On 2/17/2015 6:29 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 17, 2015 at 4:37:37 PM UTC-5, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/17/2015 12:25 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 20:18:55 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/16/2015 7:54 PM, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 2/16/15 7:08 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/16/2015 6:31 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 12:25:26 PM UTC-5, John H. wrote:

The big difference between simulators/real airplanes and RC airplanes
- in sims or
real planes, the nose of the plane is in front of you. With an RC
plane, at least
part of the time, the nose is pointed at you. That means the left and
right controls
are reversed. This, I believe, is what causes the most problems, at
least for me.

Another related difference is that pilots in a real plane has a seat
of the pants, first person view. Not so with RC.

Something that helps newbies to RC is that when the airplane is flying
towards you and the controls are reversed, your can turn your body so
the transmitter is faced the same way as the plane, but look back over
your shoulder at the plane. That way the stick moves to the right,
the plane moves to the right. It's a crutch, but with some more stick
time it'll come naturally.



I don't think there's much at all in common comparing RC flying and
flying a real airplane. Speed scale is totally different. Turns
and maneuvers are not anything close to being realistic to flying an
airplane.

I see it as a fun hobby for many but to compare it to actually flying
an airplane it isn't even close.



What happens when your toy plane crashes? It breaks.
What happens when a real airplane crashes? Death and destruction.





True.

I've seen some large RC planes that appear to be very realistic in
flight, maneuvers, take-offs and landings but the smaller ones I've
seen people flying are way out of scale to anything real. They can
do turns, climbs, etc. that would cause a human pilot to pass out
or worse.

The bigger ones fly slower, maneuver more slowly and look much more
realistic.

The smaller ones, depending on the configuration, can fly slower, maneuver more
slowly and also look very realistic. My Apprentice, with its tremendous wing area,
can stay aloft at little more than a walking speed.

Something like this, on the other hand, requires some speed just to stay aloft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=uN5BD4e55hE

I am not knocking those who enjoy the RC hobby thing. I just don't
think you can come close to comparing it to actual flying.



Why not? Granted, you're not in the airplane, but other than that what's the big
difference?

Well, I've done both. Again I am not knocking your RC hobby but you
really cannot compare the two. Like I suggested in a different post,
go take an introductory flight lesson. Then you can compare for yourself.

So have I. Haven't landed a full scale, but have flown a 150, and been up in a 182, Beechcraft Bonanza (regular and V tail) and Baron, and a Zlin for some aerobatics. A little stick time in most. Funny, the plane reacted pretty much the same to control inputs as any other plane, RC or full scale.

But you were correct in your other post. Full scale is easier to *fly*. All of the procedural stuff and instruments are much more involved, but the mechanics of flight are the *same*. Except RC lacks the seat of the pants and FPV input that full scale pilots enjoy.

You're projecting the arrogance that typical full scale pilots exhibit. The jokes about that are endless! I've also spent lots of time in airport ramp towers, pilots lounges, and major airline OCCs (operational control centers). I know a good bit about that.



I am not trying to project anything. I really don't give a ****. All I
was conveying is some experience with flying versus flying RC model
airplanes. Both you and John have some experience flying an airplane
after takeoff and before landing and think that because the controls
do the same to the full scale as they do on a RC, then RC flying is like
real flying. That's where I lose both of you. Flying an airplane
straight and level and maybe making some turns isn't the full scope of
"flying".

Question for you. I ask because I had a hard time with this at first.

When flying an airplane, what controls altitude? What controls speed?

"Mr. Luddite" wrote:
On 2/17/2015 6:05 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 16:28:55 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/17/2015 12:16 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 19:08:08 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/16/2015 6:31 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 12:25:26 PM UTC-5, John H. wrote:

The big difference between simulators/real airplanes and RC airplanes - in sims or
real planes, the nose of the plane is in front of you. With an RC plane, at least
part of the time, the nose is pointed at you. That means the left and right controls
are reversed. This, I believe, is what causes the most problems, at least for me.

Another related difference is that pilots in a real plane has a seat
of the pants, first person view. Not so with RC.

Something that helps newbies to RC is that when the airplane is
flying towards you and the controls are reversed, your can turn your
body so the transmitter is faced the same way as the plane, but look
back over your shoulder at the plane. That way the stick moves to
the right, the plane moves to the right. It's a crutch, but with
some more stick time it'll come naturally.



I don't think there's much at all in common comparing RC flying and
flying a real airplane. Speed scale is totally different. Turns
and maneuvers are not anything close to being realistic to flying an
airplane.

I see it as a fun hobby for many but to compare it to actually flying
an airplane it isn't even close.


Many of the airplanes flown at our field fly in excess of 100mph - and that's
measured by radar.

One of our guys has one of these:
http://www.modelairplanenews.com/blo...ini-radar-gun/

They measure real speed, not scale speed.

