On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 10:38:25 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Tuesday, February 17, 2015 at 12:44:42 PM UTC-5, John H. wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 20:35:18 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/16/2015 8:18 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 7:08:10 PM UTC-5, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/16/2015 6:31 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 12:25:26 PM UTC-5, John H. wrote:

The big difference between simulators/real airplanes and RC airplanes - in sims or
real planes, the nose of the plane is in front of you. With an RC plane, at least
part of the time, the nose is pointed at you. That means the left and right controls
are reversed. This, I believe, is what causes the most problems, at least for me.

Another related difference is that pilots in a real plane has a seat of the pants, first person view. Not so with RC.

Something that helps newbies to RC is that when the airplane is flying towards you and the controls are reversed, your can turn your body so the transmitter is faced the same way as the plane, but look back over your shoulder at the plane. That way the stick moves to the right, the plane moves to the right. It's a crutch, but with some more stick time it'll come naturally.



I don't think there's much at all in common comparing RC flying and
flying a real airplane. Speed scale is totally different. Turns
and maneuvers are not anything close to being realistic to flying an
airplane.

I see it as a fun hobby for many but to compare it to actually flying
an airplane it isn't even close.

If you think about it, it's very similar. The same rules apply, the aircraft reacts the same way. RC planes can do things that real planes can't, but they also suffer from the fact that they don't fly quite the same way. Said another way, the air molecules are still the same size, while the wings and control surfaces of RC planes are far smaller. That's why truly scale RC planes don't tend to fly very well.

Good RC pilots can fly very realistically. I saw a jet done up in Fed-Ex colors being flown slowly and with coordinated turns. It looked very real, except for the size, although it was still large with about a 10 foot wingspan.

But while you may have not meant it, your attitude is common with "real" pilots. They think of RC planes as toys. And they crash them when they first try to fly them, thinking that if they can fly the real thing, they can fly the toy. They cannot.

Real pilots hope to walk away from a crash. RC pilots walk towards it!



I wasn't knocking RC flying. I know a lot of people enjoy it. I also
know a lot of people who think it's similar to actual flying (which it
isn't). As you point out the scale is totally different, the power to
weight ratio is different and the control surfaces behave differently.
I've tried a couple once in flight. You're right. I can land an
airplane but I'd crash an RC if I tried applying my flying instincts and
control.

Back when I was flying I used to play with whatever the current version
of Microsoft Flight Simulator was at the time. I had the yoke and pedal
controller set up. It was not exactly like flying but was pretty close
in many ways, especially how the wing surfaces reacted in the simulator.
Even more realistic when you added in a little "weather" and turbulence.
I think that was much closer to the "feel" of actually flying than a RC
plane can ever be.


Flight simulators such as Microsoft's have very, very little resemblance to RC
flying.

You keep saying its not similar to actual flying. How do the control surfaces behave
differently? What is the power to weight ration of the 'real' airplanes to which you
refer? Do RC airplanes have a lot more power to weight? Less?

I'm not aware of any full scale prop driven planes that can hang, or hover, on their prop. Some of of the most powerful and capable stunt planes flown by Patty Wagstaff, Matt Chapman, etc... can be flown level, pulled to verticle with full power, and they will stop climbing after some distance and go into the classic tail slide.

Well, that's a special capability for 3D aircraft - to which I've not yet evolved.
Maybe in another ten years.


RC planes *can* have a P/W ratio far higher than what is possible in full scale. I'm sure you've seen some video or someone at your field that can fly in "3D" mode. A properly equipped RC plane can hang virtually motionless on its prop for some time, then accelerate straight up.

I think it's an interesting question for 'regular' RC airplanes.

Same for RC helicopters. They can do things that no full scale heli could ever attempt. The laws of physics just can't be broken.

Oh, and I agree with you about how similar flying RC and full scale really is. I've said it before, but with RC you lose the 1st person, seat of the pants experience that full scale pilots have. But the wings, rudder, elevator, ailerons, vertical and horizontal stabilizers all do the same exact things on RC as they do with full scale aircraft. The biggest difference is where the pilots are, in respect to their planes, while manipulating the controls.

And, weather and turbulence can definitely play a part in RC flying!
--

Guns don't cause problems. The behavior
of certain gun owners causes problems.

