On 2/18/2015 2:58 PM, Stick Left-Steer Left wrote:
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 14:47:19 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/18/2015 11:19 AM, Stick Left-Steer Left wrote:
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 11:10:31 -0500, Justan Olphart wrote:

On 2/18/2015 8:19 AM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 19:47:19 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/17/2015 6:30 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 16:46:45 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/17/2015 12:44 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 20:35:18 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/16/2015 8:18 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 7:08:10 PM UTC-5, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/16/2015 6:31 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 12:25:26 PM UTC-5, John H. wrote:

The big difference between simulators/real airplanes and RC airplanes - in sims or
real planes, the nose of the plane is in front of you. With an RC plane, at least
part of the time, the nose is pointed at you. That means the left and right controls
are reversed. This, I believe, is what causes the most problems, at least for me.

Another related difference is that pilots in a real plane has a seat of the pants, first person view. Not so with RC.

Something that helps newbies to RC is that when the airplane is flying towards you and the controls are reversed, your can turn your body so the transmitter is faced the same way as the plane, but look back over your shoulder at the plane. That way the stick moves to the right, the plane moves to the right. It's a crutch, but with some more stick time it'll come naturally.



I don't think there's much at all in common comparing RC flying and
flying a real airplane. Speed scale is totally different. Turns
and maneuvers are not anything close to being realistic to flying an
airplane.

I see it as a fun hobby for many but to compare it to actually flying
an airplane it isn't even close.

If you think about it, it's very similar. The same rules apply, the aircraft reacts the same way. RC planes can do things that real planes can't, but they also suffer from the fact that they don't fly quite the same way. Said another way, the air molecules are still the same size, while the wings and control surfaces of RC planes are far smaller. That's why truly scale RC planes don't tend to fly very well.

Good RC pilots can fly very realistically. I saw a jet done up in Fed-Ex colors being flown slowly and with coordinated turns. It looked very real, except for the size, although it was still large with about a 10 foot wingspan.

But while you may have not meant it, your attitude is common with "real" pilots. They think of RC planes as toys. And they crash them when they first try to fly them, thinking that if they can fly the real thing, they can fly the toy. They cannot.

Real pilots hope to walk away from a crash. RC pilots walk towards it!



I wasn't knocking RC flying. I know a lot of people enjoy it. I also
know a lot of people who think it's similar to actual flying (which it
isn't). As you point out the scale is totally different, the power to
weight ratio is different and the control surfaces behave differently.
I've tried a couple once in flight. You're right. I can land an
airplane but I'd crash an RC if I tried applying my flying instincts and
control.

Back when I was flying I used to play with whatever the current version
of Microsoft Flight Simulator was at the time. I had the yoke and pedal
controller set up. It was not exactly like flying but was pretty close
in many ways, especially how the wing surfaces reacted in the simulator.
Even more realistic when you added in a little "weather" and turbulence.
I think that was much closer to the "feel" of actually flying than a RC
plane can ever be.


Flight simulators such as Microsoft's have very, very little resemblance to RC
flying.

You keep saying its not similar to actual flying. How do the control surfaces behave
differently? What is the power to weight ration of the 'real' airplanes to which you
refer? Do RC airplanes have a lot more power to weight? Less?

Here are the motor specs for my motor:

Power 15 Brushless Outrunner Motor, 950Kv
Key Features

Equivalent to a 15-size glow engine for sport and scale airplanes weighing 36–56
oz (1020–1590 g)
Ideal for 3D airplanes weighing 32–40 oz (910–1135 g)
Ideal for models requiring up to 575 watts of power
High-torque, direct-drive alternative to inrunner brushless motors
Includes mount, prop adapters and mounting hardware
External rotor design—5mm shaft can easily be reversed for alternative motor
installations
Slotted 14-pole outrunner design
High-quality construction with ball bearings and hardened steel shaft

Here are my airplane specs:

Apprentice S 15e RTF with SAFE
Product Specifications
Wingspan: 59.0 in (1500mm)
Overall Length: 42.5 in (1080mm)
Wing Area: 515 sq. in. (33.2 sq. dm.)
Flying Weight: 49.0 oz (1390 g)
Motor Size: 15-size brushless outrunner
Radio: Spektrum DX5e transmitter (included)
CG (center of gravity): 3-1/8 in (79.0mm) back from the leading edge of wing
Prop Size: 11 x 8
Speed Control : 30-amp brushless (installed)
Recommended Battery: 11.1V 3S 3200mAh LiPo (included)
Flaps: No
Retracts: No
Control Throw (Ailerons): Low: 0.71 in (18mm); High: 0.91 in (23mm)
Control Throw (Elevator): Low: 0.71 in (18mm); High: 0.91 in (23mm)
Control Throw (Rudder): Low: 1.10 in (28mm); High: 1.35 in (35mm)

How does one compare the 'power to weight' ratio?