Since I've never flown a real airplane, I can't argue your 'turns and maneuvers'
statement. I know that if I bank my airplane using the ailerons and don't give it
some up elevator, it will head for the dirt. Perhaps you could tell us what the big
differences are.

I'm thinking the biggest difference is that my crash isn't going to kill anyone. Oh,
and my pre-flight checklist is shorter!


An introductory flight lesson is cheap. Used to be about $50 for a half
hour but maybe it's gone up now.

If the CFI is halfway comfortable with how you follow directions, he'll
let you taxi, take off and "fly the pattern". He'll land it although he
may let you think you did.

Do that and then come back and tell me how similar RC flying is to
actually flying a real aircraft. You may be surprised. Flying a
real airplane might be simpler.


Geezie Pete - this is getting you wrapped around an axle, isn't it.

While in Vietnam I was lucky enough to go up in an OV-10 for a three hour flight. The
pilot was nice enough to let me fly the plane for about a half hour after flying our
missions.

There are a lot of similarities, especially in the controls. Pulling the stick back
on the OV-10 does the same thing as pulling the stick back on the RC xmtr. And, not
giving the plane some throttle when doing so could cause a stall - as the OV-10 pilot
told me. Only his words were, "Do you want to crash?" Me, "No". Him, "Well you'd
better give it some throttle."

There were a tremendous number of similarities.

Was it the same as flying an RC aircraft? Hell no. But, it was a tad more difficult
than steering a train.



Not me getting wrapped around an axle. You are the one who thinks flying
RC airplanes is like flying a real one.

So you took the controls of an airplane after it took off and was flying
straight and level. I did that when I was 10 years old with a pilot friend of my father.

Try "the hood". The hood is a device that you wear that limits your
field of view to the inside of the airplane only. All you can see is the
instruments. Your instructor will take control of the airplane and
put it in an unusual attitude meaning it may be banked over and
descending or in a banked climb nearing stall. He'll then say, "Your
plane" and you learn to recover using instruments only with no ground
reference. When you are in a banked turn, you can't tell by the seat
of your pants. The airplane could be standing on one wing tip and you
wouldn't know other than by instruments.

Very correct. My wife gave me an hour in a T6. I got to fly loops and
rolls. Was interesting that you pretty much were close to 1G in most of
the maneuvers. No snap rolls.

Keyser Söze wrote:
On 2/17/15 5:22 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/17/2015 5:10 PM, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 2/17/15 4:37 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/17/2015 12:25 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 20:18:55 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/16/2015 7:54 PM, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 2/16/15 7:08 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/16/2015 6:31 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 12:25:26 PM UTC-5, John H. wrote:

The big difference between simulators/real airplanes and RC
airplanes
- in sims or
real planes, the nose of the plane is in front of you. With an RC
plane, at least
part of the time, the nose is pointed at you. That means the left
and
right controls
are reversed. This, I believe, is what causes the most
problems, at
least for me.

Another related difference is that pilots in a real plane has a
seat
of the pants, first person view. Not so with RC.

Something that helps newbies to RC is that when the airplane is
flying
towards you and the controls are reversed, your can turn your
body so
the transmitter is faced the same way as the plane, but look back
over
your shoulder at the plane. That way the stick moves to the right,
the plane moves to the right. It's a crutch, but with some more
stick
time it'll come naturally.



I don't think there's much at all in common comparing RC flying and
flying a real airplane. Speed scale is totally different. Turns
and maneuvers are not anything close to being realistic to flying an
airplane.

I see it as a fun hobby for many but to compare it to actually
flying
an airplane it isn't even close.



What happens when your toy plane crashes? It breaks.
What happens when a real airplane crashes? Death and destruction.





True.

I've seen some large RC planes that appear to be very realistic in
flight, maneuvers, take-offs and landings but the smaller ones I've
seen people flying are way out of scale to anything real. They can
do turns, climbs, etc. that would cause a human pilot to pass out
or worse.

The bigger ones fly slower, maneuver more slowly and look much more
realistic.

The smaller ones, depending on the configuration, can fly slower,
maneuver more
slowly and also look very realistic. My Apprentice, with its
tremendous wing area,
can stay aloft at little more than a walking speed.

Something like this, on the other hand, requires some speed just to
stay aloft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=uN5BD4e55hE

I am not knocking those who enjoy the RC hobby thing. I just don't
think you can come close to comparing it to actual flying.



Why not? Granted, you're not in the airplane, but other than that
what's the big
difference?

Well, I've done both. Again I am not knocking your RC hobby but you
really cannot compare the two. Like I suggested in a different post,
go take an introductory flight lesson. Then you can compare for
yourself.