On Tuesday, February 17, 2015 at 11:10:34 AM UTC-5, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 2/17/15 11:00 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 09:41:20 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/17/2015 7:24 AM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 9:07:56 PM UTC-5, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 2/16/15 8:19 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 6:57:42 PM UTC-5, Keyser Söze wrote:

Works with other toys, too, like model railroad layouts.

That's stupid. You don't have to steer a model railroad.


You've heard of switches, right?

Switches move the train from one track to another.

The track itself "steers" the train.



True but pilots don't "steer" a plane either. They fly them.


I think the point is I can start the G gauge train that runs around
the house and go for a boat ride. It will still be going when I get
back.
You can't walk away from the controller of your RC plane and expect it
to still be flying safely even a minute later.


Your toys are better than Herring's toys?


Yes, if ability to run without steering is the criteria. But, now we're back where you started.

Abit Loco wrote:
On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 10:38:25 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Tuesday, February 17, 2015 at 12:44:42 PM UTC-5, John H. wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 20:35:18 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/16/2015 8:18 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 7:08:10 PM UTC-5, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/16/2015 6:31 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 12:25:26 PM UTC-5, John H. wrote:

The big difference between simulators/real airplanes and RC airplanes - in sims or
real planes, the nose of the plane is in front of you. With an RC plane, at least
part of the time, the nose is pointed at you. That means the left and right controls
are reversed. This, I believe, is what causes the most problems, at least for me.

Another related difference is that pilots in a real plane has a
seat of the pants, first person view. Not so with RC.

Something that helps newbies to RC is that when the airplane is
flying towards you and the controls are reversed, your can turn
your body so the transmitter is faced the same way as the plane,
but look back over your shoulder at the plane. That way the stick
moves to the right, the plane moves to the right. It's a crutch,
but with some more stick time it'll come naturally.



I don't think there's much at all in common comparing RC flying and
flying a real airplane. Speed scale is totally different. Turns
and maneuvers are not anything close to being realistic to flying an
airplane.

I see it as a fun hobby for many but to compare it to actually flying
an airplane it isn't even close.

If you think about it, it's very similar. The same rules apply, the
aircraft reacts the same way. RC planes can do things that real
planes can't, but they also suffer from the fact that they don't fly
quite the same way. Said another way, the air molecules are still
the same size, while the wings and control surfaces of RC planes are
far smaller. That's why truly scale RC planes don't tend to fly very well.

Good RC pilots can fly very realistically. I saw a jet done up in
Fed-Ex colors being flown slowly and with coordinated turns. It
looked very real, except for the size, although it was still large
with about a 10 foot wingspan.

But while you may have not meant it, your attitude is common with
"real" pilots. They think of RC planes as toys. And they crash them
when they first try to fly them, thinking that if they can fly the
real thing, they can fly the toy. They cannot.

Real pilots hope to walk away from a crash. RC pilots walk towards it!



I wasn't knocking RC flying. I know a lot of people enjoy it. I also
know a lot of people who think it's similar to actual flying (which it
isn't). As you point out the scale is totally different, the power to
weight ratio is different and the control surfaces behave differently.
I've tried a couple once in flight. You're right. I can land an
airplane but I'd crash an RC if I tried applying my flying instincts and
control.

Back when I was flying I used to play with whatever the current version
of Microsoft Flight Simulator was at the time. I had the yoke and pedal
controller set up. It was not exactly like flying but was pretty close
in many ways, especially how the wing surfaces reacted in the simulator.
Even more realistic when you added in a little "weather" and turbulence.
I think that was much closer to the "feel" of actually flying than a RC
plane can ever be.


Flight simulators such as Microsoft's have very, very little resemblance to RC
flying.

You keep saying its not similar to actual flying. How do the control surfaces behave
differently? What is the power to weight ration of the 'real' airplanes to which you
refer? Do RC airplanes have a lot more power to weight? Less?

I'm not aware of any full scale prop driven planes that can hang, or
hover, on their prop. Some of of the most powerful and capable stunt
planes flown by Patty Wagstaff, Matt Chapman, etc... can be flown level,
pulled to verticle with full power, and they will stop climbing after
some distance and go into the classic tail slide.

Well, that's a special capability for 3D aircraft - to which I've not yet evolved.
Maybe in another ten years.


RC planes *can* have a P/W ratio far higher than what is possible in
full scale. I'm sure you've seen some video or someone at your field
that can fly in "3D" mode. A properly equipped RC plane can hang
virtually motionless on its prop for some time, then accelerate straight up.

