On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 21:55:22 -0600, CaveLamb
wrote:

Would a swivel shackle help prevent 3 braid hockle?

I assume you mean a swivel at the anchor? If yes, perhaps.

There are a lot of different "hockle" issues. Like most cruisers with
boats over 40 ft or so, we anchor with a chain rode and then use a
hook line to provide some shock absorption, and also to take the load
off of the windlass and anchor pulpit. For years we used a hook line
made from three strand nylon. Unfortunately three strand nylon tries
to unlay its own twist when you put a strain on it, and that in turn
twists the chain. Some of that twist goes away when you remove the
strain but not all of it, probably due to frictional forces. Over
time you end up with a hockled chain, even with a swivel at the
anchor. We've recently switched over to an 8-plait nylon braid for
the hook line. It's difficult to splice but does seem to help with
eliminating twisted chain. The 8-plait braid would also make a
superb all nylon rode if properly chafe protected because it does not
hockle up when stowed.

On Jan 30, 8:33*pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 21:55:22 -0600, CaveLamb
wrote:

Would a swivel shackle help prevent 3 braid hockle?

I assume you mean a swivel at the anchor? *If yes, perhaps.

There are a lot of different "hockle" issues. *Like most cruisers with
boats over 40 ft or so, we anchor with a chain rode and then use a
hook line to provide some shock absorption, and also to take the load
off of the windlass and anchor pulpit. *For years we used a hook line
made from three strand nylon. *Unfortunately three strand nylon tries
to unlay its own twist when you put a strain on it, and that in turn
twists the chain. *Some of that twist goes away when you remove the
strain but not all of it, probably due to frictional forces. *Over
time you end up with a hockled chain, even with a swivel at the
anchor. * We've recently switched over to an 8-plait nylon braid for
the hook line. * It's difficult to splice but does seem to help with
eliminating twisted chain. * The 8-plait braid would also make a
superb all nylon rode if properly chafe protected because it does not
hockle up when stowed.



A well thought out relpy Wayne. My experince with my 17 grt Freya is
similar. I tried the bridal and the "shock obsorber? gizmo. Both with
the same result. Do you remember those 10 cent balsa rubber band
airplanes? (circa 1950s-early 60s)

That is what happens with three strand line when put under a load. Ive
watched 100 feet of four inch three strand nylon undrer FULL load
last winter...... (hang off line) it was attacched to the stern of the
boat I was on(180', 930 GRT) and a structure. It parted 10 feet
forward of the 6 foot eye splice. It looked just like that rubber band
on that 10 cent airplane. WIth each surg it twisted complet rotations
seveal times. Bammm! Im sure Joe will chime in here with his crew boat
storyies with their 1 1/2 lines.

Ive also seen 100+ ton codends being drug up the stern ramp of factory
trawlers in the Bering Sea. They used double braid in the 80s but ALL
use AMSTEAL now. Its a plait line. That stuff has completely replaced
wire roap in the commercial trawl fisheries. Why? Amsteal is rock
****ing rugged, dont rust, no fish-hooks, light and faster to splice.
Its a god send to riggers.

Now for the swivel controversy...... if you use double braid you now
eliminate one more link (the swivel) in your ground tackle which
follows my rigging guidlines..... less is better. Also, take a dock
walk and look at those boat owners using those swivels. My experince
is 30%+ are installed incorrectly. There is a right end and wrong end
to attach to the road....

Best wishes.......
Bob.

Bob wrote:
On Jan 30, 8:33 pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 21:55:22 -0600, CaveLamb
wrote:

Would a swivel shackle help prevent 3 braid hockle?
I assume you mean a swivel at the anchor? If yes, perhaps.