This is really funny stuff...thanks, Luddite. And remember, driving
that RC boat in a swimming pool is just like driving a real boat through
a ferocious inlet. I mean, what's the difference?



This is a common debate between RC pilots and those who hold a pilot's
license. Like I said before I don't knock those to enjoy the RC thing.
It's fun for many but it's a totally different experience.
Sure, there are similarities in the respect that both have wings
and go up in the air. But that's about it.

I did all of my flight instruction in a Cessna 152. After I soloed I
flew the 152 and a 150 quite a bit. I did the cross country phase and
final check flight for my ticket in a Cessna 172. All the Cessna's were
high winged aircraft.

After a while I wanted to try something different, so I arranged for a
checkout flight in a Piper Warrior which is more powerful and low
winged. Felt like I was flying a Boeing 747 by comparison.

That all said, I am glad I did it but I also realized I am not a
"natural" pilot who enjoys the stresses of flying. I like boating much
more.



When I worked for the teachers union, I got to fly around a bit in one of
its regional airplanes, a King Air. I remember once the pilot let me sit
in the second chair while he was landing at LaGuardia. If I had any
thought of taking flying lessons, that experience changed my mind. Too
much going on with the plane, the radio, other traffic, et cetera. I'm
sure flying a model plane is "just as difficult."



My late fishing partner was a radioman on an Orion and P2V's in the navy.
He said he watch the landing on the carrier one time. Looked like a
postage stamp in the middle of the ocean. After that he turned his chair
around and did not watch on carrier landings.

On 2/17/2015 6:30 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 16:46:45 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/17/2015 12:44 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 20:35:18 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/16/2015 8:18 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 7:08:10 PM UTC-5, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/16/2015 6:31 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 12:25:26 PM UTC-5, John H. wrote:

The big difference between simulators/real airplanes and RC airplanes - in sims or
real planes, the nose of the plane is in front of you. With an RC plane, at least
part of the time, the nose is pointed at you. That means the left and right controls
are reversed. This, I believe, is what causes the most problems, at least for me.

Another related difference is that pilots in a real plane has a seat of the pants, first person view. Not so with RC.

Something that helps newbies to RC is that when the airplane is flying towards you and the controls are reversed, your can turn your body so the transmitter is faced the same way as the plane, but look back over your shoulder at the plane. That way the stick moves to the right, the plane moves to the right. It's a crutch, but with some more stick time it'll come naturally.



I don't think there's much at all in common comparing RC flying and
flying a real airplane. Speed scale is totally different. Turns
and maneuvers are not anything close to being realistic to flying an
airplane.

I see it as a fun hobby for many but to compare it to actually flying
an airplane it isn't even close.

If you think about it, it's very similar. The same rules apply, the aircraft reacts the same way. RC planes can do things that real planes can't, but they also suffer from the fact that they don't fly quite the same way. Said another way, the air molecules are still the same size, while the wings and control surfaces of RC planes are far smaller. That's why truly scale RC planes don't tend to fly very well.

Good RC pilots can fly very realistically. I saw a jet done up in Fed-Ex colors being flown slowly and with coordinated turns. It looked very real, except for the size, although it was still large with about a 10 foot wingspan.

But while you may have not meant it, your attitude is common with "real" pilots. They think of RC planes as toys. And they crash them when they first try to fly them, thinking that if they can fly the real thing, they can fly the toy. They cannot.

Real pilots hope to walk away from a crash. RC pilots walk towards it!



I wasn't knocking RC flying. I know a lot of people enjoy it. I also
know a lot of people who think it's similar to actual flying (which it
isn't). As you point out the scale is totally different, the power to
weight ratio is different and the control surfaces behave differently.
I've tried a couple once in flight. You're right. I can land an
airplane but I'd crash an RC if I tried applying my flying instincts and
control.

Back when I was flying I used to play with whatever the current version
of Microsoft Flight Simulator was at the time. I had the yoke and pedal
controller set up. It was not exactly like flying but was pretty close
in many ways, especially how the wing surfaces reacted in the simulator.
Even more realistic when you added in a little "weather" and turbulence.
I think that was much closer to the "feel" of actually flying than a RC
plane can ever be.


Flight simulators such as Microsoft's have very, very little resemblance to RC
flying.

You keep saying its not similar to actual flying. How do the control surfaces behave
differently? What is the power to weight ration of the 'real' airplanes to which you
refer? Do RC airplanes have a lot more power to weight? Less?