I think it's an interesting question for 'regular' RC airplanes.

Same for RC helicopters. They can do things that no full scale heli
could ever attempt. The laws of physics just can't be broken.

Oh, and I agree with you about how similar flying RC and full scale
really is. I've said it before, but with RC you lose the 1st person,
seat of the pants experience that full scale pilots have. But the
wings, rudder, elevator, ailerons, vertical and horizontal stabilizers
all do the same exact things on RC as they do with full scale aircraft.
The biggest difference is where the pilots are, in respect to their
planes, while manipulating the controls.

And, weather and turbulence can definitely play a part in RC flying!

Wow...glad I skipped the last 30 or so posts on toy planes. Y-a-w-n.
--
Sent from my iPhone 6+

On 2/17/2015 12:04 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 09:41:20 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/17/2015 7:24 AM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 9:07:56 PM UTC-5, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 2/16/15 8:19 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 6:57:42 PM UTC-5, Keyser Söze wrote:

Works with other toys, too, like model railroad layouts.

That's stupid. You don't have to steer a model railroad.


You've heard of switches, right?

Switches move the train from one track to another.

The track itself "steers" the train.



True but pilots don't "steer" a plane either. They fly them.

From Dictionary.com:

verb (used without object)
4.
to direct the course of a vessel, vehicle, airplane, or the like, by the use of a
rudder or other means.

One could say that a pilot does, in fact, steer his airplane. Trains are not
'steered'.


Go take a flying lesson. Tell the CFI you want to "steer" the plane.

On 2/17/2015 12:16 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 19:08:08 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/16/2015 6:31 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 12:25:26 PM UTC-5, John H. wrote:

The big difference between simulators/real airplanes and RC airplanes - in sims or
real planes, the nose of the plane is in front of you. With an RC plane, at least
part of the time, the nose is pointed at you. That means the left and right controls
are reversed. This, I believe, is what causes the most problems, at least for me.

Another related difference is that pilots in a real plane has a seat of the pants, first person view. Not so with RC.

Something that helps newbies to RC is that when the airplane is flying towards you and the controls are reversed, your can turn your body so the transmitter is faced the same way as the plane, but look back over your shoulder at the plane. That way the stick moves to the right, the plane moves to the right. It's a crutch, but with some more stick time it'll come naturally.



I don't think there's much at all in common comparing RC flying and
flying a real airplane. Speed scale is totally different. Turns
and maneuvers are not anything close to being realistic to flying an
airplane.

I see it as a fun hobby for many but to compare it to actually flying
an airplane it isn't even close.


Many of the airplanes flown at our field fly in excess of 100mph - and that's
measured by radar.

One of our guys has one of these:
http://www.modelairplanenews.com/blo...ini-radar-gun/

They measure real speed, not scale speed.

Since I've never flown a real airplane, I can't argue your 'turns and maneuvers'
statement. I know that if I bank my airplane using the ailerons and don't give it
some up elevator, it will head for the dirt. Perhaps you could tell us what the big
differences are.

I'm thinking the biggest difference is that my crash isn't going to kill anyone. Oh,
and my pre-flight checklist is shorter!


An introductory flight lesson is cheap. Used to be about $50 for a half
hour but maybe it's gone up now.

If the CFI is halfway comfortable with how you follow directions, he'll
let you taxi, take off and "fly the pattern". He'll land it although he
may let you think you did.

Do that and then come back and tell me how similar RC flying is to
actually flying a real aircraft. You may be surprised. Flying a
real airplane might be simpler.

On 2/17/2015 12:16 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 19:54:29 -0500, Keyser Söze wrote:

On 2/16/15 7:08 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/16/2015 6:31 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 12:25:26 PM UTC-5, John H. wrote:

The big difference between simulators/real airplanes and RC airplanes
- in sims or
real planes, the nose of the plane is in front of you. With an RC
plane, at least
part of the time, the nose is pointed at you. That means the left and
right controls
are reversed. This, I believe, is what causes the most problems, at
least for me.

Another related difference is that pilots in a real plane has a seat
of the pants, first person view. Not so with RC.

Something that helps newbies to RC is that when the airplane is flying
towards you and the controls are reversed, your can turn your body so
the transmitter is faced the same way as the plane, but look back over
your shoulder at the plane. That way the stick moves to the right,
the plane moves to the right. It's a crutch, but with some more stick
time it'll come naturally.



