The jokes about that are endless! I've also spent lots of time in airport ramp towers, pilots lounges, and major airline OCCs (operational control centers). I know a good bit about that.

On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 16:46:45 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/17/2015 12:44 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 20:35:18 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/16/2015 8:18 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 7:08:10 PM UTC-5, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/16/2015 6:31 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 12:25:26 PM UTC-5, John H. wrote:

The big difference between simulators/real airplanes and RC airplanes - in sims or
real planes, the nose of the plane is in front of you. With an RC plane, at least
part of the time, the nose is pointed at you. That means the left and right controls
are reversed. This, I believe, is what causes the most problems, at least for me.

Another related difference is that pilots in a real plane has a seat of the pants, first person view. Not so with RC.

Something that helps newbies to RC is that when the airplane is flying towards you and the controls are reversed, your can turn your body so the transmitter is faced the same way as the plane, but look back over your shoulder at the plane. That way the stick moves to the right, the plane moves to the right. It's a crutch, but with some more stick time it'll come naturally.



I don't think there's much at all in common comparing RC flying and
flying a real airplane. Speed scale is totally different. Turns
and maneuvers are not anything close to being realistic to flying an
airplane.

I see it as a fun hobby for many but to compare it to actually flying
an airplane it isn't even close.

If you think about it, it's very similar. The same rules apply, the aircraft reacts the same way. RC planes can do things that real planes can't, but they also suffer from the fact that they don't fly quite the same way. Said another way, the air molecules are still the same size, while the wings and control surfaces of RC planes are far smaller. That's why truly scale RC planes don't tend to fly very well.

Good RC pilots can fly very realistically. I saw a jet done up in Fed-Ex colors being flown slowly and with coordinated turns. It looked very real, except for the size, although it was still large with about a 10 foot wingspan.

But while you may have not meant it, your attitude is common with "real" pilots. They think of RC planes as toys. And they crash them when they first try to fly them, thinking that if they can fly the real thing, they can fly the toy. They cannot.

Real pilots hope to walk away from a crash. RC pilots walk towards it!



I wasn't knocking RC flying. I know a lot of people enjoy it. I also
know a lot of people who think it's similar to actual flying (which it
isn't). As you point out the scale is totally different, the power to
weight ratio is different and the control surfaces behave differently.
I've tried a couple once in flight. You're right. I can land an
airplane but I'd crash an RC if I tried applying my flying instincts and
control.

Back when I was flying I used to play with whatever the current version
of Microsoft Flight Simulator was at the time. I had the yoke and pedal
controller set up. It was not exactly like flying but was pretty close
in many ways, especially how the wing surfaces reacted in the simulator.
Even more realistic when you added in a little "weather" and turbulence.
I think that was much closer to the "feel" of actually flying than a RC
plane can ever be.


Flight simulators such as Microsoft's have very, very little resemblance to RC
flying.

You keep saying its not similar to actual flying. How do the control surfaces behave
differently? What is the power to weight ration of the 'real' airplanes to which you
refer? Do RC airplanes have a lot more power to weight? Less?

Here are the motor specs for my motor:

Power 15 Brushless Outrunner Motor, 950Kv
Key Features

Equivalent to a 15-size glow engine for sport and scale airplanes weighing 36–56
oz (1020–1590 g)
Ideal for 3D airplanes weighing 32–40 oz (910–1135 g)
Ideal for models requiring up to 575 watts of power
High-torque, direct-drive alternative to inrunner brushless motors
Includes mount, prop adapters and mounting hardware
External rotor design—5mm shaft can easily be reversed for alternative motor
installations
Slotted 14-pole outrunner design
High-quality construction with ball bearings and hardened steel shaft

Here are my airplane specs:

Apprentice S 15e RTF with SAFE
Product Specifications
Wingspan: 59.0 in (1500mm)
Overall Length: 42.5 in (1080mm)
Wing Area: 515 sq. in. (33.2 sq. dm.)
Flying Weight: 49.0 oz (1390 g)
Motor Size: 15-size brushless outrunner
Radio: Spektrum DX5e transmitter (included)
CG (center of gravity): 3-1/8 in (79.0mm) back from the leading edge of wing
Prop Size: 11 x 8
Speed Control : 30-amp brushless (installed)
Recommended Battery: 11.1V 3S 3200mAh LiPo (included)
Flaps: No
Retracts: No
Control Throw (Ailerons): Low: 0.71 in (18mm); High: 0.91 in (23mm)
Control Throw (Elevator): Low: 0.71 in (18mm); High: 0.91 in (23mm)
Control Throw (Rudder): Low: 1.10 in (28mm); High: 1.35 in (35mm)

How does one compare the 'power to weight' ratio?

