"Scout" wrote in message
...
CM,
.. Perhaps things are
different in Canada, or in Philadelphia.

Or in the real world.

L

--
Enjoy my new sailing web site
http://sail247.com
"Scout" wrote in message
...
CM,
I don't know what your experience is with unions. But I do know what I've
been through, and my father, and his father. Your points are made
eloquently, but do not mesh with what I know to be truth. Perhaps things
are different in Canada, or in Philadelphia.
Scout

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:YpFYd.46457$fc4.9578@edtnps89...

"Scout" wrote in message

Very good. And because they had that day, hired goons no longer show up
and split your head open with a baseball bat for wanting a fair share of
the profits of a company's efforts. Had you seen that, you might be glad
to have a brother close by. These heavy handed "negotiations" made bar
room fights look like a day at the beach.

Not really a viable example Scout... since there are many things in
society that are no longer condoned and that had nothing to do with union
activity.


It's all very well and good to espouse a philosophy that worked in the
day of the agrarian citizen, but the sheer number of people in the
modern workforce demands different rules. Hobbes would have agreed with
me. People are inherently greedy; generally speaking they are pricks.
ASA provides all the evidence one needs to believe that is true.
Government and big business are one and the same, and together they are
still the Leviathan. Mutually beneficial contracts are needed today more
than ever. God bless a nation where a guy like Scotty can make the offer
of "take it or shove it." He can do so only because others have paid
the cost, and continue to pay the price, for that privilege.

Our ancestors have collectively paid the price to have us achieve our
current freedoms and society... this in no way suggests that methods
acceptable even 50 years ago are legitimate today. Your statement on the
general tendencies of people seem to illustrate a rather negative view of
society in general. I do not find the people posting to ASA as pricks at
all.... [Except for Gaynzy who is an annoying little homo].... their
posturing and statements are a fine tool with which to hone my abilities
to defend a position. Considering the anonymity provided by this
medium... it's a wonder the verbal engagements are not far worse. In
effect we self police.

In regards to Scotty's ability to establish his rate of pay... this has
been available for as long as we have existed and is not the result of
union activity. If you provide a service or commodity that is superior to
others in the same field.... you have the right to charge what the
consumer will bear.

CM

"Lonny Bruce" wrote in message
news:r2gZd.2223$uw6.564@trnddc06...
"Scout" wrote in message
...
CM,
. Perhaps things are
different in Canada, or in Philadelphia.

Or in the real world.

Lonny..... try this link on the Giant Mine Strike in Yellowknife...

http://tinylink.com/?aVHXwkC6Ed

I lived through it and had good friends on both sides. It destroyed
life-long friendships and families to nobody's benefit. The fault lay
squarely in the laps of both Employer and Union. This is why I am leaning
towards Legal Firms to engage in Employment Contracts.


CM

Scout wrote:
Yep, but notice that I carefully couched my reference to "fools in debt."
There are always legitimate cases where honest people have fallen on hard
times and it is in the best interest of the rest of us to help them regain
their balance.

There is that, but hey, you can't expect a society led by "compassionate
conservatism" to give even so much as a little rat's ass.

There are others, of course, like the big casino mahof, who hired my company
to do his mechanical construction and then claimed (planned) bankruptcy. He
offered us 10 cents on the dollar. As you can see, he is no where near
bankrupt and planned to let the contractors pay for his casino. We said no,
beat him in court, and got all of our money.

I can think of dumber things that trying to cheat contruction workers.

But you're right, it's a business plan for some. Corporate deadbeats...
includes a lot of insurance companies...

DSK

I agree, but it looks like you're making Davey angry.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Scout" wrote in message
...
The trick here is to not get angry just because others have opinions
differing from one's own.
Scout

"JG" wrote in message
...
Scout, you're talking about Dave? Mr. Poodle? He doesn't engage in
"discussions" unless he's absolutely, 100 percent right, in his own mind.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Scout" wrote in message
...
It's called discussion. Many here engage in it without posting
hyperlinks to speak for them.
Scout


"Dave" wrote
Indeed, why post your little diatribe in the first place?

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message

I'm not certain if you are being compliant or assertive with that
statement!

It must be assertive since I sense a bit of aggression.... :-)

Aggressively assertive compliance.

Max

"Maxprop" wrote in message

Aggressively assertive compliance.

She's female... compliance comes naturally!
Assertive, Aggressive or otherwise... :-)

CM... I know... I know... I'll burn in the Lava Lakes!

