On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 19:11:06 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/17/2015 6:29 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 17, 2015 at 4:37:37 PM UTC-5, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/17/2015 12:25 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 20:18:55 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/16/2015 7:54 PM, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 2/16/15 7:08 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/16/2015 6:31 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 12:25:26 PM UTC-5, John H. wrote:

The big difference between simulators/real airplanes and RC airplanes
- in sims or
real planes, the nose of the plane is in front of you. With an RC
plane, at least
part of the time, the nose is pointed at you. That means the left and
right controls
are reversed. This, I believe, is what causes the most problems, at
least for me.

Another related difference is that pilots in a real plane has a seat
of the pants, first person view. Not so with RC.

Something that helps newbies to RC is that when the airplane is flying
towards you and the controls are reversed, your can turn your body so
the transmitter is faced the same way as the plane, but look back over
your shoulder at the plane. That way the stick moves to the right,
the plane moves to the right. It's a crutch, but with some more stick
time it'll come naturally.



I don't think there's much at all in common comparing RC flying and
flying a real airplane. Speed scale is totally different. Turns
and maneuvers are not anything close to being realistic to flying an
airplane.

I see it as a fun hobby for many but to compare it to actually flying
an airplane it isn't even close.



What happens when your toy plane crashes? It breaks.
What happens when a real airplane crashes? Death and destruction.





True.

I've seen some large RC planes that appear to be very realistic in
flight, maneuvers, take-offs and landings but the smaller ones I've
seen people flying are way out of scale to anything real. They can
do turns, climbs, etc. that would cause a human pilot to pass out
or worse.

The bigger ones fly slower, maneuver more slowly and look much more
realistic.

The smaller ones, depending on the configuration, can fly slower, maneuver more
slowly and also look very realistic. My Apprentice, with its tremendous wing area,
can stay aloft at little more than a walking speed.

Something like this, on the other hand, requires some speed just to stay aloft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=uN5BD4e55hE

I am not knocking those who enjoy the RC hobby thing. I just don't
think you can come close to comparing it to actual flying.



Why not? Granted, you're not in the airplane, but other than that what's the big
difference?

Well, I've done both. Again I am not knocking your RC hobby but you
really cannot compare the two. Like I suggested in a different post,
go take an introductory flight lesson. Then you can compare for yourself.

So have I. Haven't landed a full scale, but have flown a 150, and been up in a 182, Beechcraft Bonanza (regular and V tail) and Baron, and a Zlin for some aerobatics. A little stick time in most. Funny, the plane reacted pretty much the same to control inputs as any other plane, RC or full scale.

But you were correct in your other post. Full scale is easier to *fly*. All of the procedural stuff and instruments are much more involved, but the mechanics of flight are the *same*. Except RC lacks the seat of the pants and FPV input that full scale pilots enjoy.

You're projecting the arrogance that typical full scale pilots exhibit. The jokes about that are endless! I've also spent lots of time in airport ramp towers, pilots lounges, and major airline OCCs (operational control centers). I know a good bit about that.



I am not trying to project anything. I really don't give a ****. All I
was conveying is some experience with flying versus flying RC model
airplanes. Both you and John have some experience flying an airplane
after takeoff and before landing and think that because the controls
do the same to the full scale as they do on a RC, then RC flying is like
real flying.

There you go, putting words in the mouths of others.



That's where I lose both of you. Flying an airplane
straight and level and maybe making some turns isn't the full scope of
"flying".

Question for you. I ask because I had a hard time with this at first.

When flying an airplane, what controls altitude? What controls speed?
--

Guns don't cause problems. The behavior
of certain gun owners causes problems.

On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 18:37:52 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 18:05:07 -0500, Abit Loco
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 16:28:55 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/17/2015 12:16 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 19:08:08 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/16/2015 6:31 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 12:25:26 PM UTC-5, John H. wrote:

The big difference between simulators/real airplanes and RC airplanes - in sims or
real planes, the nose of the plane is in front of you. With an RC plane, at least
part of the time, the nose is pointed at you. That means the left and right controls
are reversed. This, I believe, is what causes the most problems, at least for me.

Another related difference is that pilots in a real plane has a seat of the pants, first person view. Not so with RC.

Something that helps newbies to RC is that when the airplane is flying towards you and the controls are reversed, your can turn your body so the transmitter is faced the same way as the plane, but look back over your shoulder at the plane. That way the stick moves to the right, the plane moves to the right. It's a crutch, but with some more stick time it'll come naturally.



