Wilbur Hubbard (wishing I were about forty years younger)


I dont want to waste my time finding your original post. However, the
one I recall that cought my eye was your statment that anchor rode
should be 3 strand nylon.

Here I completly disagree in one aspect. Yes, 3 strand is okay for day
anchors in winds below 20 k how ever in conditions where "extream"
loads are experinced nylon double braid is best. Why? It wont hockle
and part do to the hockle. Yes double braid has less stretch but if
you ballance the correct working load, length, and chain/line ratio it
will counter the reduced stratch. Your ground tackle In a survival
situation should be double braid not 3 strand. And i dont give a ****
what Ocean Navigator or Cruising WOrld mag you quote. Recreational
sailing advice/best practices is driven by marketing stratiges to get
you to buy a product or erronious tradition.

Do a review of the approperate case studies and youll find that rodes
part in three typical places:
1) Chafe point where line gets fair lead through a closed chock on
deck. ( this can be cured)
2) standing part of line due to hockle (this can be cured with double
braid)
3) eye splice/shackle connection to chain. (this can be cured)

This aint briain surgury its jsut plain riggin.

BOb

Bob wrote:
Wilbur Hubbard (wishing I were about forty years younger)


I dont want to waste my time finding your original post. However, the
one I recall that cought my eye was your statment that anchor rode
should be 3 strand nylon.

Here I completly disagree in one aspect. Yes, 3 strand is okay for day
anchors in winds below 20 k how ever in conditions where "extream"
loads are experinced nylon double braid is best. Why? It wont hockle
and part do to the hockle. Yes double braid has less stretch but if
you ballance the correct working load, length, and chain/line ratio it
will counter the reduced stratch. Your ground tackle In a survival
situation should be double braid not 3 strand. And i dont give a ****
what Ocean Navigator or Cruising WOrld mag you quote. Recreational
sailing advice/best practices is driven by marketing stratiges to get
you to buy a product or erronious tradition.

Do a review of the approperate case studies and youll find that rodes
part in three typical places:
1) Chafe point where line gets fair lead through a closed chock on
deck. ( this can be cured)
2) standing part of line due to hockle (this can be cured with double
braid)
3) eye splice/shackle connection to chain. (this can be cured)

This aint briain surgury its jsut plain riggin.

BOb


That's not what the magazine article that he read said though!

--

Richard Lamb
email me:
web site: http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb

"CaveLamb" wrote in message
m...


That's not what the magazine article that he read said though!


Stow it! I speak from 35 years of ACTIVE sailing and living aboard
experience.

As is the usual case, Bob is ill-informed. He seems to delight in displaying
his usual lack of due diligence and presumptuous mental impecuniousness


See my reply to the PUTZ, further up this thread, debunking his
misconceptions.



Wilbur Hubbard

On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 11:16:22 -0500, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"CaveLamb" wrote in message
om...


That's not what the magazine article that he read said though!


Stow it! I speak from 35 years of ACTIVE sailing and living aboard
experience.

Willie-boy! Living on an anchored boat (live aboard, they call it,
sort of like maritime trailer trash) does not qualify you as an expert
in anything but ferrying groceries out to the boat and garbage back.

So, 35 years of being a grocery delivery boy and a Sanitation engineer
qualifies you for .?



As is the usual case, Bob is ill-informed. He seems to delight in displaying
his usual lack of due diligence and presumptuous mental impecuniousness


See my reply to the PUTZ, further up this thread, debunking his
misconceptions.



Wilbur Hubbard

Cheers,

Bruce

"Bruce" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 11:16:22 -0500, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"CaveLamb" wrote in message
news:g7KdnW4rJ9AjrdvQnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@earthlink. com...


That's not what the magazine article that he read said though!


Stow it! I speak from 35 years of ACTIVE sailing and living aboard
experience.

Willie-boy! Living on an anchored boat (live aboard, they call it,
sort of like maritime trailer trash) does not qualify you as an expert
in anything but ferrying groceries out to the boat and garbage back.

Living aboard AND sailing vs. being stuck at the Bangkok dock for
30-some-odd years. I can sail circles around your forgotten skills, fond
rememberances and rotting hulk of a boat. Face it, Bruce, you are a has-been
while I'm a still-am.

snip to end



Wilbur Hubbard

On Tue, 1 Feb 2011 17:01:17 -0500, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"Bruce" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 11:16:22 -0500, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"CaveLamb" wrote in message
news:g7KdnW4rJ9AjrdvQnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@earthlink .com...


That's not what the magazine article that he read said though!


Stow it! I speak from 35 years of ACTIVE sailing and living aboard
experience.

Willie-boy! Living on an anchored boat (live aboard, they call it,
sort of like maritime trailer trash) does not qualify you as an expert
in anything but ferrying groceries out to the boat and garbage back.

Living aboard AND sailing vs. being stuck at the Bangkok dock for
30-some-odd years. I can sail circles around your forgotten skills, fond
rememberances and rotting hulk of a boat. Face it, Bruce, you are a has-been
while I'm a still-am.

snip to end


Wilbur Hubbard


You keep harping on being stuck at the Bangkok Docks (which don't
exist) when I have never kept a boat in Bangkok simply reinforces your
reputation as a fool.

Your claims of "sailing" seem to be best illustrated by your recent
photographs showing your boat anchored "in the bay", I believe you
wrote.

