"Bob" wrote in message
...
Wilbur Hubbard (wishing I were about forty years younger)


I dont want to waste my time finding your original post. However, the
one I recall that cought my eye was your statment that anchor rode
should be 3 strand nylon.

Here I completly disagree in one aspect. Yes, 3 strand is okay for day
anchors in winds below 20 k how ever in conditions where "extream"
loads are experinced nylon double braid is best. Why? It wont hockle
and part do to the hockle. Yes double braid has less stretch but if
you ballance the correct working load, length, and chain/line ratio it
will counter the reduced stratch. Your ground tackle In a survival
situation should be double braid not 3 strand. And i dont give a ****
what Ocean Navigator or Cruising WOrld mag you quote. Recreational
sailing advice/best practices is driven by marketing stratiges to get
you to buy a product or erronious tradition.

Do a review of the approperate case studies and youll find that rodes
part in three typical places:
1) Chafe point where line gets fair lead through a closed chock on
deck. ( this can be cured)
2) standing part of line due to hockle (this can be cured with double
braid)
3) eye splice/shackle connection to chain. (this can be cured)

This aint briain surgury its jsut plain riggin.

BOb




More lack of experience with small sailboats noted. Now, I know why Joe
thinks you're woefully uninformed.

First off, I never said "all nylon rode" as I've always been a proponent of
eight to ten feet of heavy chain attached to the anchor then a shackle and
eye-spliced nylon around a thimble. Now that I'm well off and retired I even
use stainless steel chain lengths.

An all-chain rode (and you need at least two minimum, preferable three at
the ready) is untenable because of way too much weight which will compromise
a small vessel's ability to sail.

Hockling is NO PROBLEM unless you anchor for days or weeks at a time and go
round and round on the anchor. Even then a wise sailor like myself will have
a swivel attached to the rode so it can't twist and hockle. ANY time you see
a hockled rode you are seeing ineptitude and neglect. Wake up!

Three-strand is easy to eye splice. Double-braid is a real pain in the ass.
Three-strand is more stretchy which is exactly what one wants in an anchor
rode to reduce shock loads on attachment points. Three-strand molds and
mildews far less. Three strand is less expensive. Only an ignorant sailor
thinks double-braid is the superior choice for an anchor rode.


Wilbur Hubbard

"CaveLamb" wrote in message
m...


That's not what the magazine article that he read said though!


Stow it! I speak from 35 years of ACTIVE sailing and living aboard
experience.

As is the usual case, Bob is ill-informed. He seems to delight in displaying
his usual lack of due diligence and presumptuous mental impecuniousness


See my reply to the PUTZ, further up this thread, debunking his
misconceptions.



Wilbur Hubbard

"CaveLamb" wrote in message
m...
Bob wrote:
Wilbur Hubbard (wishing I were about forty years younger)


I dont want to waste my time finding your original post. However, the
one I recall that cought my eye was your statment that anchor rode
should be 3 strand nylon.

Here I completly disagree in one aspect. Yes, 3 strand is okay for day
anchors in winds below 20 k how ever in conditions where "extream"
loads are experinced nylon double braid is best. Why? It wont hockle
and part do to the hockle. Yes double braid has less stretch but if
you ballance the correct working load, length, and chain/line ratio it
will counter the reduced stratch. Your ground tackle In a survival
situation should be double braid not 3 strand. And i dont give a ****
what Ocean Navigator or Cruising WOrld mag you quote. Recreational
sailing advice/best practices is driven by marketing stratiges to get
you to buy a product or erronious tradition.

Do a review of the approperate case studies and youll find that rodes
part in three typical places:
1) Chafe point where line gets fair lead through a closed chock on
deck. ( this can be cured)
2) standing part of line due to hockle (this can be cured with double
braid)
3) eye splice/shackle connection to chain. (this can be cured)

This aint briain surgury its jsut plain riggin.

BOb

BOb,

Would a swivel shackle help prevent 3 braid hockle?