Here are the motor specs for my motor:

Power 15 Brushless Outrunner Motor, 950Kv
Key Features

Equivalent to a 15-size glow engine for sport and scale airplanes weighing 36–56
oz (1020–1590 g)
Ideal for 3D airplanes weighing 32–40 oz (910–1135 g)
Ideal for models requiring up to 575 watts of power
High-torque, direct-drive alternative to inrunner brushless motors
Includes mount, prop adapters and mounting hardware
External rotor design—5mm shaft can easily be reversed for alternative motor
installations
Slotted 14-pole outrunner design
High-quality construction with ball bearings and hardened steel shaft

Here are my airplane specs:

Apprentice S 15e RTF with SAFE
Product Specifications
Wingspan: 59.0 in (1500mm)
Overall Length: 42.5 in (1080mm)
Wing Area: 515 sq. in. (33.2 sq. dm.)
Flying Weight: 49.0 oz (1390 g)
Motor Size: 15-size brushless outrunner
Radio: Spektrum DX5e transmitter (included)
CG (center of gravity): 3-1/8 in (79.0mm) back from the leading edge of wing
Prop Size: 11 x 8
Speed Control : 30-amp brushless (installed)
Recommended Battery: 11.1V 3S 3200mAh LiPo (included)
Flaps: No
Retracts: No
Control Throw (Ailerons): Low: 0.71 in (18mm); High: 0.91 in (23mm)
Control Throw (Elevator): Low: 0.71 in (18mm); High: 0.91 in (23mm)
Control Throw (Rudder): Low: 1.10 in (28mm); High: 1.35 in (35mm)

How does one compare the 'power to weight' ratio?

RC planes can climb faster than any comparable
"real" airplane. How fast can you climb? Pretty much like a rocket.
A real airplane doesn't climb like that and to try it would result in
a stall very quickly. A real airplane requires taking weight,
temperature, altitude and air density as factors. With RC flying, none
of those issues matter much.

Try flying a real airplane. Then you are qualified to judge and compare.

If I tried to climb vertically with the Apprentice, I'd be in a stall very quickly.
if the power is up it will do a loop, but not climb like the 3D planes discussed
earlier.

It's absolutely true that I don't worry much about temperature and air density as
factors. Weight and its distribution are important, as is altitude. Too high and I've
violated FCC regs and/or lost sight of the aircraft.

A real F/A-18 will probably climb faster than any of the scale RC aircraft and is
probably much faster. I've never seen any RC aircraft that could climb at 50,000
feet/min or fly 1000 mph, and that would include a scale RC F/A-18. But, maybe you
have.


I wasn't referring to high your fly your plane when I mentioned "altitude".

On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 19:00:07 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/17/2015 6:05 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 16:28:55 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/17/2015 12:16 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 19:08:08 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/16/2015 6:31 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 12:25:26 PM UTC-5, John H. wrote:

The big difference between simulators/real airplanes and RC airplanes - in sims or
real planes, the nose of the plane is in front of you. With an RC plane, at least
part of the time, the nose is pointed at you. That means the left and right controls
are reversed. This, I believe, is what causes the most problems, at least for me.

Another related difference is that pilots in a real plane has a seat of the pants, first person view. Not so with RC.

Something that helps newbies to RC is that when the airplane is flying towards you and the controls are reversed, your can turn your body so the transmitter is faced the same way as the plane, but look back over your shoulder at the plane. That way the stick moves to the right, the plane moves to the right. It's a crutch, but with some more stick time it'll come naturally.



I don't think there's much at all in common comparing RC flying and
flying a real airplane. Speed scale is totally different. Turns
and maneuvers are not anything close to being realistic to flying an
airplane.

I see it as a fun hobby for many but to compare it to actually flying
an airplane it isn't even close.


Many of the airplanes flown at our field fly in excess of 100mph - and that's
measured by radar.

One of our guys has one of these:
http://www.modelairplanenews.com/blo...ini-radar-gun/

They measure real speed, not scale speed.

Since I've never flown a real airplane, I can't argue your 'turns and maneuvers'
statement. I know that if I bank my airplane using the ailerons and don't give it
some up elevator, it will head for the dirt. Perhaps you could tell us what the big
differences are.

I'm thinking the biggest difference is that my crash isn't going to kill anyone. Oh,
and my pre-flight checklist is shorter!


An introductory flight lesson is cheap. Used to be about $50 for a half
hour but maybe it's gone up now.

If the CFI is halfway comfortable with how you follow directions, he'll
let you taxi, take off and "fly the pattern". He'll land it although he
may let you think you did.

Do that and then come back and tell me how similar RC flying is to
actually flying a real aircraft. You may be surprised. Flying a
real airplane might be simpler.


Geezie Pete - this is getting you wrapped around an axle, isn't it.

While in Vietnam I was lucky enough to go up in an OV-10 for a three hour flight. The
pilot was nice enough to let me fly the plane for about a half hour after flying our
missions.

There are a lot of similarities, especially in the controls. Pulling the stick back
on the OV-10 does the same thing as pulling the stick back on the RC xmtr. And, not
giving the plane some throttle when doing so could cause a stall - as the OV-10 pilot
told me. Only his words were, "Do you want to crash?" Me, "No". Him, "Well you'd
better give it some throttle."

