I disagree..... assertiveness is most certainly a response to outside
stimuli. Initial actions cannot be undertaken without the premise of
interaction between at least 2 people.... at this point you have the
initiation and the response.

If you are subject to an assertive request... you must decide upon it's
validity, pertinence and reach a decision that you will either comply or
refuse. If you decide to comply.... the point of assertive behaviour is
moot. You have in effect agreed to be compliant. If you decide to refuse...
you have taken a stance that will require to be defended. To effect this
will necessitate an aggressive posture. The scale of aggression is directly
associated with the level of assertiveness contained by the request. Once
you challenge anyone.... you have initiated an aggressive posture.... no
matter if it was based on self assertion or dismissal due to mitigating
factors.

You are still insisting that aggressive behaviour is only identified through
violent behaviour... and that is simply incorrect. A person can be very
aggressive without being physically violent.

CM



"katysails" wrote in message
...
No..you're analogy is wrong....we're not talking about Reponses but
initial actions....responses are an entirely different matter...a person
can assertively request another to get them a cup of coffee...by doing so,
the other person, responding to the assertiveness, does not lose face,
does not take on the role of servitude, retains some aspect of equality or
equanimity....a person aggressively requesting another get them a cup of
coffee negates the importance of that other person, takes away their
respect, and lowers their position in regards to others...

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:1i3Zd.27317$i6.16694@edtnps90...
Not at all.... everyone has an opinion, that has nothing to do with
assertive behaviour.
The example of the dog is a poor one since you seem to think that refusal
to comply with a request is being assertive. Being assertive is refusal
to comply with direction or treatment that exceeds a boundary you have
established. Once that refusal is made... aggressive behaviour is
enacted, since the action of declining or taking a stand requires it.

Let's use another example. If someone where to direct you to fetch
coffee... even if done politely, compliance to that request is dependent
on several factors. Once you weigh the factors you make a decision to
comply or refuse.

Now, what I'm saying is that such direction would never be considered nor
even directed to an aggressive personality..... since assertiveness goes
hand in hand with aggressive behaviour the "direction" would be quickly
reconsidered and reduced to a "request". A person who is non-aggressive
or not assertive would be the primary candidate for direction due to
their perceived position in the pecking order. To elevate yourself in
the pecking order requires you take a stand... that action requires you
to be aggressive.

While you may be assertive in presenting your point of view in this
matter... you have as well been aggressively defending your
misconceptions.

CM


"katysails" wrote in message
...
To assert mean you have an opinion and are willing to stand by it...that
is not aggression....you really have been too far away from civilization
and for too long a time....your ideas have become warped and distorted
away from the common view....assertiveness is not
aggression...assertiveness is when the dog nudges you for a pat and
doesn't take No for an answer.but you can still walk
away...aggressiveness is when he finally grabs your hand with his teeth
and bites down to remind you that he is in control...and the only way
you can walk away is to fight back or allow him to win...



"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:1OYYd.49077$fc4.21489@edtnps89...
Absolutely inaccurate assessment on your part Kitty. You seem to assume
aggressiveness as truculent behaviour.... that is misleading. To
assert is to take a stance.... that alone requires you assume an
aggressive posture.

The very action of being assertive requires that you are capable of
delineating how you will be treated or engaged. You are making a demand
of others.... that requires an aggressive posture.... unless you are
making a plea... which isn't assertive.

CM



"katysails" wrote in message
...
Well, you're wrong again...I'm not interested in doing all the Google
searches for the studies, but they're there...assertiveness can be
taught and used effectively, without aggression....you probably just
don't recognize it because the testosterone stands in the way...

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:IyNYd.23951$ZO2.4359@edtnps84...
Assertive behaviour is motivated by aggressive stance. If you stand
your ground... you are asserting your place... the very act of that
is aggressive. The meek can never be taught assertiveness.... I
don't care how many classes you give them.... they will fold like
superman on laundry day in the face of someone with a true
assertive/aggressive personality.