I have memorized it as well; so did Ronald Reagan.
Scout

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Scout wrote:
The land of Robert Service, my favorite poet!
Scout


Some years back I was riding in a car with my mother and for some reason
starting exchanging verses of "The Cremation of Sam McGee." It turned out
we had both memorized it in high school!

There are strange things done in the midnight sun
By the men who moil for gold;
The Arctic trails have their secret tales
That would make your blood run cold;
The Northern Lights have seen queer sights,
But the queerest they ever did see
Was that night on the marge of Lake Lebarge
I cremated Sam McGee.

This link has the complete poem, worth reading out loud, preferably in
front of a fireplace. I never realized that Lake Lebarge, the Alice May,
and Sam were all real!

http://www.wordfocus.com/wordactcremation.html

There is no aggression, and there is no compliance...but there is
assertiveness....

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:WrfZd.56939$fc4.56085@edtnps89...
I'm not certain if you are being compliant or assertive with that
statement!

It must be assertive since I sense a bit of aggression.... :-)

CM

"katysails" wrote in message
...
You can disagree all you want to...you are wrong. Enjoy your wrongness.

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:Yj8Zd.56440$fc4.24526@edtnps89...
I disagree..... assertiveness is most certainly a response to outside
stimuli. Initial actions cannot be undertaken without the premise of
interaction between at least 2 people.... at this point you have the
initiation and the response.

If you are subject to an assertive request... you must decide upon it's
validity, pertinence and reach a decision that you will either comply or
refuse. If you decide to comply.... the point of assertive behaviour is
moot. You have in effect agreed to be compliant. If you decide to
refuse... you have taken a stance that will require to be defended. To
effect this will necessitate an aggressive posture. The scale of
aggression is directly associated with the level of assertiveness
contained by the request. Once you challenge anyone.... you have
initiated an aggressive posture.... no matter if it was based on self
assertion or dismissal due to mitigating factors.

You are still insisting that aggressive behaviour is only identified
through violent behaviour... and that is simply incorrect. A person can
be very aggressive without being physically violent.

CM



"katysails" wrote in message
...
No..you're analogy is wrong....we're not talking about Reponses but
initial actions....responses are an entirely different matter...a
person can assertively request another to get them a cup of coffee...by
doing so, the other person, responding to the assertiveness, does not
lose face, does not take on the role of servitude, retains some aspect
of equality or equanimity....a person aggressively requesting another
get them a cup of coffee negates the importance of that other person,
takes away their respect, and lowers their position in regards to
others...

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:1i3Zd.27317$i6.16694@edtnps90...
Not at all.... everyone has an opinion, that has nothing to do with
assertive behaviour.
The example of the dog is a poor one since you seem to think that
refusal to comply with a request is being assertive. Being assertive
is refusal to comply with direction or treatment that exceeds a
boundary you have established. Once that refusal is made...
aggressive behaviour is enacted, since the action of declining or
taking a stand requires it.

Let's use another example. If someone where to direct you to fetch
coffee... even if done politely, compliance to that request is
dependent on several factors. Once you weigh the factors you make a
decision to comply or refuse.

Now, what I'm saying is that such direction would never be considered
nor even directed to an aggressive personality..... since
assertiveness goes hand in hand with aggressive behaviour the
"direction" would be quickly reconsidered and reduced to a "request".
A person who is non-aggressive or not assertive would be the primary
candidate for direction due to their perceived position in the pecking
order. To elevate yourself in the pecking order requires you take a
stand... that action requires you to be aggressive.

While you may be assertive in presenting your point of view in this
matter... you have as well been aggressively defending your
misconceptions.

CM


"katysails" wrote in message
...
To assert mean you have an opinion and are willing to stand by
it...that is not aggression....you really have been too far away from
civilization and for too long a time....your ideas have become warped
and distorted away from the common view....assertiveness is not
aggression...assertiveness is when the dog nudges you for a pat and
doesn't take No for an answer.but you can still walk
away...aggressiveness is when he finally grabs your hand with his
teeth and bites down to remind you that he is in control...and the
only way you can walk away is to fight back or allow him to win...



"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:1OYYd.49077$fc4.21489@edtnps89...
Absolutely inaccurate assessment on your part Kitty. You seem to
assume aggressiveness as truculent behaviour.... that is
misleading. To assert is to take a stance.... that alone requires
you assume an aggressive posture.

The very action of being assertive requires that you are capable of
delineating how you will be treated or engaged. You are making a
demand of others.... that requires an aggressive posture.... unless
you are making a plea... which isn't assertive.