There were a tremendous number of similarities.

Was it the same as flying an RC aircraft? Hell no. But, it was a tad more difficult
than steering a train.



Not me getting wrapped around an axle. You are the one who thinks
flying RC airplanes is like flying a real one.

Putting words in my mouth, are you? Shame on you.

So you took the controls of an airplane after it took off and was flying
straight and level. I did that when I was 10 years old with a pilot
friend of my father.

I've never proclaimed myself to be the pilot you are.

Try "the hood". The hood is a device that you wear that limits your
field of view to the inside of the airplane only. All you can see is
the instruments. Your instructor will take control of the airplane and
put it in an unusual attitude meaning it may be banked over and
descending or in a banked climb nearing stall. He'll then say, "Your
plane" and you learn to recover using instruments only with no ground
reference. When you are in a banked turn, you can't tell by the seat
of your pants. The airplane could be standing on one wing tip and you
wouldn't know other than by instruments.


Don't need to. Not interested in getting a 'real' pilot's license. I have a hard
enough time with RC planes - as do a lot of 'real' pilots, and I'm not talking piper
cub guys.
--

Guns don't cause problems. The behavior
of certain gun owners causes problems.

On 2/17/15 7:27 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 19:00:07 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/17/2015 6:05 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 16:28:55 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/17/2015 12:16 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 19:08:08 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/16/2015 6:31 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 12:25:26 PM UTC-5, John H. wrote:

The big difference between simulators/real airplanes and RC airplanes - in sims or
real planes, the nose of the plane is in front of you. With an RC plane, at least
part of the time, the nose is pointed at you. That means the left and right controls
are reversed. This, I believe, is what causes the most problems, at least for me.

Another related difference is that pilots in a real plane has a seat of the pants, first person view. Not so with RC.

Something that helps newbies to RC is that when the airplane is flying towards you and the controls are reversed, your can turn your body so the transmitter is faced the same way as the plane, but look back over your shoulder at the plane. That way the stick moves to the right, the plane moves to the right. It's a crutch, but with some more stick time it'll come naturally.



I don't think there's much at all in common comparing RC flying and
flying a real airplane. Speed scale is totally different. Turns
and maneuvers are not anything close to being realistic to flying an
airplane.

I see it as a fun hobby for many but to compare it to actually flying
an airplane it isn't even close.


Many of the airplanes flown at our field fly in excess of 100mph - and that's
measured by radar.

One of our guys has one of these:
http://www.modelairplanenews.com/blo...ini-radar-gun/

They measure real speed, not scale speed.

Since I've never flown a real airplane, I can't argue your 'turns and maneuvers'
statement. I know that if I bank my airplane using the ailerons and don't give it
some up elevator, it will head for the dirt. Perhaps you could tell us what the big
differences are.

I'm thinking the biggest difference is that my crash isn't going to kill anyone. Oh,
and my pre-flight checklist is shorter!


An introductory flight lesson is cheap. Used to be about $50 for a half
hour but maybe it's gone up now.

If the CFI is halfway comfortable with how you follow directions, he'll
let you taxi, take off and "fly the pattern". He'll land it although he
may let you think you did.

Do that and then come back and tell me how similar RC flying is to
actually flying a real aircraft. You may be surprised. Flying a
real airplane might be simpler.


Geezie Pete - this is getting you wrapped around an axle, isn't it.

While in Vietnam I was lucky enough to go up in an OV-10 for a three hour flight. The
pilot was nice enough to let me fly the plane for about a half hour after flying our
missions.

There are a lot of similarities, especially in the controls. Pulling the stick back
on the OV-10 does the same thing as pulling the stick back on the RC xmtr. And, not
giving the plane some throttle when doing so could cause a stall - as the OV-10 pilot
told me. Only his words were, "Do you want to crash?" Me, "No". Him, "Well you'd
better give it some throttle."

There were a tremendous number of similarities.

Was it the same as flying an RC aircraft? Hell no. But, it was a tad more difficult
than steering a train.



Not me getting wrapped around an axle. You are the one who thinks
flying RC airplanes is like flying a real one.

Putting words in my mouth, are you? Shame on you.

So you took the controls of an airplane after it took off and was flying
straight and level. I did that when I was 10 years old with a pilot
friend of my father.

I've never proclaimed myself to be the pilot you are.

Try "the hood". The hood is a device that you wear that limits your
field of view to the inside of the airplane only. All you can see is
the instruments. Your instructor will take control of the airplane and
put it in an unusual attitude meaning it may be banked over and
descending or in a banked climb nearing stall. He'll then say, "Your
plane" and you learn to recover using instruments only with no ground
reference. When you are in a banked turn, you can't tell by the seat
of your pants. The airplane could be standing on one wing tip and you
wouldn't know other than by instruments.