CM

"katysails" wrote in message
...
You're wrong....there are people that specialize in training the
meek to be assertive...these people have not got an aggressive bone
in their bodies and get walked over....with assertiveness training,
they are able to start fending for themselves...has nothing to do
with aggression and everything to do with survival....

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:w6LYd.23554$ZO2.23116@edtnps84...
Again you fail to grasp the basic fact that without an aggressive
attitude... you cannot be assertive. Assertiveness is merely a
symptom of an aggressive nature, as is being competitive.
Aggression does not have to involve physical violence. I believe
you are unable to comprehend this because as a female you are
guided by emotion as opposed to logic.

CM

"katysails" wrote in message
...
Assertiveness works well in the competitive field of business
whereas aggressiveness will usually land you on the unemployment
lines...aggressive people generally rise fast in their professions
and then tank out early whereas the consistently assertive attain
their goals in a non-threatening manner and hold their positions
or continue to rise....

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:N_EYd.46434$fc4.26583@edtnps89...
I believe it is indeed that you do not comprehend.... or make
erroneous assumptions regarding male aggression. In the average
male... aggressiveness is controlled. To submit that a competitive
nature is not required in a modern society is illogical. Even the
few women in a position of power show an extremely heightened
sense of aggressiveness and a competitive nature. Enlightenment
has nothing to do with it.

CM

"katysails" wrote in message
...
It's not that we don't comprehend..it's that we reject that as
anything other than what it is....uncontrolled testosterone...it
worked for cavemen because that's the physical reality they
lived in but the idea of man (gender, not species) as
hunter/gatherer in an enlightened society is an anachronism...


"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:5huYd.20032$ZO2.7495@edtnps84...
NO! Kitty.... You are confusing aggressiveness and
assertiveness.... which is understandable. I will repeat myself
despite the fact I know you are not capable of understanding
the logic..... You cannot be assertive without being
aggressive.

Let's take the scenario you utilized.... you assume that
aggression requires physical intervention. It does not!
Aggression between males has a multi-tiered level.... none of
which can be comprehended by females. The level of aggressive
behaviour is dependant on the situation. This is comprehended
by even the youngest of our gender.

CM



CM

"katysails" wrote in message
...
An assertive person makes their point by showing you the hole
in the ground; an aggressive person puts you in the hole in
the ground.

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:gXrYd.19227$ZO2.4609@edtnps84...
You require aggressiveness to be assertive.... the very act
of asserting yourself, places others as either your equal or
your subordinate.... despite what they may have perceived.
This situation is not attained by passive compliance, nor
neutral indifference.

CM


"katysails" wrote in message
...
I am assertive....not aggressive....

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:hTpYd.20694$i6.18071@edtnps90...
Aggression need not be physical....

CM

"katysails" wrote in message
...
I am not a physically aggressive person....except for the
boots, chains, spurs, etc....but that's not the same
thing...

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in
message news:xghYd.40369$fc4.33395@edtnps89...
You may indeed suggest it...... but I'd sooner you take
your own advise.

CM

"katysails" wrote in message
Well, may I suggest you rise above your base animal
instinct and start using the tools that were given you
to negotiate and walk away from aggression?

You can disagree all you want to...you are wrong. Enjoy your wrongness.

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:Yj8Zd.56440$fc4.24526@edtnps89...
I disagree..... assertiveness is most certainly a response to outside
stimuli. Initial actions cannot be undertaken without the premise of
interaction between at least 2 people.... at this point you have the
initiation and the response.

If you are subject to an assertive request... you must decide upon it's
validity, pertinence and reach a decision that you will either comply or
refuse. If you decide to comply.... the point of assertive behaviour is
moot. You have in effect agreed to be compliant. If you decide to
refuse... you have taken a stance that will require to be defended. To
effect this will necessitate an aggressive posture. The scale of
aggression is directly associated with the level of assertiveness
contained by the request. Once you challenge anyone.... you have initiated
an aggressive posture.... no matter if it was based on self assertion or
dismissal due to mitigating factors.

