I appreciate your explaining these things Dave, but it seems
to me that you're not really 100% on the good guys side here

Dave wrote:
Muddled thinking, Doug. The broker isn't selling the boat. The owner of the
boat is. The contract is with the boat owner, not the broker.

But if the broker signs the contract, accepts an escrow
payment under terms of that contract, and expects to perform
his professional obligation in execution of that contract
and accept payment for same, then he *is* a party to that
contract.


... If the
seller doesn't deliver it isn't the broker who has broken the contract. It's
the owner of the boat.

Agreed, sort of... and that's why the disclaimer. The broker
could unknowingly fail to deliver all goods (and or
services) and still be acting in good faith. OTOH he should
expect to catch some flack.

DSK

Fraud is illegal in all 50 states. So is breaking a contract.


Dave wrote:
When most people say "illegal" they mean criminal. Although fraud can be
criminal in some circumstances, the kind you're talking about here is a
tort, not a crime.

Doesn't it depend on the amount of money involved?


... The victim of a tort is entitled to damages--money. If
the tort is intentional (as fraud is) he may be entitled to punitive
damages--i.e. more than his actual loss. That's what makes glad the hearts
of trial lawyer.

Similarly, breach of contract is not a crime. The party not guilty of the
breach is entitled to money. Generally, though, he's entitled to money from
the other party to the contract--generally not the broker.

If the broker is acting in fiduciary interest of the seller,
then he has definitely broken a contract IMHO... but then
I'm not a lawyer.

As I understand it, another remedy that doesn't necessarily
involve the courts is for the seller to take the boat back
and the buyer to get all his money back. I have seen this
happen, sometimes the brokers try to keep the deposit and
sometimes they hand it all back.

DSK

I do not have an axe to grind with Brokers. It is just that for a 10%
commission I tough I was going to get some legal protection and assurance
that a sailboat is in good sailing condition and fit to be purchased at the
asking/neg. price.
I was told point blank by a broker that it was not worth it to list a
$20.000. sailboat because his commission would only be $2.000. The
supervision a broker provides is not legally binding. This means that if
something turns sours the broker is not legally accountable. Then what
legal value has the broker's certification? If a surgeon or family
physician make a mistake he/she can be sued for malpractice. An architect
or engineer and other professions are hold responsible for their actions and
recommended calculations and designs.

"Scotty" wrote in message
. ..

"DSK" wrote in message
. ..
"Capt" Rob wrote:


7) Better pricing in some situations

So, worse pricing in other situations?


SBV

I am seriously in the market for a replacement sailboat.
I was offer a sea trial several time. Each time, before the trial the
broker insisted on having a deposit to show my good intend.
I soon learned that the Sea Trial approach was a broker's tactic to secure a
deposit.
Once the deposit is secured by the broker the negotiation wheel starts.
You then get involved in surveying cost for the hull and the engine. Then
if you are not happy about the boat you may ask for you deposit and you
write off the surveying cost.
In some places the broker may retain administration cost out of your
deposit? I do not have any statistic on how fast you can get your deposit
back?

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
ups.com...


other brokers charge for this?



Have you ever shopped for a boat. There are many small brokers that
don't offer a sea trial at all.



Robert
35s5
NY

wrote:
I am seriously in the market for a replacement sailboat.
I was offer a sea trial several time. Each time, before the trial the
broker insisted on having a deposit to show my good intend.

Sure, you can't expect a broker to take you for a free boat
ride just because he's a nice guy and you claim you might
like to buy one. Look at it from his point of view, just a
little.


I soon learned that the Sea Trial approach was a broker's tactic to secure a
deposit.
Once the deposit is secured by the broker the negotiation wheel starts.

Actually, you should not put down a deposit unless you've
already negotiated the majority of the deal... in all the
cases where I've bought boats, I had an offer embodied in a
contract before I put down a deposit.


You then get involved in surveying cost for the hull and the engine. Then
if you are not happy about the boat you may ask for you deposit and you
write off the surveying cost.

Yep. That's the way the game is played. The best way is to
just be a tire-kicker until you have zeroed in on what you
are pretty sure is the right boat for you. There is no rose
garden of boats to try & reject for free until you find one
you can live with. It's kind of like getting engaged to
marry a girl.


In some places the broker may retain administration cost out of your
deposit?

I've heard of that but not seen it done. I have seen a few
brokers claim bad faith by the buyer and keep the deposit,
and in some cases they were justified.