Don't need to. Not interested in getting a 'real' pilot's license. I have a hard
enough time with RC planes - as do a lot of 'real' pilots, and I'm not talking piper
cub guys.



This just gets funnier and funnier.

--
Proud to be a Liberal.

On 2/17/2015 6:39 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 18:17:23 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/17/2015 5:58 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 16:34:20 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/17/2015 12:16 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 19:54:29 -0500, Keyser Söze wrote:

On 2/16/15 7:08 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/16/2015 6:31 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 12:25:26 PM UTC-5, John H. wrote:

The big difference between simulators/real airplanes and RC airplanes
- in sims or
real planes, the nose of the plane is in front of you. With an RC
plane, at least
part of the time, the nose is pointed at you. That means the left and
right controls
are reversed. This, I believe, is what causes the most problems, at
least for me.

Another related difference is that pilots in a real plane has a seat
of the pants, first person view. Not so with RC.

Something that helps newbies to RC is that when the airplane is flying
towards you and the controls are reversed, your can turn your body so
the transmitter is faced the same way as the plane, but look back over
your shoulder at the plane. That way the stick moves to the right,
the plane moves to the right. It's a crutch, but with some more stick
time it'll come naturally.



I don't think there's much at all in common comparing RC flying and
flying a real airplane. Speed scale is totally different. Turns
and maneuvers are not anything close to being realistic to flying an
airplane.

I see it as a fun hobby for many but to compare it to actually flying
an airplane it isn't even close.



What happens when your toy plane crashes? It breaks.
What happens when a real airplane crashes? Death and destruction.

And that, my friends, is the big difference!



The chances of you crashing a real airplane are pretty slim compared to
crashing a RC. First of all, while under instruction your CFI isn't
keen on crashing. By the time you are ready to solo you will be well
qualified in the eyes of your instructor.

When you consider the number of people taking flight lessons every day
across the country and the number of small aircraft pilots flying every
day, the safety record is pretty high and the number of crashes are low.


Have you ever 'buddy-boxed' with an RC instructor pilot? While under instruction, the
instructor isn't keen on you ruining your airplane. He has a switch which immediately
gives him control of the aircraft if he thinks trouble is approaching.



When I was actively flying the thought of ruining the airplane never
crossed my mind.

John, if you want to believe that flying a $200 airplane by remote
control emulates flying a real airplane, more power to you.
I see them as two completely different experiences that require totally
different skill sets. Any licensed pilot can remember every single
detail of their first solo flight when the CFI was no longer sitting
beside you and once you went up ... getting down alive was entirely
dependent on you. Second is the cross country phase where navigation
becomes key. With RC flying you don't lose where you are. I remember
some of the early flight lessons when the instructor would tell me
to head back to the airport ... and I just stared at the ground
wondering where the hell I was. These have nothing to do with
controlling or flying the airplane but are part of "real" flying.

If you think there are *no* similarities between flying an RC aircraft (of any cost)
and flying the real airplane, then more power to you.

Now you're comparing flying an RC airplane to getting a pilot's license for a real
airplane. Why not compare it to flying and landing an F/A-18 on a carrier. I'll bet
that's much different from landing an RC airplane in the grass.

True, when flying an RC airplane, the pilot never loses where *he* is. But, they
often lose where the airplane is. Happened to me a couple weeks ago. I flew the
airplane beyond my ability to see it. The clouds were much the same color as the
airplane. Had to yell for help. Young guy came and got it back for me.

Just calm down a bit. No one is trying to denigrate your experience in getting your
pilot's license. And, when you pushed that stick left or right, you were steering the
airplane, whether you like it or not!



Whatever you say Captain Herring. I admit that I have many more hours
logged flying for real than I have flying a RC airplane, standing on the
ground and controlling it with basically a game controller.
Maybe if I did it more often I'd learn how similar it is to the real thing.

Then again, probably not. No interest.


with a

On 2/17/2015 6:30 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 16:46:45 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/17/2015 12:44 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 20:35:18 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/16/2015 8:18 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 7:08:10 PM UTC-5, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/16/2015 6:31 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 12:25:26 PM UTC-5, John H. wrote:

The big difference between simulators/real airplanes and RC airplanes - in sims or
real planes, the nose of the plane is in front of you. With an RC plane, at least
part of the time, the nose is pointed at you. That means the left and right controls
are reversed. This, I believe, is what causes the most problems, at least for me.

Another related difference is that pilots in a real plane has a seat of the pants, first person view. Not so with RC.

Something that helps newbies to RC is that when the airplane is flying towards you and the controls are reversed, your can turn your body so the transmitter is faced the same way as the plane, but look back over your shoulder at the plane. That way the stick moves to the right, the plane moves to the right. It's a crutch, but with some more stick time it'll come naturally.