I don't think there's much at all in common comparing RC flying and
flying a real airplane. Speed scale is totally different. Turns
and maneuvers are not anything close to being realistic to flying an
airplane.

I see it as a fun hobby for many but to compare it to actually flying
an airplane it isn't even close.



What happens when your toy plane crashes? It breaks.
What happens when a real airplane crashes? Death and destruction.

And that, my friends, is the big difference!



The chances of you crashing a real airplane are pretty slim compared to
crashing a RC. First of all, while under instruction your CFI isn't
keen on crashing. By the time you are ready to solo you will be well
qualified in the eyes of your instructor.

When you consider the number of people taking flight lessons every day
across the country and the number of small aircraft pilots flying every
day, the safety record is pretty high and the number of crashes are low.

On 2/17/2015 12:25 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 20:18:55 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/16/2015 7:54 PM, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 2/16/15 7:08 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/16/2015 6:31 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 12:25:26 PM UTC-5, John H. wrote:

The big difference between simulators/real airplanes and RC airplanes
- in sims or
real planes, the nose of the plane is in front of you. With an RC
plane, at least
part of the time, the nose is pointed at you. That means the left and
right controls
are reversed. This, I believe, is what causes the most problems, at
least for me.

Another related difference is that pilots in a real plane has a seat
of the pants, first person view. Not so with RC.

Something that helps newbies to RC is that when the airplane is flying
towards you and the controls are reversed, your can turn your body so
the transmitter is faced the same way as the plane, but look back over
your shoulder at the plane. That way the stick moves to the right,
the plane moves to the right. It's a crutch, but with some more stick
time it'll come naturally.



I don't think there's much at all in common comparing RC flying and
flying a real airplane. Speed scale is totally different. Turns
and maneuvers are not anything close to being realistic to flying an
airplane.

I see it as a fun hobby for many but to compare it to actually flying
an airplane it isn't even close.



What happens when your toy plane crashes? It breaks.
What happens when a real airplane crashes? Death and destruction.





True.

I've seen some large RC planes that appear to be very realistic in
flight, maneuvers, take-offs and landings but the smaller ones I've
seen people flying are way out of scale to anything real. They can
do turns, climbs, etc. that would cause a human pilot to pass out
or worse.

The bigger ones fly slower, maneuver more slowly and look much more
realistic.

The smaller ones, depending on the configuration, can fly slower, maneuver more
slowly and also look very realistic. My Apprentice, with its tremendous wing area,
can stay aloft at little more than a walking speed.

Something like this, on the other hand, requires some speed just to stay aloft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=uN5BD4e55hE

I am not knocking those who enjoy the RC hobby thing. I just don't
think you can come close to comparing it to actual flying.



Why not? Granted, you're not in the airplane, but other than that what's the big
difference?

Well, I've done both. Again I am not knocking your RC hobby but you
really cannot compare the two. Like I suggested in a different post,
go take an introductory flight lesson. Then you can compare for yourself.

On 2/17/2015 12:44 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 20:35:18 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/16/2015 8:18 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 7:08:10 PM UTC-5, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/16/2015 6:31 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 12:25:26 PM UTC-5, John H. wrote:

The big difference between simulators/real airplanes and RC airplanes - in sims or
real planes, the nose of the plane is in front of you. With an RC plane, at least
part of the time, the nose is pointed at you. That means the left and right controls
are reversed. This, I believe, is what causes the most problems, at least for me.

Another related difference is that pilots in a real plane has a seat of the pants, first person view. Not so with RC.

Something that helps newbies to RC is that when the airplane is flying towards you and the controls are reversed, your can turn your body so the transmitter is faced the same way as the plane, but look back over your shoulder at the plane. That way the stick moves to the right, the plane moves to the right. It's a crutch, but with some more stick time it'll come naturally.



I don't think there's much at all in common comparing RC flying and
flying a real airplane. Speed scale is totally different. Turns
and maneuvers are not anything close to being realistic to flying an
airplane.

I see it as a fun hobby for many but to compare it to actually flying
an airplane it isn't even close.

If you think about it, it's very similar. The same rules apply, the aircraft reacts the same way. RC planes can do things that real planes can't, but they also suffer from the fact that they don't fly quite the same way. Said another way, the air molecules are still the same size, while the wings and control surfaces of RC planes are far smaller. That's why truly scale RC planes don't tend to fly very well.