You are still insisting that aggressive behaviour is only identified
through violent behaviour... and that is simply incorrect. A person can be
very aggressive without being physically violent.

CM



"katysails" wrote in message
...
No..you're analogy is wrong....we're not talking about Reponses but
initial actions....responses are an entirely different matter...a person
can assertively request another to get them a cup of coffee...by doing
so, the other person, responding to the assertiveness, does not lose
face, does not take on the role of servitude, retains some aspect of
equality or equanimity....a person aggressively requesting another get
them a cup of coffee negates the importance of that other person, takes
away their respect, and lowers their position in regards to others...

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:1i3Zd.27317$i6.16694@edtnps90...
Not at all.... everyone has an opinion, that has nothing to do with
assertive behaviour.
The example of the dog is a poor one since you seem to think that
refusal to comply with a request is being assertive. Being assertive is
refusal to comply with direction or treatment that exceeds a boundary
you have established. Once that refusal is made... aggressive behaviour
is enacted, since the action of declining or taking a stand requires it.

Let's use another example. If someone where to direct you to fetch
coffee... even if done politely, compliance to that request is
dependent on several factors. Once you weigh the factors you make a
decision to comply or refuse.

Now, what I'm saying is that such direction would never be considered
nor even directed to an aggressive personality..... since assertiveness
goes hand in hand with aggressive behaviour the "direction" would be
quickly reconsidered and reduced to a "request". A person who is
non-aggressive or not assertive would be the primary candidate for
direction due to their perceived position in the pecking order. To
elevate yourself in the pecking order requires you take a stand... that
action requires you to be aggressive.

While you may be assertive in presenting your point of view in this
matter... you have as well been aggressively defending your
misconceptions.

CM


"katysails" wrote in message
...
To assert mean you have an opinion and are willing to stand by
it...that is not aggression....you really have been too far away from
civilization and for too long a time....your ideas have become warped
and distorted away from the common view....assertiveness is not
aggression...assertiveness is when the dog nudges you for a pat and
doesn't take No for an answer.but you can still walk
away...aggressiveness is when he finally grabs your hand with his teeth
and bites down to remind you that he is in control...and the only way
you can walk away is to fight back or allow him to win...



"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:1OYYd.49077$fc4.21489@edtnps89...
Absolutely inaccurate assessment on your part Kitty. You seem to
assume aggressiveness as truculent behaviour.... that is misleading.
To assert is to take a stance.... that alone requires you assume an
aggressive posture.

The very action of being assertive requires that you are capable of
delineating how you will be treated or engaged. You are making a
demand of others.... that requires an aggressive posture.... unless
you are making a plea... which isn't assertive.

CM



"katysails" wrote in message
...
Well, you're wrong again...I'm not interested in doing all the Google
searches for the studies, but they're there...assertiveness can be
taught and used effectively, without aggression....you probably just
don't recognize it because the testosterone stands in the way...

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:IyNYd.23951$ZO2.4359@edtnps84...
Assertive behaviour is motivated by aggressive stance. If you stand
your ground... you are asserting your place... the very act of that
is aggressive. The meek can never be taught assertiveness.... I
don't care how many classes you give them.... they will fold like
superman on laundry day in the face of someone with a true
assertive/aggressive personality.

CM

"katysails" wrote in message
...
You're wrong....there are people that specialize in training the
meek to be assertive...these people have not got an aggressive bone
in their bodies and get walked over....with assertiveness training,
they are able to start fending for themselves...has nothing to do
with aggression and everything to do with survival....

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:w6LYd.23554$ZO2.23116@edtnps84...
Again you fail to grasp the basic fact that without an aggressive
attitude... you cannot be assertive. Assertiveness is merely a
symptom of an aggressive nature, as is being competitive.
Aggression does not have to involve physical violence. I believe
you are unable to comprehend this because as a female you are
guided by emotion as opposed to logic.