I don't think there's much at all in common comparing RC flying and
flying a real airplane. Speed scale is totally different. Turns
and maneuvers are not anything close to being realistic to flying an
airplane.

I see it as a fun hobby for many but to compare it to actually flying
an airplane it isn't even close.

If you think about it, it's very similar. The same rules apply, the aircraft reacts the same way. RC planes can do things that real planes can't, but they also suffer from the fact that they don't fly quite the same way. Said another way, the air molecules are still the same size, while the wings and control surfaces of RC planes are far smaller. That's why truly scale RC planes don't tend to fly very well.

Good RC pilots can fly very realistically. I saw a jet done up in Fed-Ex colors being flown slowly and with coordinated turns. It looked very real, except for the size, although it was still large with about a 10 foot wingspan.

But while you may have not meant it, your attitude is common with "real" pilots. They think of RC planes as toys. And they crash them when they first try to fly them, thinking that if they can fly the real thing, they can fly the toy. They cannot.

Real pilots hope to walk away from a crash. RC pilots walk towards it!



I wasn't knocking RC flying. I know a lot of people enjoy it. I also
know a lot of people who think it's similar to actual flying (which it
isn't). As you point out the scale is totally different, the power to
weight ratio is different and the control surfaces behave differently.
I've tried a couple once in flight. You're right. I can land an
airplane but I'd crash an RC if I tried applying my flying instincts and
control.

Back when I was flying I used to play with whatever the current version
of Microsoft Flight Simulator was at the time. I had the yoke and pedal
controller set up. It was not exactly like flying but was pretty close
in many ways, especially how the wing surfaces reacted in the simulator.
Even more realistic when you added in a little "weather" and turbulence.
I think that was much closer to the "feel" of actually flying than a RC
plane can ever be.


Flight simulators such as Microsoft's have very, very little resemblance to RC
flying.

You keep saying its not similar to actual flying. How do the control surfaces behave
differently? What is the power to weight ration of the 'real' airplanes to which you
refer? Do RC airplanes have a lot more power to weight? Less?

Here are the motor specs for my motor:

Power 15 Brushless Outrunner Motor, 950Kv
Key Features

Equivalent to a 15-size glow engine for sport and scale airplanes weighing 36–56
oz (1020–1590 g)
Ideal for 3D airplanes weighing 32–40 oz (910–1135 g)
Ideal for models requiring up to 575 watts of power
High-torque, direct-drive alternative to inrunner brushless motors
Includes mount, prop adapters and mounting hardware
External rotor design—5mm shaft can easily be reversed for alternative motor
installations
Slotted 14-pole outrunner design
High-quality construction with ball bearings and hardened steel shaft

Here are my airplane specs:

Apprentice S 15e RTF with SAFE
Product Specifications
Wingspan: 59.0 in (1500mm)
Overall Length: 42.5 in (1080mm)
Wing Area: 515 sq. in. (33.2 sq. dm.)
Flying Weight: 49.0 oz (1390 g)
Motor Size: 15-size brushless outrunner
Radio: Spektrum DX5e transmitter (included)
CG (center of gravity): 3-1/8 in (79.0mm) back from the leading edge of wing
Prop Size: 11 x 8
Speed Control : 30-amp brushless (installed)
Recommended Battery: 11.1V 3S 3200mAh LiPo (included)
Flaps: No
Retracts: No
Control Throw (Ailerons): Low: 0.71 in (18mm); High: 0.91 in (23mm)
Control Throw (Elevator): Low: 0.71 in (18mm); High: 0.91 in (23mm)
Control Throw (Rudder): Low: 1.10 in (28mm); High: 1.35 in (35mm)

How does one compare the 'power to weight' ratio?

RC planes can climb faster than any comparable
"real" airplane. How fast can you climb? Pretty much like a rocket.
A real airplane doesn't climb like that and to try it would result in
a stall very quickly. A real airplane requires taking weight,
temperature, altitude and air density as factors. With RC flying, none
of those issues matter much.

Try flying a real airplane. Then you are qualified to judge and compare.

If I tried to climb vertically with the Apprentice, I'd be in a stall very quickly.
if the power is up it will do a loop, but not climb like the 3D planes discussed
earlier.

It's absolutely true that I don't worry much about temperature and air density as
factors. Weight and its distribution are important, as is altitude. Too high and I've
violated FCC regs and/or lost sight of the aircraft.

A real F/A-18 will probably climb faster than any of the scale RC aircraft and is
probably much faster. I've never seen any RC aircraft that could climb at 50,000
feet/min or fly 1000 mph, and that would include a scale RC F/A-18. But, maybe you
have.



A little sensitive about your newly found hobby, aren't you?