RC planes can climb faster than any comparable
"real" airplane. How fast can you climb? Pretty much like a rocket.
A real airplane doesn't climb like that and to try it would result in
a stall very quickly. A real airplane requires taking weight,
temperature, altitude and air density as factors. With RC flying, none
of those issues matter much.

Try flying a real airplane. Then you are qualified to judge and compare.

If I tried to climb vertically with the Apprentice, I'd be in a stall very quickly.
if the power is up it will do a loop, but not climb like the 3D planes discussed
earlier.

It's absolutely true that I don't worry much about temperature and air density as
factors. Weight and its distribution are important, as is altitude. Too high and I've
violated FCC regs and/or lost sight of the aircraft.

A real F/A-18 will probably climb faster than any of the scale RC aircraft and is
probably much faster. I've never seen any RC aircraft that could climb at 50,000
feet/min or fly 1000 mph, and that would include a scale RC F/A-18. But, maybe you
have.



A little sensitive about your newly found hobby, aren't you?



Do my comments about an F/A-18 sound sensitive? Or was that just the best rebuttal
you could come up with? You were the one telling us what real airplanes could not do.


I don't know why you two can't get along. It's not as if either one of
you is a Harry Krause type.

I'm trying to answer his questions as best I can. I'm thinking the RC aircraft he
flew was his neighbor's quadcopter. That would explain all the questions he had about
flying an RC airplane.



And you would be wrong. Again.


Well, if you've flown an RC airplane, why all the questions about take offs,
landings, taxiing, pre-flight checks, etc.

Seems like you'd know the answers.

I notice you didn't respond to the answers I gave you. But that's pretty much your
MO, isn't it?


If you want I will say something about countersteering and you both can
come after me.... but the two of you need to knock it off.

On 2/18/2015 9:31 AM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 09:19:58 -0500, KC wrote:

On 2/17/2015 12:16 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 19:08:08 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/16/2015 6:31 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 12:25:26 PM UTC-5, John H. wrote:

The big difference between simulators/real airplanes and RC airplanes - in sims or
real planes, the nose of the plane is in front of you. With an RC plane, at least
part of the time, the nose is pointed at you. That means the left and right controls
are reversed. This, I believe, is what causes the most problems, at least for me.

Another related difference is that pilots in a real plane has a seat of the pants, first person view. Not so with RC.

Something that helps newbies to RC is that when the airplane is flying towards you and the controls are reversed, your can turn your body so the transmitter is faced the same way as the plane, but look back over your shoulder at the plane. That way the stick moves to the right, the plane moves to the right. It's a crutch, but with some more stick time it'll come naturally.



I don't think there's much at all in common comparing RC flying and
flying a real airplane. Speed scale is totally different. Turns
and maneuvers are not anything close to being realistic to flying an
airplane.

I see it as a fun hobby for many but to compare it to actually flying
an airplane it isn't even close.


Many of the airplanes flown at our field fly in excess of 100mph - and that's
measured by radar.

One of our guys has one of these:
http://www.modelairplanenews.com/blo...ini-radar-gun/

They measure real speed, not scale speed.

Since I've never flown a real airplane, I can't argue your 'turns and maneuvers'
statement. I know that if I bank my airplane using the ailerons and don't give it
some up elevator, it will head for the dirt. Perhaps you could tell us what the big
differences are.

I'm thinking the biggest difference is that my crash isn't going to kill anyone. Oh,
and my pre-flight checklist is shorter!


Has anybody mentioned the seat of the pants feeling? I mean, that must
help you fly in some respect feeling the plane under you?

Yup, that was mentioned. That feeling does not occur when flying an RC aircraft,
although some asshole puckering often does.


That's the part that facinates me... I have always worked out eyes
closed to the point where do very tight things sometimes I catch myself
with my eyes closed... it's a thing.. Anyway, I have always wondered how
much input you get from your "pants" and which of the input you can
trust in that environment...

On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 20:13:06 -0500, KC wrote:

On 2/18/2015 4:05 PM, Stick Left-Steer Left wrote:
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 15:37:57 -0500, Wayne.B wrote:

On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 15:07:12 -0500, wrote:

All the work needs to be done by a licensed mechanic and parts make
boat parts look like peanuts.

===

Every single part has to be certified and traceable back to its place
and date of manufacture.

You can't buy 'em out behind the shed from someone's trunk at a 'plane show' in
Virginia?