CM

"katysails" wrote in message
...
Assertiveness works well in the competitive field of business
whereas aggressiveness will usually land you on the unemployment
lines...aggressive people generally rise fast in their
professions and then tank out early whereas the consistently
assertive attain their goals in a non-threatening manner and hold
their positions or continue to rise....

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:N_EYd.46434$fc4.26583@edtnps89...
I believe it is indeed that you do not comprehend.... or make
erroneous assumptions regarding male aggression. In the average
male... aggressiveness is controlled. To submit that a
competitive nature is not required in a modern society is
illogical. Even the few women in a position of power show an
extremely heightened sense of aggressiveness and a competitive
nature. Enlightenment has nothing to do with it.

CM

"katysails" wrote in message
...
It's not that we don't comprehend..it's that we reject that as
anything other than what it is....uncontrolled
testosterone...it worked for cavemen because that's the
physical reality they lived in but the idea of man (gender, not
species) as hunter/gatherer in an enlightened society is an
anachronism...


"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:5huYd.20032$ZO2.7495@edtnps84...
NO! Kitty.... You are confusing aggressiveness and
assertiveness.... which is understandable. I will repeat
myself despite the fact I know you are not capable of
understanding the logic..... You cannot be assertive without
being aggressive.

Let's take the scenario you utilized.... you assume that
aggression requires physical intervention. It does not!
Aggression between males has a multi-tiered level.... none of
which can be comprehended by females. The level of aggressive
behaviour is dependant on the situation. This is comprehended
by even the youngest of our gender.

CM



CM

"katysails" wrote in message
...
An assertive person makes their point by showing you the hole
in the ground; an aggressive person puts you in the hole in
the ground.

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:gXrYd.19227$ZO2.4609@edtnps84...
You require aggressiveness to be assertive.... the very act
of asserting yourself, places others as either your equal or
your subordinate.... despite what they may have perceived.
This situation is not attained by passive compliance, nor
neutral indifference.

CM


"katysails" wrote in message
...
I am assertive....not aggressive....

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:hTpYd.20694$i6.18071@edtnps90...
Aggression need not be physical....

CM

"katysails" wrote in message
...
I am not a physically aggressive person....except for the
boots, chains, spurs, etc....but that's not the same
thing...

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in
message news:xghYd.40369$fc4.33395@edtnps89...
You may indeed suggest it...... but I'd sooner you take
your own advise.

CM

"katysails" wrote in
message
Well, may I suggest you rise above your base animal
instinct and start using the tools that were given you
to negotiate and walk away from aggression?

I'm not certain if you are being compliant or assertive with that statement!

It must be assertive since I sense a bit of aggression.... :-)

CM

"katysails" wrote in message
...
You can disagree all you want to...you are wrong. Enjoy your wrongness.

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:Yj8Zd.56440$fc4.24526@edtnps89...
I disagree..... assertiveness is most certainly a response to outside
stimuli. Initial actions cannot be undertaken without the premise of
interaction between at least 2 people.... at this point you have the
initiation and the response.

If you are subject to an assertive request... you must decide upon it's
validity, pertinence and reach a decision that you will either comply or
refuse. If you decide to comply.... the point of assertive behaviour is
moot. You have in effect agreed to be compliant. If you decide to
refuse... you have taken a stance that will require to be defended. To
effect this will necessitate an aggressive posture. The scale of
aggression is directly associated with the level of assertiveness
contained by the request. Once you challenge anyone.... you have
initiated an aggressive posture.... no matter if it was based on self
assertion or dismissal due to mitigating factors.

You are still insisting that aggressive behaviour is only identified
through violent behaviour... and that is simply incorrect. A person can
be very aggressive without being physically violent.