On 2/17/2015 6:45 PM, Califbill wrote:
wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 7:08:10 PM UTC-5, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/16/2015 6:31 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 12:25:26 PM UTC-5, John H. wrote:

The big difference between simulators/real airplanes and RC airplanes - in sims or
real planes, the nose of the plane is in front of you. With an RC plane, at least
part of the time, the nose is pointed at you. That means the left and right controls
are reversed. This, I believe, is what causes the most problems, at least for me.

Another related difference is that pilots in a real plane has a seat of
the pants, first person view. Not so with RC.

Something that helps newbies to RC is that when the airplane is flying
towards you and the controls are reversed, your can turn your body so
the transmitter is faced the same way as the plane, but look back over
your shoulder at the plane. That way the stick moves to the right, the
plane moves to the right. It's a crutch, but with some more stick time
it'll come naturally.



I don't think there's much at all in common comparing RC flying and
flying a real airplane. Speed scale is totally different. Turns
and maneuvers are not anything close to being realistic to flying an
airplane.

I see it as a fun hobby for many but to compare it to actually flying
an airplane it isn't even close.

If you think about it, it's very similar. The same rules apply, the
aircraft reacts the same way. RC planes can do things that real planes
can't, but they also suffer from the fact that they don't fly quite the
same way. Said another way, the air molecules are still the same size,
while the wings and control surfaces of RC planes are far smaller.
That's why truly scale RC planes don't tend to fly very well.

Good RC pilots can fly very realistically. I saw a jet done up in Fed-Ex
colors being flown slowly and with coordinated turns. It looked very
real, except for the size, although it was still large with about a 10 foot wingspan.

But while you may have not meant it, your attitude is common with "real"
pilots. They think of RC planes as toys. And they crash them when they
first try to fly them, thinking that if they can fly the real thing, they
can fly the toy. They cannot.

Real pilots hope to walk away from a crash. RC pilots walk towards it!

The airplanes do not react the same way. Lots more mass and leverage
differences in a real airplane.



The more I think about it the more the differences become obvious.

When starting your take off roll, how do you "steer" the RC? Or do you?
When landing, how do you correct for crosswinds? Dipped wing or slip?
What's your pre-flight like. What's a "run up". Magneto check limits?
What's your landing pattern procedures?
How do you stop the plane when you land?
How do you control direction of the plane when taxiing?

Those are but a few very basic issues of "real" flying that I don't
think the average RC pilot deals with.

I have a lot of respect for the RC hobbyist who builds his own airplane
from a kit or from scratch, assembling all the frame and wing sections,
flaps, ailerons, tail, etc. Then he covers the airframe with paper or
cloth and seals it. He wires all the control motors and tests.
Might take him the better part of a year to do at a cost of several
thousand dollars. Then he gets the satisfaction of it's first
successful flight. To me, that's a true RC hobbyist.

Ordering one from Amazon, ready to fly, for a couple of hundred bucks
and a pair of aviator sun glasses just isn't the same thing to me.

On 2/17/2015 6:45 PM, Califbill wrote:
"Mr. Luddite" wrote:
On 2/16/2015 6:31 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 12:25:26 PM UTC-5, John H. wrote:

The big difference between simulators/real airplanes and RC airplanes - in sims or
real planes, the nose of the plane is in front of you. With an RC plane, at least
part of the time, the nose is pointed at you. That means the left and right controls
are reversed. This, I believe, is what causes the most problems, at least for me.

Another related difference is that pilots in a real plane has a seat of
the pants, first person view. Not so with RC.

Something that helps newbies to RC is that when the airplane is flying
towards you and the controls are reversed, your can turn your body so
the transmitter is faced the same way as the plane, but look back over
your shoulder at the plane. That way the stick moves to the right, the
plane moves to the right. It's a crutch, but with some more stick time
it'll come naturally.



I don't think there's much at all in common comparing RC flying and
flying a real airplane. Speed scale is totally different. Turns
and maneuvers are not anything close to being realistic to flying an
airplane.

I see it as a fun hobby for many but to compare it to actually flying
an airplane it isn't even close.

I have flown PC flight simulators and have an hour in a 3 axis 707
simulator. The 707 was Western Airlines simulator. Totally different
animals. Biggest problem flying a real simulator that acts just like a
real airplane. Is response times. MS simulator you move the stick the
plane turns quickly, and responds quickly. Real airline plane has mass and
momentum. You have to plan ahead and turn to stop the turn before the turn
is complete.



You can change the sensitivities in the Microsoft Simulator ... or at
least you could back when I was messing around with it. I found that
customizing the settings from the defaults resulted in a much more
realistic feel to the controls. I used to fly the real thing, then
go home and fly the same airplane on the simulator for practice.
The flight school encouraged it.