Bingo! But, unless one anchors for a long time and goes around and around,
no such device is necessary. It takes many, many, many times boxing the
compass before hockling rears it's ugly head. If you don't have a swivel the
simple expedient of rotating the bitter end of the rode in the opposite
direction your vessel boxes the compass will relax the twist and set it
aright.

Hockling is nothing but a symptom of ignorance and neglect.


Wilbur Hubbard

What they ask for, if it's included in "mariners documents" category and
what they look at are two different things.

I apologize for my hasty reply. A liscensed master or a mariner with a
rating now carries a Merchant Mariner Credential (MMC). They are
orange and look just like a US Passport. It takes the place of the "Z
Card" and that pretty 25 ton master license proudly hanging onyour
wall. I do better with more accurate and detaild reples so not to add
to the banter.



Besides, what if I'm not carrying
passengers for hire?

Its very simple I a person has a USCG master license they are required
to have a TWIC. The CG assumes the license is for those who actually
use it for work not for an ego stroking wall art.


What the hell do I need a TWIC card for?

CFRs require it for all people needing dock acess for thier job. But
since you dont sail your license you reall have no use for either a
TWIC or that master license (sutible for framing and display) Hang on
to that purdy license. You wont ever get another one.

Give me a
break, dOOd! Stop with the Big Brother, love attitude. PUTZ!

Dood then stop voting for republicans! They have consistantly grown
our national debt and taken our personal freedoms more than any group
in moder history.

Bob
Wilbur Hubbard

Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
"Bruce" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 19:23:17 -0800 (PST), Bob
wrote:

As for being pooped, boat length has nothing to do with it. If the
wave travels faster then the boat you get pooped, if the boat is at
wave speed, or faster, then you don't. But then, you don't have to
read a book to discover that little gem... just go sailing.
My dear Bruce. I belive the defintion of getting pooped is when water
is shiped on deck. TO have a wave pass the boat is simply that: a wave
going by.

Please forgive me if I misunderstood your post.

Bob
I suspect that you are correct and I was guilty of jumping to the
conclusion that Willie was talking about running before the wind as a
storm tactic, in which case being pooped is usually when you aren't
traveling at wave speed and the waves are breaking over the stern.
Cheers,

Bruce




What a simpleton! A ballasted, monohull sailboat will not be able to outrun
the wave train. Fast multi-hulls may but the type of sailboat under
discussion here will have waves approach from astern (when running which is
the hoped-for case in the trades and elsewhere as in 'fair winds') slip
under the stern or quarter and move away from the bow.

If the wavelength happens to be (because of any number of diverse conditions
of wind, sea and depth) just slightly different than LOA, as the bow is
lifted by the wave exiting the bow the stern falls into the trough just in
time to have the top of the wave approaching from the stern poop it.

Pah! You must have been lying about voyaging - either that or too drunk or
asleep to observe how things work.


Wilbur Hubbard




Talk about simpletons..

I've seem video of a TP53 doing 25 knots - yes, under sail!

--

Richard Lamb
email me:
web site: http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb

"CaveLamb" wrote in message
news
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
"Bruce" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 19:23:17 -0800 (PST), Bob
wrote:

As for being pooped, boat length has nothing to do with it. If the
wave travels faster then the boat you get pooped, if the boat is at
wave speed, or faster, then you don't. But then, you don't have to
read a book to discover that little gem... just go sailing.
My dear Bruce. I belive the defintion of getting pooped is when water
is shiped on deck. TO have a wave pass the boat is simply that: a wave
going by.

Please forgive me if I misunderstood your post.

Bob
I suspect that you are correct and I was guilty of jumping to the
conclusion that Willie was talking about running before the wind as a
storm tactic, in which case being pooped is usually when you aren't
traveling at wave speed and the waves are breaking over the stern.
Cheers,

Bruce




What a simpleton! A ballasted, monohull sailboat will not be able to
outrun the wave train. Fast multi-hulls may but the type of sailboat
under discussion here will have waves approach from astern (when running
which is the hoped-for case in the trades and elsewhere as in 'fair
winds') slip under the stern or quarter and move away from the bow.