I don't think there's much at all in common comparing RC flying and
flying a real airplane. Speed scale is totally different. Turns
and maneuvers are not anything close to being realistic to flying an
airplane.

I see it as a fun hobby for many but to compare it to actually flying
an airplane it isn't even close.


Many of the airplanes flown at our field fly in excess of 100mph - and that's
measured by radar.

One of our guys has one of these:
http://www.modelairplanenews.com/blo...ini-radar-gun/

They measure real speed, not scale speed.

Since I've never flown a real airplane, I can't argue your 'turns and maneuvers'
statement. I know that if I bank my airplane using the ailerons and don't give it
some up elevator, it will head for the dirt. Perhaps you could tell us what the big
differences are.

I'm thinking the biggest difference is that my crash isn't going to kill anyone. Oh,
and my pre-flight checklist is shorter!


An introductory flight lesson is cheap. Used to be about $50 for a half
hour but maybe it's gone up now.

If the CFI is halfway comfortable with how you follow directions, he'll
let you taxi, take off and "fly the pattern". He'll land it although he
may let you think you did.

Do that and then come back and tell me how similar RC flying is to
actually flying a real aircraft. You may be surprised. Flying a
real airplane might be simpler.


Geezie Pete - this is getting you wrapped around an axle, isn't it.

While in Vietnam I was lucky enough to go up in an OV-10 for a three hour flight. The
pilot was nice enough to let me fly the plane for about a half hour after flying our
missions.

There are a lot of similarities, especially in the controls. Pulling the stick back
on the OV-10 does the same thing as pulling the stick back on the RC xmtr. And, not
giving the plane some throttle when doing so could cause a stall - as the OV-10 pilot
told me. Only his words were, "Do you want to crash?" Me, "No". Him, "Well you'd
better give it some throttle."

The guy in San Diego let me "fly" this plane but I was never confused
that I was in control.

I think I might have better luck in a plane than an RC tho.
One is closer to riding a motorcycle, the other closer to a video
game.
I do bet a video game is a very good drone/RC trainer.

The RC simulators do give one practice in flying from in front of the nose of the
airplane.
--

Guns don't cause problems. The behavior
of certain gun owners causes problems.

On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 18:03:23 -0600, Califbill wrote:

Abit Loco wrote:
On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 15:29:23 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Tuesday, February 17, 2015 at 4:37:37 PM UTC-5, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/17/2015 12:25 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 20:18:55 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/16/2015 7:54 PM, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 2/16/15 7:08 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/16/2015 6:31 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 12:25:26 PM UTC-5, John H. wrote:

The big difference between simulators/real airplanes and RC airplanes
- in sims or
real planes, the nose of the plane is in front of you. With an RC
plane, at least
part of the time, the nose is pointed at you. That means the left and
right controls
are reversed. This, I believe, is what causes the most problems, at
least for me.

Another related difference is that pilots in a real plane has a seat
of the pants, first person view. Not so with RC.

Something that helps newbies to RC is that when the airplane is flying
towards you and the controls are reversed, your can turn your body so
the transmitter is faced the same way as the plane, but look back over
your shoulder at the plane. That way the stick moves to the right,
the plane moves to the right. It's a crutch, but with some more stick
time it'll come naturally.



I don't think there's much at all in common comparing RC flying and
flying a real airplane. Speed scale is totally different. Turns
and maneuvers are not anything close to being realistic to flying an
airplane.

I see it as a fun hobby for many but to compare it to actually flying
an airplane it isn't even close.



What happens when your toy plane crashes? It breaks.
What happens when a real airplane crashes? Death and destruction.





True.

I've seen some large RC planes that appear to be very realistic in
flight, maneuvers, take-offs and landings but the smaller ones I've
seen people flying are way out of scale to anything real. They can
do turns, climbs, etc. that would cause a human pilot to pass out
or worse.

The bigger ones fly slower, maneuver more slowly and look much more
realistic.

The smaller ones, depending on the configuration, can fly slower, maneuver more
slowly and also look very realistic. My Apprentice, with its tremendous wing area,
can stay aloft at little more than a walking speed.

Something like this, on the other hand, requires some speed just to stay aloft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=uN5BD4e55hE

I am not knocking those who enjoy the RC hobby thing. I just don't
think you can come close to comparing it to actual flying.



Why not? Granted, you're not in the airplane, but other than that what's the big
difference?

Well, I've done both. Again I am not knocking your RC hobby but you
really cannot compare the two. Like I suggested in a different post,
go take an introductory flight lesson. Then you can compare for yourself.