Well, ****. Guess I'll have to do without.


There are a lot of very airworthy and proven "experimental" aircraft out
there. Are they held to the same standard as registered aircraft? There
is a huge rc club down by our practice track. I have seen everything
from gas and electric rc planes to manned single seat eggbeaters and
several kinds of ultra light paragliders, etc take off and fly around there.

===

I'm not an expert on the regulations but I do know that experimental
aircraft are not held to the same standards. Whether they are truly
airworthy or not could be debated. I believe that John Denver died
flying an experimental aircraft, and a former neighbor of mine almost
killed himself crashing an ultra light last year. Another former
neighbor was left crippled for life after crashing a home built
(experimental) plane.

On 2/18/2015 3:00 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/18/2015 9:19 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/17/2015 12:16 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 19:08:08 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/16/2015 6:31 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 12:25:26 PM UTC-5, John H. wrote:

The big difference between simulators/real airplanes and RC
airplanes - in sims or
real planes, the nose of the plane is in front of you. With an RC
plane, at least
part of the time, the nose is pointed at you. That means the left
and right controls
are reversed. This, I believe, is what causes the most problems, at
least for me.

Another related difference is that pilots in a real plane has a seat
of the pants, first person view. Not so with RC.

Something that helps newbies to RC is that when the airplane is
flying towards you and the controls are reversed, your can turn your
body so the transmitter is faced the same way as the plane, but look
back over your shoulder at the plane. That way the stick moves to
the right, the plane moves to the right. It's a crutch, but with
some more stick time it'll come naturally.



I don't think there's much at all in common comparing RC flying and
flying a real airplane. Speed scale is totally different. Turns
and maneuvers are not anything close to being realistic to flying an
airplane.

I see it as a fun hobby for many but to compare it to actually flying
an airplane it isn't even close.


Many of the airplanes flown at our field fly in excess of 100mph - and
that's
measured by radar.

One of our guys has one of these:
http://www.modelairplanenews.com/blo...ini-radar-gun/



They measure real speed, not scale speed.

Since I've never flown a real airplane, I can't argue your 'turns and
maneuvers'
statement. I know that if I bank my airplane using the ailerons and
don't give it
some up elevator, it will head for the dirt. Perhaps you could tell us
what the big
differences are.

I'm thinking the biggest difference is that my crash isn't going to
kill anyone. Oh,
and my pre-flight checklist is shorter!


Has anybody mentioned the seat of the pants feeling? I mean, that must
help you fly in some respect feeling the plane under you?


"Seat of the pants" flying is something that a person with a natural
pilot aptitude develops. I never have. At one point in the flight
instruction period my CFI commented that engineering types often have a
tough time developing a "feel" for the airplane. We tend to be too
analytical and fly "by the books". He was right. I took me longer
than normal to feel totally comfortable flying.



I think it might correlate somewhat to riding a bike in bad conditions
like crooked ruts or bad bump areas... we look way ahead and feel the
bike go though.. sound about right? One of the hardest things to do is
going through a long 60 foot long rut, 4 inches wide and 18 inches deep
with crossruts and lots of squiggles and loosen up on the bars so you
are really just marking their positition rather than steering the
bike... I am very good at it because for some stupid reason I trust my
bike and literally go through with my fingertips on the grips.. when I
crash though, it's bad...

On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 20:22:02 -0500, KC wrote:

If you want I will say something about countersteering and you both can
come after me.... but the two of you need to knock it off.

===

Funny you should mention countersteering. One of my new boat toys
over the past year is an electric bicycle. Remembering the spirited
(and sometimes contentious) discussions about countersteering, I did a
few experiments on the bike. Nudging the handle bars a tad to the
left did induce a lean to the left which of course is essential for a
left turn. Vice versa of course nudging to the right. I think this
is something that we normally do without really thinking about it,
sort of the same way that we don't usually think about balancing.

On 2/18/2015 8:24 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/18/2015 9:31 AM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 09:19:58 -0500, KC wrote:

On 2/17/2015 12:16 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 19:08:08 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/16/2015 6:31 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 12:25:26 PM UTC-5, John H. wrote:

The big difference between simulators/real airplanes and RC
airplanes - in sims or
real planes, the nose of the plane is in front of you. With an RC
plane, at least
part of the time, the nose is pointed at you. That means the left
and right controls
are reversed. This, I believe, is what causes the most problems,
at least for me.

Another related difference is that pilots in a real plane has a
seat of the pants, first person view. Not so with RC.