There are a lot of different "hockle" issues. Like most cruisers with
boats over 40 ft or so, we anchor with a chain rode and then use a
hook line to provide some shock absorption, and also to take the load
off of the windlass and anchor pulpit. For years we used a hook line
made from three strand nylon. Unfortunately three strand nylon tries
to unlay its own twist when you put a strain on it, and that in turn
twists the chain. Some of that twist goes away when you remove the
strain but not all of it, probably due to frictional forces. Over
time you end up with a hockled chain, even with a swivel at the
anchor. We've recently switched over to an 8-plait nylon braid for
the hook line. It's difficult to splice but does seem to help with
eliminating twisted chain. The 8-plait braid would also make a
superb all nylon rode if properly chafe protected because it does not
hockle up when stowed.



A well thought out relpy Wayne. My experince with my 17 grt Freya is
similar. I tried the bridal and the "shock obsorber? gizmo. Both with
the same result. Do you remember those 10 cent balsa rubber band
airplanes? (circa 1950s-early 60s)

That is what happens with three strand line when put under a load. Ive
watched 100 feet of four inch three strand nylon undrer FULL load
last winter...... (hang off line) it was attacched to the stern of the
boat I was on(180', 930 GRT) and a structure. It parted 10 feet
forward of the 6 foot eye splice. It looked just like that rubber band
on that 10 cent airplane. WIth each surg it twisted complet rotations
seveal times. Bammm! Im sure Joe will chime in here with his crew boat
storyies with their 1 1/2 lines.

Ive also seen 100+ ton codends being drug up the stern ramp of factory
trawlers in the Bering Sea. They used double braid in the 80s but ALL
use AMSTEAL now. Its a plait line. That stuff has completely replaced
wire roap in the commercial trawl fisheries. Why? Amsteal is rock
****ing rugged, dont rust, no fish-hooks, light and faster to splice.
Its a god send to riggers.

Now for the swivel controversy...... if you use double braid you now
eliminate one more link (the swivel) in your ground tackle which
follows my rigging guidlines..... less is better. Also, take a dock
walk and look at those boat owners using those swivels. My experince
is 30%+ are installed incorrectly. There is a right end and wrong end
to attach to the road....

Best wishes.......
Bob.


I copy you both...
It's not a twisting issue - it's a tension thing.

I have two 250 foot rodes. One 1/2" double braid, on 1/2" 3 laid.

Or maybe I should say I have one 250 foot double braid and a piece
of spare 3-lay?

And I'll lose the swivel...

Thanks guys.

Richard


--

Richard Lamb
email me:
web site: http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb

On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 23:33:00 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 21:55:22 -0600, CaveLamb
wrote:

Would a swivel shackle help prevent 3 braid hockle?

I assume you mean a swivel at the anchor? If yes, perhaps.

There are a lot of different "hockle" issues. Like most cruisers with
boats over 40 ft or so, we anchor with a chain rode and then use a
hook line to provide some shock absorption, and also to take the load
off of the windlass and anchor pulpit. For years we used a hook line
made from three strand nylon. Unfortunately three strand nylon tries
to unlay its own twist when you put a strain on it, and that in turn
twists the chain. Some of that twist goes away when you remove the
strain but not all of it, probably due to frictional forces. Over
time you end up with a hockled chain, even with a swivel at the
anchor. We've recently switched over to an 8-plait nylon braid for
the hook line. It's difficult to splice but does seem to help with
eliminating twisted chain. The 8-plait braid would also make a
superb all nylon rode if properly chafe protected because it does not
hockle up when stowed.

I always used a nylon line as a snubber to the anchor chain and I
agree that it does untwist as load is put on it. In the other hand,
the chain runs in over a bow roller with a groove in it that tends to
untwist the chain and I go forward and operate the anchor winch from
there and the chain is always twisted to some extent, even at times
when I just threw the chain over and locked the gipsy instead of
rigging the snubber.

As for swivels, I once had a swivel, not on the anchor, break and have
been a bit wary of them ever since and don't use them. Illogical,
perhaps, but it is just one thing less to worry about (if you are a
worrier :-)
Cheers,

Bruce