RC planes can climb faster than any comparable
"real" airplane. How fast can you climb? Pretty much like a rocket.
A real airplane doesn't climb like that and to try it would result in
a stall very quickly. A real airplane requires taking weight,
temperature, altitude and air density as factors. With RC flying, none
of those issues matter much.

Try flying a real airplane. Then you are qualified to judge and compare.

If I tried to climb vertically with the Apprentice, I'd be in a stall very quickly.
if the power is up it will do a loop, but not climb like the 3D planes discussed
earlier.

It's absolutely true that I don't worry much about temperature and air density as
factors. Weight and its distribution are important, as is altitude. Too high and I've
violated FCC regs and/or lost sight of the aircraft.

A real F/A-18 will probably climb faster than any of the scale RC aircraft and is
probably much faster. I've never seen any RC aircraft that could climb at 50,000
feet/min or fly 1000 mph, and that would include a scale RC F/A-18. But, maybe you
have.
--

Guns don't cause problems. The behavior
of certain gun owners causes problems.

On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 17:08:24 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:


On 2/17/2015 12:44 PM, Abit Loco wrote:

On 2/16/2015 8:18 PM, wrote:

Not sure which of you two said this ....


Flight simulators such as Microsoft's have very, very little
resemblance to RC
flying.


.... however it supports what I've been saying.

Microsoft's Flight Simulator is not perfect but it can be close to the
simulation of flying a "real" airplane, especially when set up for
realistic conditions such as weather, winds, etc.

If it has "very, very little resemblance to RC flying" then I rest my case.


As usual, you are absolutely correct!

Geeez.
--

Guns don't cause problems. The behavior
of certain gun owners causes problems.

On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 18:17:23 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/17/2015 5:58 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 16:34:20 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/17/2015 12:16 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 19:54:29 -0500, Keyser Söze wrote:

On 2/16/15 7:08 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/16/2015 6:31 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 12:25:26 PM UTC-5, John H. wrote:

The big difference between simulators/real airplanes and RC airplanes
- in sims or
real planes, the nose of the plane is in front of you. With an RC
plane, at least
part of the time, the nose is pointed at you. That means the left and
right controls
are reversed. This, I believe, is what causes the most problems, at
least for me.

Another related difference is that pilots in a real plane has a seat
of the pants, first person view. Not so with RC.

Something that helps newbies to RC is that when the airplane is flying
towards you and the controls are reversed, your can turn your body so
the transmitter is faced the same way as the plane, but look back over
your shoulder at the plane. That way the stick moves to the right,
the plane moves to the right. It's a crutch, but with some more stick
time it'll come naturally.



I don't think there's much at all in common comparing RC flying and
flying a real airplane. Speed scale is totally different. Turns
and maneuvers are not anything close to being realistic to flying an
airplane.

I see it as a fun hobby for many but to compare it to actually flying
an airplane it isn't even close.



What happens when your toy plane crashes? It breaks.
What happens when a real airplane crashes? Death and destruction.

And that, my friends, is the big difference!



The chances of you crashing a real airplane are pretty slim compared to
crashing a RC. First of all, while under instruction your CFI isn't
keen on crashing. By the time you are ready to solo you will be well
qualified in the eyes of your instructor.

When you consider the number of people taking flight lessons every day
across the country and the number of small aircraft pilots flying every
day, the safety record is pretty high and the number of crashes are low.


Have you ever 'buddy-boxed' with an RC instructor pilot? While under instruction, the
instructor isn't keen on you ruining your airplane. He has a switch which immediately
gives him control of the aircraft if he thinks trouble is approaching.



When I was actively flying the thought of ruining the airplane never
crossed my mind.

John, if you want to believe that flying a $200 airplane by remote
control emulates flying a real airplane, more power to you.
I see them as two completely different experiences that require totally
different skill sets. Any licensed pilot can remember every single
detail of their first solo flight when the CFI was no longer sitting
beside you and once you went up ... getting down alive was entirely
dependent on you. Second is the cross country phase where navigation
becomes key. With RC flying you don't lose where you are. I remember
some of the early flight lessons when the instructor would tell me
to head back to the airport ... and I just stared at the ground
wondering where the hell I was. These have nothing to do with
controlling or flying the airplane but are part of "real" flying.