CM



"katysails" wrote in message
...
No..you're analogy is wrong....we're not talking about Reponses but
initial actions....responses are an entirely different matter...a person
can assertively request another to get them a cup of coffee...by doing
so, the other person, responding to the assertiveness, does not lose
face, does not take on the role of servitude, retains some aspect of
equality or equanimity....a person aggressively requesting another get
them a cup of coffee negates the importance of that other person, takes
away their respect, and lowers their position in regards to others...

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:1i3Zd.27317$i6.16694@edtnps90...
Not at all.... everyone has an opinion, that has nothing to do with
assertive behaviour.
The example of the dog is a poor one since you seem to think that
refusal to comply with a request is being assertive. Being assertive is
refusal to comply with direction or treatment that exceeds a boundary
you have established. Once that refusal is made... aggressive
behaviour is enacted, since the action of declining or taking a stand
requires it.

Let's use another example. If someone where to direct you to fetch
coffee... even if done politely, compliance to that request is
dependent on several factors. Once you weigh the factors you make a
decision to comply or refuse.

Now, what I'm saying is that such direction would never be considered
nor even directed to an aggressive personality..... since assertiveness
goes hand in hand with aggressive behaviour the "direction" would be
quickly reconsidered and reduced to a "request". A person who is
non-aggressive or not assertive would be the primary candidate for
direction due to their perceived position in the pecking order. To
elevate yourself in the pecking order requires you take a stand...
that action requires you to be aggressive.

While you may be assertive in presenting your point of view in this
matter... you have as well been aggressively defending your
misconceptions.

CM


"katysails" wrote in message
...
To assert mean you have an opinion and are willing to stand by
it...that is not aggression....you really have been too far away from
civilization and for too long a time....your ideas have become warped
and distorted away from the common view....assertiveness is not
aggression...assertiveness is when the dog nudges you for a pat and
doesn't take No for an answer.but you can still walk
away...aggressiveness is when he finally grabs your hand with his
teeth and bites down to remind you that he is in control...and the
only way you can walk away is to fight back or allow him to win...



"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:1OYYd.49077$fc4.21489@edtnps89...
Absolutely inaccurate assessment on your part Kitty. You seem to
assume aggressiveness as truculent behaviour.... that is misleading.
To assert is to take a stance.... that alone requires you assume an
aggressive posture.

The very action of being assertive requires that you are capable of
delineating how you will be treated or engaged. You are making a
demand of others.... that requires an aggressive posture.... unless
you are making a plea... which isn't assertive.

CM



"katysails" wrote in message
...
Well, you're wrong again...I'm not interested in doing all the
Google searches for the studies, but they're there...assertiveness
can be taught and used effectively, without aggression....you
probably just don't recognize it because the testosterone stands in
the way...

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:IyNYd.23951$ZO2.4359@edtnps84...
Assertive behaviour is motivated by aggressive stance. If you stand
your ground... you are asserting your place... the very act of that
is aggressive. The meek can never be taught assertiveness.... I
don't care how many classes you give them.... they will fold like
superman on laundry day in the face of someone with a true
assertive/aggressive personality.

CM

"katysails" wrote in message
...
You're wrong....there are people that specialize in training the
meek to be assertive...these people have not got an aggressive
bone in their bodies and get walked over....with assertiveness
training, they are able to start fending for themselves...has
nothing to do with aggression and everything to do with
survival....

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:w6LYd.23554$ZO2.23116@edtnps84...
Again you fail to grasp the basic fact that without an aggressive
attitude... you cannot be assertive. Assertiveness is merely a
symptom of an aggressive nature, as is being competitive.
Aggression does not have to involve physical violence. I believe
you are unable to comprehend this because as a female you are
guided by emotion as opposed to logic.

CM

"katysails" wrote in message
...
Assertiveness works well in the competitive field of business
whereas aggressiveness will usually land you on the unemployment
lines...aggressive people generally rise fast in their
professions and then tank out early whereas the consistently
assertive attain their goals in a non-threatening manner and
hold their positions or continue to rise....