Good RC pilots can fly very realistically. I saw a jet done up in Fed-Ex colors being flown slowly and with coordinated turns. It looked very real, except for the size, although it was still large with about a 10 foot wingspan.

But while you may have not meant it, your attitude is common with "real" pilots. They think of RC planes as toys. And they crash them when they first try to fly them, thinking that if they can fly the real thing, they can fly the toy. They cannot.

Real pilots hope to walk away from a crash. RC pilots walk towards it!



I wasn't knocking RC flying. I know a lot of people enjoy it. I also
know a lot of people who think it's similar to actual flying (which it
isn't). As you point out the scale is totally different, the power to
weight ratio is different and the control surfaces behave differently.
I've tried a couple once in flight. You're right. I can land an
airplane but I'd crash an RC if I tried applying my flying instincts and
control.

Back when I was flying I used to play with whatever the current version
of Microsoft Flight Simulator was at the time. I had the yoke and pedal
controller set up. It was not exactly like flying but was pretty close
in many ways, especially how the wing surfaces reacted in the simulator.
Even more realistic when you added in a little "weather" and turbulence.
I think that was much closer to the "feel" of actually flying than a RC
plane can ever be.


Flight simulators such as Microsoft's have very, very little resemblance to RC
flying.

You keep saying its not similar to actual flying. How do the control surfaces behave
differently? What is the power to weight ration of the 'real' airplanes to which you
refer? Do RC airplanes have a lot more power to weight? Less?

Here are the motor specs for my motor:

Power 15 Brushless Outrunner Motor, 950Kv
Key Features

Equivalent to a 15-size glow engine for sport and scale airplanes weighing 36–56
oz (1020–1590 g)
Ideal for 3D airplanes weighing 32–40 oz (910–1135 g)
Ideal for models requiring up to 575 watts of power
High-torque, direct-drive alternative to inrunner brushless motors
Includes mount, prop adapters and mounting hardware
External rotor design—5mm shaft can easily be reversed for alternative motor
installations
Slotted 14-pole outrunner design
High-quality construction with ball bearings and hardened steel shaft

Here are my airplane specs:

Apprentice S 15e RTF with SAFE
Product Specifications
Wingspan: 59.0 in (1500mm)
Overall Length: 42.5 in (1080mm)
Wing Area: 515 sq. in. (33.2 sq. dm.)
Flying Weight: 49.0 oz (1390 g)
Motor Size: 15-size brushless outrunner
Radio: Spektrum DX5e transmitter (included)
CG (center of gravity): 3-1/8 in (79.0mm) back from the leading edge of wing
Prop Size: 11 x 8
Speed Control : 30-amp brushless (installed)
Recommended Battery: 11.1V 3S 3200mAh LiPo (included)
Flaps: No
Retracts: No
Control Throw (Ailerons): Low: 0.71 in (18mm); High: 0.91 in (23mm)
Control Throw (Elevator): Low: 0.71 in (18mm); High: 0.91 in (23mm)
Control Throw (Rudder): Low: 1.10 in (28mm); High: 1.35 in (35mm)

How does one compare the 'power to weight' ratio?

RC planes can climb faster than any comparable
"real" airplane. How fast can you climb? Pretty much like a rocket.
A real airplane doesn't climb like that and to try it would result in
a stall very quickly. A real airplane requires taking weight,
temperature, altitude and air density as factors. With RC flying, none
of those issues matter much.

Try flying a real airplane. Then you are qualified to judge and compare.

On 2/17/2015 12:59 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 12:44:43 -0500, Abit Loco
wrote:

You keep saying its not similar to actual flying. How do the control surfaces behave
differently? What is the power to weight ration of the 'real' airplanes to which you
refer? Do RC airplanes have a lot more power to weight? Less?

When you are flying a real plane, you feel the surfaces reacting in
the seat of your pants


Heh. You feel a hell of a lot more than that. Take off on a windy day
with a lot of turbulence. Better yet, try landing under the same
conditions with a stiff crosswind.

On 2/17/2015 12:44 PM, Abit Loco wrote:

On 2/16/2015 8:18 PM, wrote:

Not sure which of you two said this ....


Flight simulators such as Microsoft's have very, very little
resemblance to RC
flying.


..... however it supports what I've been saying.

Microsoft's Flight Simulator is not perfect but it can be close to the
simulation of flying a "real" airplane, especially when set up for
realistic conditions such as weather, winds, etc.

If it has "very, very little resemblance to RC flying" then I rest my case.