So have I. Haven't landed a full scale, but have flown a 150, and been
up in a 182, Beechcraft Bonanza (regular and V tail) and Baron, and a
Zlin for some aerobatics. A little stick time in most. Funny, the
plane reacted pretty much the same to control inputs as any other plane, RC or full scale.

But you were correct in your other post. Full scale is easier to *fly*.
All of the procedural stuff and instruments are much more involved, but
the mechanics of flight are the *same*. Except RC lacks the seat of the
pants and FPV input that full scale pilots enjoy.

You're projecting the arrogance that typical full scale pilots exhibit.
The jokes about that are endless! I've also spent lots of time in
airport ramp towers, pilots lounges, and major airline OCCs (operational
control centers). I know a good bit about that.

Betcha none of those 'real' pilots are as arrogant as an Army Warrant Officer
helicopter pilot!

I turned down that job opportunity. Army offered me that when I was
finishing up AF training at Keesler AFB. Told the sarg that 1965 was not a
good year to fly choppers. Funny thing, I do not ever think I saw pilots
in the control tower in my times there. I was originally trained on ILS
systems. So we spent time in the tower where a lot of our controls were,
and my Captain was not allowed to go.

I had a heart problem (PVCs) that kept me out of flight school. Funny thing is that
about ten years later they'd disappeared and have never returned.
--

Guns don't cause problems. The behavior
of certain gun owners causes problems.

On 2/17/2015 6:50 PM, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 2/17/15 5:22 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/17/2015 5:10 PM, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 2/17/15 4:37 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/17/2015 12:25 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 20:18:55 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/16/2015 7:54 PM, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 2/16/15 7:08 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/16/2015 6:31 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 12:25:26 PM UTC-5, John H. wrote:

The big difference between simulators/real airplanes and RC
airplanes
- in sims or
real planes, the nose of the plane is in front of you. With an RC
plane, at least
part of the time, the nose is pointed at you. That means the left
and
right controls
are reversed. This, I believe, is what causes the most
problems, at
least for me.

Another related difference is that pilots in a real plane has a
seat
of the pants, first person view. Not so with RC.

Something that helps newbies to RC is that when the airplane is
flying
towards you and the controls are reversed, your can turn your
body so
the transmitter is faced the same way as the plane, but look back
over
your shoulder at the plane. That way the stick moves to the
right,
the plane moves to the right. It's a crutch, but with some more
stick
time it'll come naturally.



I don't think there's much at all in common comparing RC flying and
flying a real airplane. Speed scale is totally different. Turns
and maneuvers are not anything close to being realistic to
flying an
airplane.

I see it as a fun hobby for many but to compare it to actually
flying
an airplane it isn't even close.



What happens when your toy plane crashes? It breaks.
What happens when a real airplane crashes? Death and destruction.





True.

I've seen some large RC planes that appear to be very realistic in
flight, maneuvers, take-offs and landings but the smaller ones I've
seen people flying are way out of scale to anything real. They can
do turns, climbs, etc. that would cause a human pilot to pass out
or worse.

The bigger ones fly slower, maneuver more slowly and look much more
realistic.

The smaller ones, depending on the configuration, can fly slower,
maneuver more
slowly and also look very realistic. My Apprentice, with its
tremendous wing area,
can stay aloft at little more than a walking speed.

Something like this, on the other hand, requires some speed just to
stay aloft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=uN5BD4e55hE

I am not knocking those who enjoy the RC hobby thing. I just don't
think you can come close to comparing it to actual flying.



Why not? Granted, you're not in the airplane, but other than that
what's the big
difference?

Well, I've done both. Again I am not knocking your RC hobby but you
really cannot compare the two. Like I suggested in a different post,
go take an introductory flight lesson. Then you can compare for
yourself.





This is really funny stuff...thanks, Luddite. And remember, driving
that RC boat in a swimming pool is just like driving a real boat through
a ferocious inlet. I mean, what's the difference?



This is a common debate between RC pilots and those who hold a pilot's
license. Like I said before I don't knock those to enjoy the RC thing.
It's fun for many but it's a totally different experience.
Sure, there are similarities in the respect that both have wings
and go up in the air. But that's about it.

I did all of my flight instruction in a Cessna 152. After I soloed I
flew the 152 and a 150 quite a bit. I did the cross country phase and
final check flight for my ticket in a Cessna 172. All the Cessna's were
high winged aircraft.

After a while I wanted to try something different, so I arranged for a
checkout flight in a Piper Warrior which is more powerful and low
winged. Felt like I was flying a Boeing 747 by comparison.