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:N_EYd.46434$fc4.26583@edtnps89...
I believe it is indeed that you do not comprehend.... or make
erroneous assumptions regarding male aggression. In the average
male... aggressiveness is controlled. To submit that a
competitive nature is not required in a modern society is
illogical. Even the few women in a position of power show an
extremely heightened sense of aggressiveness and a competitive
nature. Enlightenment has nothing to do with it.

CM

"katysails" wrote in message
...
It's not that we don't comprehend..it's that we reject that as
anything other than what it is....uncontrolled
testosterone...it worked for cavemen because that's the
physical reality they lived in but the idea of man (gender,
not species) as hunter/gatherer in an enlightened society is
an anachronism...


"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:5huYd.20032$ZO2.7495@edtnps84...
NO! Kitty.... You are confusing aggressiveness and
assertiveness.... which is understandable. I will repeat
myself despite the fact I know you are not capable of
understanding the logic..... You cannot be assertive without
being aggressive.

Let's take the scenario you utilized.... you assume that
aggression requires physical intervention. It does not!
Aggression between males has a multi-tiered level.... none of
which can be comprehended by females. The level of aggressive
behaviour is dependant on the situation. This is comprehended
by even the youngest of our gender.

CM



CM

"katysails" wrote in message
...
An assertive person makes their point by showing you the
hole in the ground; an aggressive person puts you in the
hole in the ground.

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:gXrYd.19227$ZO2.4609@edtnps84...
You require aggressiveness to be assertive.... the very
act of asserting yourself, places others as either your
equal or your subordinate.... despite what they may have
perceived. This situation is not attained by passive
compliance, nor neutral indifference.

CM


"katysails" wrote in message
...
I am assertive....not aggressive....

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in
message news:hTpYd.20694$i6.18071@edtnps90...
Aggression need not be physical....

CM

"katysails" wrote in message
...
I am not a physically aggressive person....except for the
boots, chains, spurs, etc....but that's not the same
thing...

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in
message news:xghYd.40369$fc4.33395@edtnps89...
You may indeed suggest it...... but I'd sooner you
take your own advise.

CM

"katysails" wrote in
message
Well, may I suggest you rise above your base animal
instinct and start using the tools that were given you
to negotiate and walk away from aggression?

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message

I'm not certain if you are being compliant or assertive with that
statement!

It must be assertive since I sense a bit of aggression.... :-)

Aggressively assertive compliance.

Max

"Maxprop" wrote in message

Aggressively assertive compliance.

She's female... compliance comes naturally!
Assertive, Aggressive or otherwise... :-)

CM... I know... I know... I'll burn in the Lava Lakes!

snort...like heck compliance comes naturally....BTW, the snort was not
assertive but aggressive...and certainly noncompliant...



"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:bTpZd.31168$i6.26124@edtnps90...

"Maxprop" wrote in message

Aggressively assertive compliance.

She's female... compliance comes naturally!
Assertive, Aggressive or otherwise... :-)

CM... I know... I know... I'll burn in the Lava Lakes!

"katysails" wrote in message

snort...like heck compliance comes naturally....BTW, the snort was not
assertive but aggressive...and certainly noncompliant...

I'll bet it was derisive. And perhaps even a bit denigrating.

An aggressively denigratingly derisive, noncompliant, nonassertive snort.

Max

Katy! you're babbling.


"katysails" wrote in message
...
snort...like heck compliance comes naturally....BTW, the snort was
not
assertive but aggressive...and certainly noncompliant...



"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:bTpZd.31168$i6.26124@edtnps90...

"Maxprop" wrote in message

Aggressively assertive compliance.

She's female... compliance comes naturally!
Assertive, Aggressive or otherwise... :-)

CM... I know... I know... I'll burn in the Lava Lakes!

never....assertive noncompliance...