If you think there are *no* similarities between flying an RC aircraft (of any cost)
and flying the real airplane, then more power to you.

Now you're comparing flying an RC airplane to getting a pilot's license for a real
airplane. Why not compare it to flying and landing an F/A-18 on a carrier. I'll bet
that's much different from landing an RC airplane in the grass.

True, when flying an RC airplane, the pilot never loses where *he* is. But, they
often lose where the airplane is. Happened to me a couple weeks ago. I flew the
airplane beyond my ability to see it. The clouds were much the same color as the
airplane. Had to yell for help. Young guy came and got it back for me.

Just calm down a bit. No one is trying to denigrate your experience in getting your
pilot's license. And, when you pushed that stick left or right, you were steering the
airplane, whether you like it or not!
--

Guns don't cause problems. The behavior
of certain gun owners causes problems.

On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 17:55:42 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/17/2015 5:47 PM, True North wrote:
I'm not sure it's a good idea to encourage Johnny to try real flying.
If he has half the problems with a real plane as he does with his toy versions....Lord help the local folk.



RC "pilots" take great umbrage when you call their airplanes "toys".

This people disagree though...

http://www.toysrus.com/family/index.jsp?categoryId=2290621

I know quite a few RC pilots, and we all call our airplanes toys!
--

Guns don't cause problems. The behavior
of certain gun owners causes problems.

On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 15:29:23 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Tuesday, February 17, 2015 at 4:37:37 PM UTC-5, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/17/2015 12:25 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 20:18:55 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/16/2015 7:54 PM, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 2/16/15 7:08 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/16/2015 6:31 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 12:25:26 PM UTC-5, John H. wrote:

The big difference between simulators/real airplanes and RC airplanes
- in sims or
real planes, the nose of the plane is in front of you. With an RC
plane, at least
part of the time, the nose is pointed at you. That means the left and
right controls
are reversed. This, I believe, is what causes the most problems, at
least for me.

Another related difference is that pilots in a real plane has a seat
of the pants, first person view. Not so with RC.

Something that helps newbies to RC is that when the airplane is flying
towards you and the controls are reversed, your can turn your body so
the transmitter is faced the same way as the plane, but look back over
your shoulder at the plane. That way the stick moves to the right,
the plane moves to the right. It's a crutch, but with some more stick
time it'll come naturally.



I don't think there's much at all in common comparing RC flying and
flying a real airplane. Speed scale is totally different. Turns
and maneuvers are not anything close to being realistic to flying an
airplane.

I see it as a fun hobby for many but to compare it to actually flying
an airplane it isn't even close.



What happens when your toy plane crashes? It breaks.
What happens when a real airplane crashes? Death and destruction.





True.

I've seen some large RC planes that appear to be very realistic in
flight, maneuvers, take-offs and landings but the smaller ones I've
seen people flying are way out of scale to anything real. They can
do turns, climbs, etc. that would cause a human pilot to pass out
or worse.

The bigger ones fly slower, maneuver more slowly and look much more
realistic.

The smaller ones, depending on the configuration, can fly slower, maneuver more
slowly and also look very realistic. My Apprentice, with its tremendous wing area,
can stay aloft at little more than a walking speed.

Something like this, on the other hand, requires some speed just to stay aloft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=uN5BD4e55hE

I am not knocking those who enjoy the RC hobby thing. I just don't
think you can come close to comparing it to actual flying.



Why not? Granted, you're not in the airplane, but other than that what's the big
difference?

Well, I've done both. Again I am not knocking your RC hobby but you
really cannot compare the two. Like I suggested in a different post,
go take an introductory flight lesson. Then you can compare for yourself.

So have I. Haven't landed a full scale, but have flown a 150, and been up in a 182, Beechcraft Bonanza (regular and V tail) and Baron, and a Zlin for some aerobatics. A little stick time in most. Funny, the plane reacted pretty much the same to control inputs as any other plane, RC or full scale.

But you were correct in your other post. Full scale is easier to *fly*. All of the procedural stuff and instruments are much more involved, but the mechanics of flight are the *same*. Except RC lacks the seat of the pants and FPV input that full scale pilots enjoy.

You're projecting the arrogance that typical full scale pilots exhibit. The jokes about that are endless! I've also spent lots of time in airport ramp towers, pilots lounges, and major airline OCCs (operational control centers). I know a good bit about that.

Betcha none of those 'real' pilots are as arrogant as an Army Warrant Officer
helicopter pilot!
--

Guns don't cause problems. The behavior
of certain gun owners causes problems.