That all said, I am glad I did it but I also realized I am not a
"natural" pilot who enjoys the stresses of flying. I like boating much
more.



When I worked for the teachers union, I got to fly around a bit in one
of its regional airplanes, a King Air. I remember once the pilot let me
sit in the second chair while he was landing at LaGuardia. If I had any
thought of taking flying lessons, that experience changed my mind. Too
much going on with the plane, the radio, other traffic, et cetera. I'm
sure flying a model plane is "just as difficult."




That's exactly why I lost interest in flying. I thought it was going to
be relaxing and fun but I found it could be stressful, especially on
weekends when all the student pilots were in the air. The little
airport I flew out of (Plymouth) is an uncontrolled airport, so watching
for and communicating with traffic was constant.

I still go down and fly two or three times a year. My medical expired
long ago, so I always go up with an instructor. I usually just fly the
pattern several times, practicing landings, then get bored and go home.

On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 19:01:27 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/17/2015 6:09 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 16:48:31 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/17/2015 12:59 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 12:44:43 -0500, Abit Loco
wrote:

You keep saying its not similar to actual flying. How do the control surfaces behave
differently? What is the power to weight ration of the 'real' airplanes to which you
refer? Do RC airplanes have a lot more power to weight? Less?

When you are flying a real plane, you feel the surfaces reacting in
the seat of your pants


Heh. You feel a hell of a lot more than that. Take off on a windy day
with a lot of turbulence. Better yet, try landing under the same
conditions with a stiff crosswind.


The effect is the same on an RC plane.


Bull****. Sorry.

No sweat. Apology accepted.
--

Guns don't cause problems. The behavior
of certain gun owners causes problems.

On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 19:03:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/17/2015 6:11 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 14:47:49 -0800 (PST), True North wrote:

I'm not sure it's a good idea to encourage Johnny to try real flying.
If he has half the problems with a real plane as he does with his toy versions....Lord help the local folk.

You have to admit, it's kind of fun watching Krause and Eriksson 'gang up' on Herring
over something so ridiculous.

What a laugh!


Ganging up?

I told you that I am not knocking your RC flying hobby. It's fun for many.

You are the one who is trying to convince me and others that flying a RC
airplane is similar to real flying.

There are similarities. Period. That's all anyone here has said.

I think that ingrained pilot arrogance is rearing its ugly head.

Done for today. Sleep well.
--

Guns don't cause problems. The behavior
of certain gun owners causes problems.

On 2/17/15 7:27 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 19:00:07 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/17/2015 6:05 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 16:28:55 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/17/2015 12:16 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 19:08:08 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/16/2015 6:31 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 12:25:26 PM UTC-5, John H. wrote:

The big difference between simulators/real airplanes and RC
airplanes - in sims or
real planes, the nose of the plane is in front of you. With an
RC plane, at least
part of the time, the nose is pointed at you. That means the
left and right controls
are reversed. This, I believe, is what causes the most
problems, at least for me.

Another related difference is that pilots in a real plane has a
seat of the pants, first person view. Not so with RC.

Something that helps newbies to RC is that when the airplane is
flying towards you and the controls are reversed, your can turn
your body so the transmitter is faced the same way as the plane,
but look back over your shoulder at the plane. That way the
stick moves to the right, the plane moves to the right. It's a
crutch, but with some more stick time it'll come naturally.



I don't think there's much at all in common comparing RC flying and
flying a real airplane. Speed scale is totally different. Turns
and maneuvers are not anything close to being realistic to flying an
airplane.

I see it as a fun hobby for many but to compare it to actually
flying
an airplane it isn't even close.


Many of the airplanes flown at our field fly in excess of 100mph -
and that's
measured by radar.

One of our guys has one of these:
http://www.modelairplanenews.com/blo...ini-radar-gun/


They measure real speed, not scale speed.

Since I've never flown a real airplane, I can't argue your 'turns
and maneuvers'
statement. I know that if I bank my airplane using the ailerons
and don't give it
some up elevator, it will head for the dirt. Perhaps you could
tell us what the big
differences are.

I'm thinking the biggest difference is that my crash isn't going
to kill anyone. Oh,
and my pre-flight checklist is shorter!


An introductory flight lesson is cheap. Used to be about $50 for a
half
hour but maybe it's gone up now.

If the CFI is halfway comfortable with how you follow directions,
he'll
let you taxi, take off and "fly the pattern". He'll land it
although he
may let you think you did.

Do that and then come back and tell me how similar RC flying is to
actually flying a real aircraft. You may be surprised. Flying a
real airplane might be simpler.