"Maxprop" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message

I'm not certain if you are being compliant or assertive with that
statement!

It must be assertive since I sense a bit of aggression.... :-)

Aggressively assertive compliance.

Max

There is no aggression, and there is no compliance...but there is
assertiveness....

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:WrfZd.56939$fc4.56085@edtnps89...
I'm not certain if you are being compliant or assertive with that
statement!

It must be assertive since I sense a bit of aggression.... :-)

CM

"katysails" wrote in message
...
You can disagree all you want to...you are wrong. Enjoy your wrongness.

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:Yj8Zd.56440$fc4.24526@edtnps89...
I disagree..... assertiveness is most certainly a response to outside
stimuli. Initial actions cannot be undertaken without the premise of
interaction between at least 2 people.... at this point you have the
initiation and the response.

If you are subject to an assertive request... you must decide upon it's
validity, pertinence and reach a decision that you will either comply or
refuse. If you decide to comply.... the point of assertive behaviour is
moot. You have in effect agreed to be compliant. If you decide to
refuse... you have taken a stance that will require to be defended. To
effect this will necessitate an aggressive posture. The scale of
aggression is directly associated with the level of assertiveness
contained by the request. Once you challenge anyone.... you have
initiated an aggressive posture.... no matter if it was based on self
assertion or dismissal due to mitigating factors.

You are still insisting that aggressive behaviour is only identified
through violent behaviour... and that is simply incorrect. A person can
be very aggressive without being physically violent.

CM



"katysails" wrote in message
...
No..you're analogy is wrong....we're not talking about Reponses but
initial actions....responses are an entirely different matter...a
person can assertively request another to get them a cup of coffee...by
doing so, the other person, responding to the assertiveness, does not
lose face, does not take on the role of servitude, retains some aspect
of equality or equanimity....a person aggressively requesting another
get them a cup of coffee negates the importance of that other person,
takes away their respect, and lowers their position in regards to
others...

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:1i3Zd.27317$i6.16694@edtnps90...
Not at all.... everyone has an opinion, that has nothing to do with
assertive behaviour.
The example of the dog is a poor one since you seem to think that
refusal to comply with a request is being assertive. Being assertive
is refusal to comply with direction or treatment that exceeds a
boundary you have established. Once that refusal is made...
aggressive behaviour is enacted, since the action of declining or
taking a stand requires it.

Let's use another example. If someone where to direct you to fetch
coffee... even if done politely, compliance to that request is
dependent on several factors. Once you weigh the factors you make a
decision to comply or refuse.

Now, what I'm saying is that such direction would never be considered
nor even directed to an aggressive personality..... since
assertiveness goes hand in hand with aggressive behaviour the
"direction" would be quickly reconsidered and reduced to a "request".
A person who is non-aggressive or not assertive would be the primary
candidate for direction due to their perceived position in the pecking
order. To elevate yourself in the pecking order requires you take a
stand... that action requires you to be aggressive.

While you may be assertive in presenting your point of view in this
matter... you have as well been aggressively defending your
misconceptions.

CM


"katysails" wrote in message
...
To assert mean you have an opinion and are willing to stand by
it...that is not aggression....you really have been too far away from
civilization and for too long a time....your ideas have become warped
and distorted away from the common view....assertiveness is not
aggression...assertiveness is when the dog nudges you for a pat and
doesn't take No for an answer.but you can still walk
away...aggressiveness is when he finally grabs your hand with his
teeth and bites down to remind you that he is in control...and the
only way you can walk away is to fight back or allow him to win...



"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:1OYYd.49077$fc4.21489@edtnps89...
Absolutely inaccurate assessment on your part Kitty. You seem to
assume aggressiveness as truculent behaviour.... that is
misleading. To assert is to take a stance.... that alone requires
you assume an aggressive posture.

