I disagree..... assertiveness is most certainly a response to outside
stimuli. Initial actions cannot be undertaken without the premise of
interaction between at least 2 people.... at this point you have the
initiation and the response.

If you are subject to an assertive request... you must decide upon it's
validity, pertinence and reach a decision that you will either comply or
refuse. If you decide to comply.... the point of assertive behaviour is
moot. You have in effect agreed to be compliant. If you decide to refuse...
you have taken a stance that will require to be defended. To effect this
will necessitate an aggressive posture. The scale of aggression is directly
associated with the level of assertiveness contained by the request. Once
you challenge anyone.... you have initiated an aggressive posture.... no
matter if it was based on self assertion or dismissal due to mitigating
factors.

You are still insisting that aggressive behaviour is only identified through
violent behaviour... and that is simply incorrect. A person can be very
aggressive without being physically violent.

CM



"katysails" wrote in message
...
No..you're analogy is wrong....we're not talking about Reponses but
initial actions....responses are an entirely different matter...a person
can assertively request another to get them a cup of coffee...by doing so,
the other person, responding to the assertiveness, does not lose face,
does not take on the role of servitude, retains some aspect of equality or
equanimity....a person aggressively requesting another get them a cup of
coffee negates the importance of that other person, takes away their
respect, and lowers their position in regards to others...

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:1i3Zd.27317$i6.16694@edtnps90...
Not at all.... everyone has an opinion, that has nothing to do with
assertive behaviour.
The example of the dog is a poor one since you seem to think that refusal
to comply with a request is being assertive. Being assertive is refusal
to comply with direction or treatment that exceeds a boundary you have
established. Once that refusal is made... aggressive behaviour is
enacted, since the action of declining or taking a stand requires it.

Let's use another example. If someone where to direct you to fetch
coffee... even if done politely, compliance to that request is dependent
on several factors. Once you weigh the factors you make a decision to
comply or refuse.

Now, what I'm saying is that such direction would never be considered nor
even directed to an aggressive personality..... since assertiveness goes
hand in hand with aggressive behaviour the "direction" would be quickly
reconsidered and reduced to a "request". A person who is non-aggressive
or not assertive would be the primary candidate for direction due to
their perceived position in the pecking order. To elevate yourself in
the pecking order requires you take a stand... that action requires you
to be aggressive.

While you may be assertive in presenting your point of view in this
matter... you have as well been aggressively defending your
misconceptions.

CM


"katysails" wrote in message
...
To assert mean you have an opinion and are willing to stand by it...that
is not aggression....you really have been too far away from civilization
and for too long a time....your ideas have become warped and distorted
away from the common view....assertiveness is not
aggression...assertiveness is when the dog nudges you for a pat and
doesn't take No for an answer.but you can still walk
away...aggressiveness is when he finally grabs your hand with his teeth
and bites down to remind you that he is in control...and the only way
you can walk away is to fight back or allow him to win...



"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:1OYYd.49077$fc4.21489@edtnps89...
Absolutely inaccurate assessment on your part Kitty. You seem to assume
aggressiveness as truculent behaviour.... that is misleading. To
assert is to take a stance.... that alone requires you assume an
aggressive posture.

The very action of being assertive requires that you are capable of
delineating how you will be treated or engaged. You are making a demand
of others.... that requires an aggressive posture.... unless you are
making a plea... which isn't assertive.

CM



"katysails" wrote in message
...
Well, you're wrong again...I'm not interested in doing all the Google
searches for the studies, but they're there...assertiveness can be
taught and used effectively, without aggression....you probably just
don't recognize it because the testosterone stands in the way...

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:IyNYd.23951$ZO2.4359@edtnps84...
Assertive behaviour is motivated by aggressive stance. If you stand
your ground... you are asserting your place... the very act of that
is aggressive. The meek can never be taught assertiveness.... I
don't care how many classes you give them.... they will fold like
superman on laundry day in the face of someone with a true
assertive/aggressive personality.

CM

"katysails" wrote in message
...
You're wrong....there are people that specialize in training the
meek to be assertive...these people have not got an aggressive bone
in their bodies and get walked over....with assertiveness training,
they are able to start fending for themselves...has nothing to do
with aggression and everything to do with survival....

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:w6LYd.23554$ZO2.23116@edtnps84...
Again you fail to grasp the basic fact that without an aggressive
attitude... you cannot be assertive. Assertiveness is merely a
symptom of an aggressive nature, as is being competitive.
Aggression does not have to involve physical violence. I believe
you are unable to comprehend this because as a female you are
guided by emotion as opposed to logic.

CM

"katysails" wrote in message
...
Assertiveness works well in the competitive field of business
whereas aggressiveness will usually land you on the unemployment
lines...aggressive people generally rise fast in their professions
and then tank out early whereas the consistently assertive attain
their goals in a non-threatening manner and hold their positions
or continue to rise....

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:N_EYd.46434$fc4.26583@edtnps89...
I believe it is indeed that you do not comprehend.... or make
erroneous assumptions regarding male aggression. In the average
male... aggressiveness is controlled. To submit that a competitive
nature is not required in a modern society is illogical. Even the
few women in a position of power show an extremely heightened
sense of aggressiveness and a competitive nature. Enlightenment
has nothing to do with it.

CM

"katysails" wrote in message
...
It's not that we don't comprehend..it's that we reject that as
anything other than what it is....uncontrolled testosterone...it
worked for cavemen because that's the physical reality they
lived in but the idea of man (gender, not species) as
hunter/gatherer in an enlightened society is an anachronism...


"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:5huYd.20032$ZO2.7495@edtnps84...
NO! Kitty.... You are confusing aggressiveness and
assertiveness.... which is understandable. I will repeat myself
despite the fact I know you are not capable of understanding
the logic..... You cannot be assertive without being
aggressive.

Let's take the scenario you utilized.... you assume that
aggression requires physical intervention. It does not!
Aggression between males has a multi-tiered level.... none of
which can be comprehended by females. The level of aggressive
behaviour is dependant on the situation. This is comprehended
by even the youngest of our gender.

CM



CM

"katysails" wrote in message
...
An assertive person makes their point by showing you the hole
in the ground; an aggressive person puts you in the hole in
the ground.

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:gXrYd.19227$ZO2.4609@edtnps84...
You require aggressiveness to be assertive.... the very act
of asserting yourself, places others as either your equal or
your subordinate.... despite what they may have perceived.
This situation is not attained by passive compliance, nor
neutral indifference.

CM


"katysails" wrote in message
...
I am assertive....not aggressive....

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:hTpYd.20694$i6.18071@edtnps90...
Aggression need not be physical....

CM

"katysails" wrote in message
...
I am not a physically aggressive person....except for the
boots, chains, spurs, etc....but that's not the same
thing...

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in
message news:xghYd.40369$fc4.33395@edtnps89...
You may indeed suggest it...... but I'd sooner you take
your own advise.

CM

"katysails" wrote in message
Well, may I suggest you rise above your base animal
instinct and start using the tools that were given you
to negotiate and walk away from aggression?