Just another Sunday Sailor who undertook a hazardous voyage around the
bay and decided to add to the adventure by actually anchoring out for
a night. An intrepid sailor, indeed.

Cheers,

Bruce

"Bruce" wrote in message
...
trimmed some repeat



You keep harping on being stuck at the Bangkok Docks (which don't
exist) when I have never kept a boat in Bangkok simply reinforces your
reputation as a fool.

Your claims of "sailing" seem to be best illustrated by your recent
photographs showing your boat anchored "in the bay", I believe you
wrote.

Just another Sunday Sailor who undertook a hazardous voyage around the
bay and decided to add to the adventure by actually anchoring out for
a night. An intrepid sailor, indeed.


Jealousy is so unbecoming of you, Bruce. LOL!


Wilbur Hubbard

Bob wrote:
Wilbur Hubbard (wishing I were about forty years younger)


I dont want to waste my time finding your original post. However, the
one I recall that cought my eye was your statment that anchor rode
should be 3 strand nylon.

Here I completly disagree in one aspect. Yes, 3 strand is okay for day
anchors in winds below 20 k how ever in conditions where "extream"
loads are experinced nylon double braid is best. Why? It wont hockle
and part do to the hockle. Yes double braid has less stretch but if
you ballance the correct working load, length, and chain/line ratio it
will counter the reduced stratch. Your ground tackle In a survival
situation should be double braid not 3 strand. And i dont give a ****
what Ocean Navigator or Cruising WOrld mag you quote. Recreational
sailing advice/best practices is driven by marketing stratiges to get
you to buy a product or erronious tradition.

Do a review of the approperate case studies and youll find that rodes
part in three typical places:
1) Chafe point where line gets fair lead through a closed chock on
deck. ( this can be cured)
2) standing part of line due to hockle (this can be cured with double
braid)
3) eye splice/shackle connection to chain. (this can be cured)

This aint briain surgury its jsut plain riggin.

BOb

BOb,

Would a swivel shackle help prevent 3 braid hockle?

--

Richard Lamb
email me:
web site: http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb

On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 21:55:22 -0600, CaveLamb
wrote:

Would a swivel shackle help prevent 3 braid hockle?

I assume you mean a swivel at the anchor? If yes, perhaps.

There are a lot of different "hockle" issues. Like most cruisers with
boats over 40 ft or so, we anchor with a chain rode and then use a
hook line to provide some shock absorption, and also to take the load
off of the windlass and anchor pulpit. For years we used a hook line
made from three strand nylon. Unfortunately three strand nylon tries
to unlay its own twist when you put a strain on it, and that in turn
twists the chain. Some of that twist goes away when you remove the
strain but not all of it, probably due to frictional forces. Over
time you end up with a hockled chain, even with a swivel at the
anchor. We've recently switched over to an 8-plait nylon braid for
the hook line. It's difficult to splice but does seem to help with
eliminating twisted chain. The 8-plait braid would also make a
superb all nylon rode if properly chafe protected because it does not
hockle up when stowed.

On Jan 30, 8:33*pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 21:55:22 -0600, CaveLamb
wrote:

Would a swivel shackle help prevent 3 braid hockle?

I assume you mean a swivel at the anchor? *If yes, perhaps.

There are a lot of different "hockle" issues. *Like most cruisers with
boats over 40 ft or so, we anchor with a chain rode and then use a
hook line to provide some shock absorption, and also to take the load
off of the windlass and anchor pulpit. *For years we used a hook line
made from three strand nylon. *Unfortunately three strand nylon tries
to unlay its own twist when you put a strain on it, and that in turn
twists the chain. *Some of that twist goes away when you remove the
strain but not all of it, probably due to frictional forces. *Over
time you end up with a hockled chain, even with a swivel at the
anchor. * We've recently switched over to an 8-plait nylon braid for
the hook line. * It's difficult to splice but does seem to help with
eliminating twisted chain. * The 8-plait braid would also make a
superb all nylon rode if properly chafe protected because it does not
hockle up when stowed.



A well thought out relpy Wayne. My experince with my 17 grt Freya is
similar. I tried the bridal and the "shock obsorber? gizmo. Both with
the same result. Do you remember those 10 cent balsa rubber band
airplanes? (circa 1950s-early 60s)

That is what happens with three strand line when put under a load. Ive
watched 100 feet of four inch three strand nylon undrer FULL load
last winter...... (hang off line) it was attacched to the stern of the
boat I was on(180', 930 GRT) and a structure. It parted 10 feet
forward of the 6 foot eye splice. It looked just like that rubber band
on that 10 cent airplane. WIth each surg it twisted complet rotations
seveal times. Bammm! Im sure Joe will chime in here with his crew boat
storyies with their 1 1/2 lines.

Ive also seen 100+ ton codends being drug up the stern ramp of factory
trawlers in the Bering Sea. They used double braid in the 80s but ALL
use AMSTEAL now. Its a plait line. That stuff has completely replaced
wire roap in the commercial trawl fisheries. Why? Amsteal is rock
****ing rugged, dont rust, no fish-hooks, light and faster to splice.
Its a god send to riggers.

Now for the swivel controversy...... if you use double braid you now
eliminate one more link (the swivel) in your ground tackle which
follows my rigging guidlines..... less is better. Also, take a dock
walk and look at those boat owners using those swivels. My experince
is 30%+ are installed incorrectly. There is a right end and wrong end
to attach to the road....

Best wishes.......
Bob.