If the wavelength happens to be (because of any number of diverse
conditions of wind, sea and depth) just slightly different than LOA, as
the bow is lifted by the wave exiting the bow the stern falls into the
trough just in time to have the top of the wave approaching from the
stern poop it.

Pah! You must have been lying about voyaging - either that or too drunk
or asleep to observe how things work.


Wilbur Hubbard


Talk about simpletons..

I've seem video of a TP53 doing 25 knots - yes, under sail!




OMG! Try reading with comprehension. We are talking here about ballasted,
cruising sailboats which are limited to a concept called "hull speed." Race
boats are not cruising boats in case you've not noticed.


Wilbur Hubbard

Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
"CaveLamb" wrote in message
news
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
"Bruce" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 19:23:17 -0800 (PST), Bob
wrote:

As for being pooped, boat length has nothing to do with it. If the
wave travels faster then the boat you get pooped, if the boat is at
wave speed, or faster, then you don't. But then, you don't have to
read a book to discover that little gem... just go sailing.
My dear Bruce. I belive the defintion of getting pooped is when water
is shiped on deck. TO have a wave pass the boat is simply that: a wave
going by.

Please forgive me if I misunderstood your post.

Bob
I suspect that you are correct and I was guilty of jumping to the
conclusion that Willie was talking about running before the wind as a
storm tactic, in which case being pooped is usually when you aren't
traveling at wave speed and the waves are breaking over the stern.
Cheers,

Bruce



What a simpleton! A ballasted, monohull sailboat will not be able to
outrun the wave train. Fast multi-hulls may but the type of sailboat
under discussion here will have waves approach from astern (when running
which is the hoped-for case in the trades and elsewhere as in 'fair
winds') slip under the stern or quarter and move away from the bow.

If the wavelength happens to be (because of any number of diverse
conditions of wind, sea and depth) just slightly different than LOA, as
the bow is lifted by the wave exiting the bow the stern falls into the
trough just in time to have the top of the wave approaching from the
stern poop it.

Pah! You must have been lying about voyaging - either that or too drunk
or asleep to observe how things work.


Wilbur Hubbard

Talk about simpletons..

I've seem video of a TP53 doing 25 knots - yes, under sail!




OMG! Try reading with comprehension. We are talking here about ballasted,
cruising sailboats which are limited to a concept called "hull speed." Race
boats are not cruising boats in case you've not noticed.


Wilbur Hubbard




You wish!

quote (right above) A ballasted, monohull sailboat

--

Richard Lamb
email me:
web site: http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb

On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 11:16:57 -0800 (PST), Bob
wrote:

CFRs require it for all people needing dock acess for thier job. But
since you dont sail your license you reall have no use for either a
TWIC or that master license (sutible for framing and display) Hang on
to that purdy license.

The latest CFRs actually go farther than that. They say that without
a TWIC card your Masters ticket or OUPV are no longer valid.

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 11:16:57 -0800 (PST), Bob
wrote:

CFRs require it for all people needing dock acess for thier job. But
since you dont sail your license you reall have no use for either a
TWIC or that master license (sutible for framing and display) Hang on
to that purdy license.

The latest CFRs actually go farther than that. They say that without
a TWIC card your Masters ticket or OUPV are no longer valid.





There will be lawsuits. The government sold you something you paid good
money for and invested good time for that gave you certain rights and
privileges and now they say it's no longer valid.

That is fraud in anybody's book.


Wilbur Hubbard

First off, I never said "all nylon rode" as I've always been a proponent of
eight to ten feet of heavy chain attached to the anchor then a shackle and
eye-spliced nylon around a thimble. Now that I'm well off and retired I even
use stainless steel chain lengths.