Something that helps newbies to RC is that when the airplane is
flying towards you and the controls are reversed, your can turn
your body so the transmitter is faced the same way as the plane,
but look back over your shoulder at the plane. That way the stick
moves to the right, the plane moves to the right. It's a crutch,
but with some more stick time it'll come naturally.



I don't think there's much at all in common comparing RC flying and
flying a real airplane. Speed scale is totally different. Turns
and maneuvers are not anything close to being realistic to flying an
airplane.

I see it as a fun hobby for many but to compare it to actually flying
an airplane it isn't even close.


Many of the airplanes flown at our field fly in excess of 100mph -
and that's
measured by radar.

One of our guys has one of these:
http://www.modelairplanenews.com/blo...ini-radar-gun/


They measure real speed, not scale speed.

Since I've never flown a real airplane, I can't argue your 'turns
and maneuvers'
statement. I know that if I bank my airplane using the ailerons and
don't give it
some up elevator, it will head for the dirt. Perhaps you could tell
us what the big
differences are.

I'm thinking the biggest difference is that my crash isn't going to
kill anyone. Oh,
and my pre-flight checklist is shorter!


Has anybody mentioned the seat of the pants feeling? I mean, that must
help you fly in some respect feeling the plane under you?

Yup, that was mentioned. That feeling does not occur when flying an RC
aircraft,
although some asshole puckering often does.


That's the part that facinates me... I have always worked out eyes
closed to the point where do very tight things sometimes I catch myself
with my eyes closed... it's a thing.. Anyway, I have always wondered how
much input you get from your "pants" and which of the input you can
trust in that environment...


If you were flying an airplane straight and level and then were
blindfolded so you couldn't see the instruments or have any ground
reference, you would fairly quickly find yourself in some kind of
unusual attitude. You might have the airplane climbing, banking,
descending or even with the wings perpendicular to the ground. You
wouldn't know it or detect it by any "seat of the pants" input.

On 2/18/2015 8:51 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 20:22:02 -0500, KC wrote:

If you want I will say something about countersteering and you both can
come after me.... but the two of you need to knock it off.

===

Funny you should mention countersteering. One of my new boat toys
over the past year is an electric bicycle. Remembering the spirited
(and sometimes contentious) discussions about countersteering, I did a
few experiments on the bike. Nudging the handle bars a tad to the
left did induce a lean to the left which of course is essential for a
left turn. Vice versa of course nudging to the right. I think this
is something that we normally do without really thinking about it,
sort of the same way that we don't usually think about balancing.



In order to avoid any confusion I think you should clarify your statement.

When you say "nudge the handle bars (plural) a tad to the left"
is the right handle bar pushed forward slightly with the left
handle bar pulled back an equal amount? If so, that's not
counter steering but would be appropriate at very slow speeds.

If, in fact, the opposite is true, meaning the *left* handle bar
is nudged forward slightly with the right handle bar pulled back
an equal amount and you make a *left* turn ... that is counter steering.

On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 20:55:53 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/18/2015 8:24 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/18/2015 9:31 AM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 09:19:58 -0500, KC wrote:

On 2/17/2015 12:16 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 19:08:08 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/16/2015 6:31 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 12:25:26 PM UTC-5, John H. wrote:

The big difference between simulators/real airplanes and RC
airplanes - in sims or
real planes, the nose of the plane is in front of you. With an RC
plane, at least
part of the time, the nose is pointed at you. That means the left
and right controls
are reversed. This, I believe, is what causes the most problems,
at least for me.

Another related difference is that pilots in a real plane has a
seat of the pants, first person view. Not so with RC.

Something that helps newbies to RC is that when the airplane is
flying towards you and the controls are reversed, your can turn
your body so the transmitter is faced the same way as the plane,
but look back over your shoulder at the plane. That way the stick
moves to the right, the plane moves to the right. It's a crutch,
but with some more stick time it'll come naturally.



I don't think there's much at all in common comparing RC flying and
flying a real airplane. Speed scale is totally different. Turns
and maneuvers are not anything close to being realistic to flying an
airplane.

I see it as a fun hobby for many but to compare it to actually flying
an airplane it isn't even close.


Many of the airplanes flown at our field fly in excess of 100mph -
and that's
measured by radar.

One of our guys has one of these:
http://www.modelairplanenews.com/blo...ini-radar-gun/


They measure real speed, not scale speed.

Since I've never flown a real airplane, I can't argue your 'turns
and maneuvers'
statement. I know that if I bank my airplane using the ailerons and
don't give it
some up elevator, it will head for the dirt. Perhaps you could tell
us what the big
differences are.

I'm thinking the biggest difference is that my crash isn't going to
kill anyone. Oh,
and my pre-flight checklist is shorter!