The very action of being assertive requires that you are capable of
delineating how you will be treated or engaged. You are making a
demand of others.... that requires an aggressive posture.... unless
you are making a plea... which isn't assertive.

CM



"katysails" wrote in message
...
Well, you're wrong again...I'm not interested in doing all the
Google searches for the studies, but they're there...assertiveness
can be taught and used effectively, without aggression....you
probably just don't recognize it because the testosterone stands in
the way...

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:IyNYd.23951$ZO2.4359@edtnps84...
Assertive behaviour is motivated by aggressive stance. If you
stand your ground... you are asserting your place... the very act
of that is aggressive. The meek can never be taught
assertiveness.... I don't care how many classes you give them....
they will fold like superman on laundry day in the face of someone
with a true assertive/aggressive personality.

CM

"katysails" wrote in message
...
You're wrong....there are people that specialize in training the
meek to be assertive...these people have not got an aggressive
bone in their bodies and get walked over....with assertiveness
training, they are able to start fending for themselves...has
nothing to do with aggression and everything to do with
survival....

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:w6LYd.23554$ZO2.23116@edtnps84...
Again you fail to grasp the basic fact that without an
aggressive attitude... you cannot be assertive. Assertiveness is
merely a symptom of an aggressive nature, as is being
competitive. Aggression does not have to involve physical
violence. I believe you are unable to comprehend this because as
a female you are guided by emotion as opposed to logic.

CM

"katysails" wrote in message
...
Assertiveness works well in the competitive field of business
whereas aggressiveness will usually land you on the
unemployment lines...aggressive people generally rise fast in
their professions and then tank out early whereas the
consistently assertive attain their goals in a non-threatening
manner and hold their positions or continue to rise....

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:N_EYd.46434$fc4.26583@edtnps89...
I believe it is indeed that you do not comprehend.... or make
erroneous assumptions regarding male aggression. In the average
male... aggressiveness is controlled. To submit that a
competitive nature is not required in a modern society is
illogical. Even the few women in a position of power show an
extremely heightened sense of aggressiveness and a competitive
nature. Enlightenment has nothing to do with it.

CM

"katysails" wrote in message
...
It's not that we don't comprehend..it's that we reject that
as anything other than what it is....uncontrolled
testosterone...it worked for cavemen because that's the
physical reality they lived in but the idea of man (gender,
not species) as hunter/gatherer in an enlightened society is
an anachronism...


"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:5huYd.20032$ZO2.7495@edtnps84...
NO! Kitty.... You are confusing aggressiveness and
assertiveness.... which is understandable. I will repeat
myself despite the fact I know you are not capable of
understanding the logic..... You cannot be assertive without
being aggressive.

Let's take the scenario you utilized.... you assume that
aggression requires physical intervention. It does not!
Aggression between males has a multi-tiered level.... none
of which can be comprehended by females. The level of
aggressive behaviour is dependant on the situation. This is
comprehended by even the youngest of our gender.

CM



CM

"katysails" wrote in message
...
An assertive person makes their point by showing you the
hole in the ground; an aggressive person puts you in the
hole in the ground.

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:gXrYd.19227$ZO2.4609@edtnps84...
You require aggressiveness to be assertive.... the very
act of asserting yourself, places others as either your
equal or your subordinate.... despite what they may have
perceived. This situation is not attained by passive
compliance, nor neutral indifference.

CM


"katysails" wrote in message
...
I am assertive....not aggressive....

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in
message news:hTpYd.20694$i6.18071@edtnps90...
Aggression need not be physical....

CM

"katysails" wrote in
message
...
I am not a physically aggressive person....except for
the boots, chains, spurs, etc....but that's not the same
thing...

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in
message news:xghYd.40369$fc4.33395@edtnps89...
You may indeed suggest it...... but I'd sooner you
take your own advise.

CM

"katysails" wrote in
message
Well, may I suggest you rise above your base animal
instinct and start using the tools that were given
you to negotiate and walk away from aggression?