That may be well and good for your smaller day sailor but heavier
boats who anchor in places with unknown bottom obstructions or lack a
slip to retreat to when small craft or storm warnings are raised may
use a different arrangment. Personallly I have two ground tackel legs
each is 300'. 150' of 3/8" HT chain followed by 150' of double braid
line. NO SWIVEL. I use a snubber on the chain if I use less than 150'
but if weather comes up I ease out more scope . when i do that i now
have the double braid in the water plus increased scope plus 150' of
chain (which act as cantanery) . But of course when just passing
through and expect easy weather I use something different I think
recreational sailors call it a "day hook."

OH, the big difernce I do is I have my bow cleats located on the toe
rail area. Why...... look how deck cleats are positioned on CG 47'
lifeboats, tugs and other safely designed workboats. When a line is
passed through a closed chock located at the toe rail the line has an
increased posibility of parting when loads approach BS of line. That
is why the cleat goes on the toe rail area. I, of course, had to
reinforce the deck to hull joint and add bracing and extra glass on
the inside of the boat in my case the anchor locker area. I dont want
the cleats to pull out or take a chunk of my boat when a 26,000 lb
strain was placed on the cleat.

Fortunalty, do to planning, I have not expeienced anchoring in
sustained 90k+ winds............ so to be honest I dont if it will
work. I have sat nicely in sustained 50k gusts to 80k...



Hockling is NO PROBLEM unless you anchor for days or weeks at a time and go
round and round on the anchor.

The other condition when hockeling occures is when 3 strand is loaded
beond its SWL and put under repeating loads. Youknow.... as in
anchoring with a swell. that constant slack-load-slack-load will cause
the 3 strand to do all sorts of movement. There several toys that
demonstrate that action nicely.


Three-strand is easy to eye splice. Double-braid is a real pain in the ass.


3 strand is easy yes..... for some. Double braid is also easy for
some...... I am able to make a simple 7/8" double braid eye splice in
about 20 minuits. Of course my firs half dozen took almost an hour
each. But when its quiet on the bridge its a good way for an AB suck
up to the captain learning a new skill instead of sittin in the ness
drinking coffee or taling on the cell phone. I dont attempt splicing
used line. To many tricks I dont kow about with that stuff. But new DB
is very easy to work with.


Three-strand is more stretchy which is exactly what one wants in an anchor
rode to reduce shock loads on attachment points.


This is the common montra found in recrational sailing magzines.Yes, 3
strand nylon typically has a stratch

Samson 3 strand Elastic Elongation...
Total stretch of 35% at 75% of break strength and 42% at break
At % break strength: 10%-7.8% 20%-11.3% 30%- 15.9%

New England Double braid nylon Elastic Elongation
At % break strength: 10%-3.5% 20%-5.6% 30%-8.5%

So if I have 150' of DB line 150 x 8.5% = 12.75 feet of give. PLUS the
small cantanary from the 150' chain and Im just fine.

So the question is my dear friend is................. how much play is
adiquite for a given boat and given wave chariteristeics and given
wind

For me 12 feet stretch is what I prefer. I havnt ripped any deck hard
wear off my boat nor have I parted any lines.

I hope this is detailed enough Willbur.




Three-strand molds and
mildews far less. Three strand is less expensive.

A folly of comparisons. You may be a broke ass nigga I on the other
hand have a sizable investment to protect. Me and my boat. I use
materials best paired with a system and application.


Only an ignorant sailor
thinks double-braid is the superior choice for an anchor rode.

Wilbur Hubbard

Go vist Samson or England Rope and look at the Professional Marine
products ..... chose anchoring and docking. While your looking review
the other specility line product catigories.
read and learn. Only the cookasses in Louisiana still use 3 strand for
dock n hang off lines cause they are too stupid to be able to read and
learn the DB splicing instructions. The more professional boat
companines.... such as Edison Chouest Offshore use plait lines. Why,
cause thoes boat companies have a higher percent of literate mariners.
plus they also have a pretty good inhouse training facility.

Three strand is something like the 'answering machine" It a buggy whip
of lines.


Time for you to get our to the stone age Wilbur. Time marches on.
Bob