I do not have any statistic on how fast you can get your deposit
back?


It's supposed to be held in escrow in a non-interest-bearing
account, although I don't think that's a legal requirement.
All the brokers I ever dealt with kept the deposit check
uncashed in their safe deposit box, and simply handed it
back if the deal fell through.

It can certainly be discouraging dealing with brokers, and I
wouldn't blame you for avoiding them. However not all
brokers are crooks. The best way to shop is to have the
knowledge & experience to get down & dirty choosing &
inspecting a boat for yourself. There are a number of books
that can be a big help but experience is the best teacher.
There's even some good advice on teh internet... sometimes

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Agreed, sort of... and that's why the disclaimer. The broker
could unknowingly fail to deliver all goods (and or
services) and still be acting in good faith.

Charlie Morgan wrote:
Brokers frequently market boats of which they have ZERO first hand knowlege.


What part of "unknowingly" did you not understand?

DSK

Charlie Morgan wrote:
What part of "broker" is difficult for you?


The part where a person with no license, no credentials, and
no knowledge claims to be a broker, a surveyor, and a "Captain."

DSK

Sure, you can't expect a broker to take you for a free boat
ride just because he's a nice guy and you claim you might
like to buy one. Look at it from his point of view, just a
little.
I gave up the Sea trial proposal. This on the ground that the trials could
be used as an intimidation tactic to ham strung you into an unwanted
situation or to reflect a freeloader's picture. I have learned that the best
way to find out about a boat handling characteristics is to ask other non
selling senior sailors at boat clubs. Bearing in mind that some are racers,
cruisers and passage makers.

As an example in my area the Volvo diesel engine are not very popular. Its
not that they are deems to be no good its because we cannot get parts and if
we do we have to pay an arm and a leg for them.


"DSK" wrote in message
...
wrote:
I am seriously in the market for a replacement sailboat.
I was offer a sea trial several time. Each time, before the trial the
broker insisted on having a deposit to show my good intend.

Sure, you can't expect a broker to take you for a free boat ride just
because he's a nice guy and you claim you might like to buy one. Look at
it from his point of view, just a little.


I soon learned that the Sea Trial approach was a broker's tactic to
secure a deposit.
Once the deposit is secured by the broker the negotiation wheel starts.

Actually, you should not put down a deposit unless you've already
negotiated the majority of the deal... in all the cases where I've bought
boats, I had an offer embodied in a contract before I put down a deposit.


You then get involved in surveying cost for the hull and the engine.
Then if you are not happy about the boat you may ask for you deposit and
you write off the surveying cost.

Yep. That's the way the game is played. The best way is to just be a
tire-kicker until you have zeroed in on what you are pretty sure is the
right boat for you. There is no rose garden of boats to try & reject for
free until you find one you can live with. It's kind of like getting
engaged to marry a girl.


In some places the broker may retain administration cost out of your
deposit?

I've heard of that but not seen it done. I have seen a few brokers claim
bad faith by the buyer and keep the deposit, and in some cases they were
justified.


I do not have any statistic on how fast you can get your deposit back?


It's supposed to be held in escrow in a non-interest-bearing account,
although I don't think that's a legal requirement. All the brokers I ever
dealt with kept the deposit check uncashed in their safe deposit box, and
simply handed it back if the deal fell through.

It can certainly be discouraging dealing with brokers, and I wouldn't
blame you for avoiding them. However not all brokers are crooks. The best
way to shop is to have the knowledge & experience to get down & dirty
choosing & inspecting a boat for yourself. There are a number of books
that can be a big help but experience is the best teacher. There's even
some good advice on teh internet... sometimes

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

In article
,
shaun wrote:

hi ya Jere have read about your freighter :-)
glad to see that you have found your boat and hope you enjoy her for
many more miles.
Any new updates since about 2 years ago...that was about the first time
i read about your XAN


You may be confusing me with Paul V, the author of cruisenews.net.

We've had Xan for 12-13 seasons now. It's gotten almost boring: head
down Friday afternoon, head out some place, have a great time,
reluctantly head home sometime Sunday. Did 3 week-long trips and the
pattern was essentially: wake up, decide whether to move, move or not,
enjoy the scenery, eat, sleep.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

How long is this silly stupid bickering gonna go on?
"DSK" wrote in message
. ..
Charlie Morgan wrote:
What part of "broker" is difficult for you?


The part where a person with no license, no credentials, and no knowledge
claims to be a broker, a surveyor, and a "Captain."

DSK