Has anybody mentioned the seat of the pants feeling? I mean, that must
help you fly in some respect feeling the plane under you?

Yup, that was mentioned. That feeling does not occur when flying an RC
aircraft,
although some asshole puckering often does.


That's the part that facinates me... I have always worked out eyes
closed to the point where do very tight things sometimes I catch myself
with my eyes closed... it's a thing.. Anyway, I have always wondered how
much input you get from your "pants" and which of the input you can
trust in that environment...


If you were flying an airplane straight and level and then were
blindfolded so you couldn't see the instruments or have any ground
reference, you would fairly quickly find yourself in some kind of
unusual attitude. You might have the airplane climbing, banking,
descending or even with the wings perpendicular to the ground. You
wouldn't know it or detect it by any "seat of the pants" input.

===

When I was taking lessons in a Cessna 172 the instructor used to tell
me that the plane would fly itself if you took your hands off of
everything. I think that assumes tthat you're already trimmed for
straight and level flight. I tried it a few times and it seemed to
work.

On 2/18/2015 9:07 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 20:55:53 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/18/2015 8:24 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/18/2015 9:31 AM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 09:19:58 -0500, KC wrote:

On 2/17/2015 12:16 PM, Abit Loco wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 19:08:08 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/16/2015 6:31 PM, wrote:
On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 12:25:26 PM UTC-5, John H. wrote:

The big difference between simulators/real airplanes and RC
airplanes - in sims or
real planes, the nose of the plane is in front of you. With an RC
plane, at least
part of the time, the nose is pointed at you. That means the left
and right controls
are reversed. This, I believe, is what causes the most problems,
at least for me.

Another related difference is that pilots in a real plane has a
seat of the pants, first person view. Not so with RC.

Something that helps newbies to RC is that when the airplane is
flying towards you and the controls are reversed, your can turn
your body so the transmitter is faced the same way as the plane,
but look back over your shoulder at the plane. That way the stick
moves to the right, the plane moves to the right. It's a crutch,
but with some more stick time it'll come naturally.



I don't think there's much at all in common comparing RC flying and
flying a real airplane. Speed scale is totally different. Turns
and maneuvers are not anything close to being realistic to flying an
airplane.

I see it as a fun hobby for many but to compare it to actually flying
an airplane it isn't even close.


Many of the airplanes flown at our field fly in excess of 100mph -
and that's
measured by radar.

One of our guys has one of these:
http://www.modelairplanenews.com/blo...ini-radar-gun/


They measure real speed, not scale speed.

Since I've never flown a real airplane, I can't argue your 'turns
and maneuvers'
statement. I know that if I bank my airplane using the ailerons and
don't give it
some up elevator, it will head for the dirt. Perhaps you could tell
us what the big
differences are.

I'm thinking the biggest difference is that my crash isn't going to
kill anyone. Oh,
and my pre-flight checklist is shorter!


Has anybody mentioned the seat of the pants feeling? I mean, that must
help you fly in some respect feeling the plane under you?

Yup, that was mentioned. That feeling does not occur when flying an RC
aircraft,
although some asshole puckering often does.


That's the part that facinates me... I have always worked out eyes
closed to the point where do very tight things sometimes I catch myself
with my eyes closed... it's a thing.. Anyway, I have always wondered how
much input you get from your "pants" and which of the input you can
trust in that environment...


If you were flying an airplane straight and level and then were
blindfolded so you couldn't see the instruments or have any ground
reference, you would fairly quickly find yourself in some kind of
unusual attitude. You might have the airplane climbing, banking,
descending or even with the wings perpendicular to the ground. You
wouldn't know it or detect it by any "seat of the pants" input.

===

When I was taking lessons in a Cessna 172 the instructor used to tell
me that the plane would fly itself if you took your hands off of
everything. I think that assumes tthat you're already trimmed for
straight and level flight. I tried it a few times and it seemed to
work.



That's true, especially in a Cessna. I wasn't referring to taking your
hands off the yoke or feet off the rudder however. I was referring to
flying the airplane based on no instrument or visual references. You
would input what your "sense" tells you but your sense would be all
screwed up due to no feedback.

The term "seat of the pants" in flying doesn't refer to physical input
data. It refers to flying naturally without having to think about
every step you are taking. I was never very good at it.

On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 21:15:04 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

The term "seat of the pants" in flying doesn't refer to physical input
data. It refers to flying naturally without having to think about
every step you are taking. I was never very good at it.

===

I understand your point but I always thought "seat of the pants"
flying referred mostly to banking the plane at the right angle for the
turn radius, i.e., banking it so that you don't slide in your seat one
way or the other.