CM



"katysails" wrote in message
...
Well, you're wrong again...I'm not interested in doing all the
Google searches for the studies, but they're there...assertiveness
can be taught and used effectively, without aggression....you
probably just don't recognize it because the testosterone stands in
the way...

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:IyNYd.23951$ZO2.4359@edtnps84...
Assertive behaviour is motivated by aggressive stance. If you
stand your ground... you are asserting your place... the very act
of that is aggressive. The meek can never be taught
assertiveness.... I don't care how many classes you give them....
they will fold like superman on laundry day in the face of someone
with a true assertive/aggressive personality.

CM

"katysails" wrote in message
...
You're wrong....there are people that specialize in training the
meek to be assertive...these people have not got an aggressive
bone in their bodies and get walked over....with assertiveness
training, they are able to start fending for themselves...has
nothing to do with aggression and everything to do with
survival....

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:w6LYd.23554$ZO2.23116@edtnps84...
Again you fail to grasp the basic fact that without an
aggressive attitude... you cannot be assertive. Assertiveness is
merely a symptom of an aggressive nature, as is being
competitive. Aggression does not have to involve physical
violence. I believe you are unable to comprehend this because as
a female you are guided by emotion as opposed to logic.

CM

"katysails" wrote in message
...
Assertiveness works well in the competitive field of business
whereas aggressiveness will usually land you on the
unemployment lines...aggressive people generally rise fast in
their professions and then tank out early whereas the
consistently assertive attain their goals in a non-threatening
manner and hold their positions or continue to rise....

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:N_EYd.46434$fc4.26583@edtnps89...
I believe it is indeed that you do not comprehend.... or make
erroneous assumptions regarding male aggression. In the average
male... aggressiveness is controlled. To submit that a
competitive nature is not required in a modern society is
illogical. Even the few women in a position of power show an
extremely heightened sense of aggressiveness and a competitive
nature. Enlightenment has nothing to do with it.

CM

"katysails" wrote in message
...
It's not that we don't comprehend..it's that we reject that
as anything other than what it is....uncontrolled
testosterone...it worked for cavemen because that's the
physical reality they lived in but the idea of man (gender,
not species) as hunter/gatherer in an enlightened society is
an anachronism...


"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:5huYd.20032$ZO2.7495@edtnps84...
NO! Kitty.... You are confusing aggressiveness and
assertiveness.... which is understandable. I will repeat
myself despite the fact I know you are not capable of
understanding the logic..... You cannot be assertive without
being aggressive.

Let's take the scenario you utilized.... you assume that
aggression requires physical intervention. It does not!
Aggression between males has a multi-tiered level.... none
of which can be comprehended by females. The level of
aggressive behaviour is dependant on the situation. This is
comprehended by even the youngest of our gender.

CM



CM

"katysails" wrote in message
...
An assertive person makes their point by showing you the
hole in the ground; an aggressive person puts you in the
hole in the ground.

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:gXrYd.19227$ZO2.4609@edtnps84...
You require aggressiveness to be assertive.... the very
act of asserting yourself, places others as either your
equal or your subordinate.... despite what they may have
perceived. This situation is not attained by passive
compliance, nor neutral indifference.

CM


"katysails" wrote in message
...
I am assertive....not aggressive....

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in
message news:hTpYd.20694$i6.18071@edtnps90...
Aggression need not be physical....

CM

"katysails" wrote in
message
...
I am not a physically aggressive person....except for
the boots, chains, spurs, etc....but that's not the same
thing...

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in
message news:xghYd.40369$fc4.33395@edtnps89...
You may indeed suggest it...... but I'd sooner you
take your own advise.

CM

"katysails" wrote in
message
Well, may I suggest you rise above your base animal
instinct and start using the tools that were given
you to negotiate and walk away from aggression?

never....assertive noncompliance...

"Maxprop" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message

I'm not certain if you are being compliant or assertive with that
statement!

It must be assertive since I sense a bit of aggression.... :-)

Aggressively assertive compliance.

Max

snort...like heck compliance comes naturally....BTW, the snort was not
assertive but aggressive...and certainly noncompliant...



"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:bTpZd.31168$i6.26124@edtnps90...

"Maxprop" wrote in message

Aggressively assertive compliance.

She's female... compliance comes naturally!
Assertive, Aggressive or otherwise... :-)

CM... I know... I know... I'll burn in the Lava Lakes!