Geezie Pete - this is getting you wrapped around an axle, isn't it.

While in Vietnam I was lucky enough to go up in an OV-10 for a three
hour flight. The
pilot was nice enough to let me fly the plane for about a half hour
after flying our
missions.

There are a lot of similarities, especially in the controls. Pulling
the stick back
on the OV-10 does the same thing as pulling the stick back on the RC
xmtr. And, not
giving the plane some throttle when doing so could cause a stall -
as the OV-10 pilot
told me. Only his words were, "Do you want to crash?" Me, "No". Him,
"Well you'd
better give it some throttle."

There were a tremendous number of similarities.

Was it the same as flying an RC aircraft? Hell no. But, it was a tad
more difficult
than steering a train.



Not me getting wrapped around an axle. You are the one who thinks
flying RC airplanes is like flying a real one.

Putting words in my mouth, are you? Shame on you.

So you took the controls of an airplane after it took off and was flying
straight and level. I did that when I was 10 years old with a pilot
friend of my father.

I've never proclaimed myself to be the pilot you are.

Try "the hood". The hood is a device that you wear that limits your
field of view to the inside of the airplane only. All you can see is
the instruments. Your instructor will take control of the airplane and
put it in an unusual attitude meaning it may be banked over and
descending or in a banked climb nearing stall. He'll then say, "Your
plane" and you learn to recover using instruments only with no ground
reference. When you are in a banked turn, you can't tell by the seat
of your pants. The airplane could be standing on one wing tip and you
wouldn't know other than by instruments.


Don't need to. Not interested in getting a 'real' pilot's license. I
have a hard
enough time with RC planes - as do a lot of 'real' pilots, and I'm not
talking piper
cub guys.


Yet just a few posts ago you were asking what the "differences" are.

On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 17:10:34 -0500, Keyser Söze
wrote:

This is really funny stuff...thanks, Luddite. And remember, driving
that RC boat in a swimming pool is just like driving a real boat through
a ferocious inlet. I mean, what's the difference?

===

What the heck would you know about driving a *real* boat through a
ferocious inlet? Really.

With regard to Dick's suggestion about taking a flying lesson, I
highly recommend it. Introductory lessons are usually priced at
reasonable rates and it will give you a taste of the real deal. You'll
find it quite interesting. My first lesson was in a Piper J3 tail
dragger with no doors or windows and controlled with a "stick".
It was about as basic as you can get short of an ultra light.

On 2/17/2015 8:22 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 19:03:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/17/2015 6:11 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 14:47:49 -0800 (PST), True North wrote:

I'm not sure it's a good idea to encourage Johnny to try real flying.
If he has half the problems with a real plane as he does with his toy versions....Lord help the local folk.

You have to admit, it's kind of fun watching Krause and Eriksson 'gang up' on Herring
over something so ridiculous.

What a laugh!


Ganging up?

I told you that I am not knocking your RC flying hobby. It's fun for many.

You are the one who is trying to convince me and others that flying a RC
airplane is similar to real flying.

There are similarities. Period. That's all anyone here has said.

I think that ingrained pilot arrogance is rearing its ugly head.

Done for today. Sleep well.



I can more clearly understand why some consider you an asshole.
I wasn't looking for a fight nor was I boasting about having a pilot's
license. I acknowledged that I wasn't knocking your hobby and I
acknowledged that I am not a "natural" pilot and didn't particularly
find it relaxing or even fun.

You are the one who asked what the differences where. I tried to
present a few and you respond with the pilot arrogance thing.

You remind me of an old lady sometimes. Amazing that you made it in the
Army for so long.

On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 17:22:57 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

This is a common debate between RC pilots and those who hold a pilot's
license. Like I said before I don't knock those to enjoy the RC thing.
It's fun for many but it's a totally different experience.
Sure, there are similarities in the respect that both have wings
and go up in the air. But that's about it.

I did all of my flight instruction in a Cessna 152. After I soloed I
flew the 152 and a 150 quite a bit. I did the cross country phase and
final check flight for my ticket in a Cessna 172. All the Cessna's were
high winged aircraft.

After a while I wanted to try something different, so I arranged for a
checkout flight in a Piper Warrior which is more powerful and low
winged. Felt like I was flying a Boeing 747 by comparison.

That all said, I am glad I did it but I also realized I am not a
"natural" pilot who enjoys the stresses of flying. I like boating much
more.

===

I agree with all that, and most importantly, boats do not fall from
the sky when you screw up. :-)