Capt. Rob wrote:


Jeff, you not only sound like an idiot...you are one. Can you explain
the advantage of not having AC on board??? Is it too heavy??? Too
complicated for you? Too expensive??? To nice to be comfortable on
really hot days when fixing that head of yours? You're courting a heat
stroke, dude.


Let me explain for you bubbles. Your boat is to small. You need all the
space you have.

AC's take lots of maintainance, need major power, and are heavy. My
friends now sailing down the coast of S. America tossed both AC's off
the P 40 before taking off. They needed the space, did not want the
hassles, and they knew they would be on the hook never pluging in. They
put lots of fans aboard that are 12 volt, have a wind scoop and needed
to loose weight ...which having no AC's helps to accomplish. If you had
proper tropical canvas to shade your boat that would help you on hot
days. What they did for comfort was install a solar panel and wind gen
to run the fans inside 24/7 if needed. Thats what I suggest you do.

Now we have not had a day that the "feels like temp" has not been
under 107 for a month or two now. We have shade canvas and lot's of
AC's but we have the room and the power to run them.


Joe


RB
35s5
NY

Let me explain for you bubbles. Your boat is to small. You need all the

space you have.

For what? Short range cruises and overnighters? Most of our storage is
empty. The area where the AC is is also empty. Our lazerette is mostly
empty. Aft lockers empty. Forward storage not in use. Scotty's skull
also empty.
Care to explain why we don't have room on a 35s5 that's not cruising
long range?


AC's take lots of maintainance, need major power, and are heavy. My

friends now sailing down the coast of S. America tossed both AC's off
the P 40 before taking off.


??? My entire 17'000 BTU system weight is 75 lbs and is mounted under
the sink! If it needs service I'll get it serviced by my yard like
anything else. So??? It's harldy complicated, though I don't doubt your
system may be.
I understand your POV, and even Jeff's, but we're sailing locally,
hanging out at the dock for BBQ with friends and daysailing. The setup
is really nice so far. You can't argue with cool...and in Scotty's case
you can't argue with a fool!


RB
35s5
NY

Capt. Rob wrote:
Powerboat thinking is putting in an aft cabin with poor ventilation
and then claiming its a feature because it requires you to add a
genset to run the A/C at night on a mooring.


Well, then every sailboat I've ever been on needs air conditioning.
I've never gone into a sailboat cabin on a 90+ degree day and found it
"cool." Sorry, you either like the heat or are full of crap.

Then you haven't been on many sailboats. And we know that you've only
spent a few nights on the hook on a few boats. We are talking about
night temps on a mooring, not daytime. After all, the point of going
out on a boat is to be outdoors, not huddled down below with the
genset and A/C running! I anchor in places where we can go for a
swim, or kayak if it gets too hot in the cockpit. Why would you go
somewhere where you have to stay down below?

And really, even in the midday heat, my forward cabins are cooler than
the cockpit.

And before you bring up your kid as an excuse, remember that we
cruised with our daughter from the time she was 10 months old. For
dockside relief we moved to a marina with a small swimming pool, but
we never had an overheating issue underway or on a mooring. Which
brings up a question, why don't you have a dodger to protect your kid
from the Sun? Is it because the cockpit is too small?



At my marina most of the powerboats over 25 feet have A/C, but I
don't
think any of the sailboats do (certainly none run on daily basis).


Maybe people your way have no money! About half the sailboats here have
A/C and everyone who doesn't have it wishes they did. I guess you never
do anything below on really hot days!

That may be because you have a lot of marina queens. The question is,
how many of them run the genset all night when they anchor?

Or maybe you're suggesting your cabin is a healthy 75 degrees on a 95
degree day???

As I've said, in the midday sun the cabin and cockpit can heat up. My
boat, however, has six large, forward facing hatches, plus four large
side hatches (too big to be called "portholes") plus two more large
aft facing hatches, and four small portholes. Plus the bows tend to
funnel up the surface air over the deck. The result is, if the wind
is 5 knots or more, the cabin temp is pretty close to surface water
temp. The bunks are definitely chilled down, but the main cabin stays
a few degrees warmer.

To help this, we've added tight mesh (Phifertex) over the large plexi
windows, and "surface skyscreens" on the hatches. This makes a huge
difference in how much the cabin heats up.
http://uk.oceanair.co.uk/da/10495


Jeff, you not only sound like an idiot...you are one.

No Bob, you're the idiot claiming that it would be horrific to anchor
out without A/C. Only a powerboater with no ventilation would make
that claim.

Can you explain
the advantage of not having AC on board??? Is it too heavy???

A bit, but I don't worry too much about that. However, A/C plus a
genset does start to add up on a catamaran.

Too complicated for you?

I'm a licensed A/C technician. Gauge set, tanks of refrigerant,
tools, etc. Its the family business.

Too expensive???

Actually, yes. As a retiree on a fixed income I've started looking at
money differently. The cost, perhaps $5K or more to do my boat
properly, means $300 a year, for the rest of my life! Add the $420 my
marina charges for the electricity, and this becomes a substantial hit
given that we spend very limited time at the dock. If we lived on the
boat I might look at this differently!

But we're really talking about running it at a mooring so we have to
add maybe $5K to $10K for a genset plus some annual expense. This is
way too much money and hassle for something that isn't needed, and
isn't desirable.

To nice to be comfortable on
really hot days when fixing that head of yours? You're courting a heat
stroke, dude.

To be honest, on days like that (perhaps 1 or 2 a year) I only do
about an hour's work before taking a long break. Would I pay several
hundred dollars so I could work longer? Very doubtful indeed!

The discussion is not about A/C at the dock for marina queens, its
about on a mooring, where cruisers like me spend most of our time.
When there's boat work to be done during vacation, I'm the one who
stays cool on the boat, while women-folk are sweltering ashore.
(Actually hopping from one air conditioned shop to another!)

You're claiming you need to add a genset to be comfortable on your
boat. Obviously, your boat has terrible ventilation because almost
every boat I've cruised on is quite comfortable if the water is 75
degrees.

And, you might check out the water temps in other places. It pretty
warm now down in FL, but in Winter in the Keys its around 68 degrees.
Why don't you ask Neal if he needs A/C on his boat?

On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 07:32:20 -0400, Jeff wrote:

Capt. Rob wrote:
If that isn't powerboat thinking, I don't
know what is!

Powerboat thinking is not about air conditiioning, Jeff. It's about
powerboating. It's about selling your sailboat and buying a powerboat.

Powerboat thinking is putting in an aft cabin with poor ventilation
and then claiming its a feature because it requires you to add a
genset to run the A/C at night on a mooring.

At my marina most of the powerboats over 25 feet have A/C, but I don't
think any of the sailboats do (certainly none run on daily basis).

You may daysail, but you have a powerboat mentality.


Last charter I took ( Abaco, the Bahamas) the nightly argument was
whether to run the Genset and AC or not. I always argued against it.
Didn't always win. Determining if I can charter with those folks
again.

Nothing more irritating than pulling into a quiet cove setting up and
having some idiot come in later, and crank up a noisy genset so they
can run all their toys, including AC. Wonder why they didn't just
stay home.

Where I used to keep my boat, the marina charged a healthy surcharge
if you had and ran AC using their shore power.

I sail in an area that is much hotter than LIS. Never had an
uncomfortable night offshore without AC. Set the windscoops, opened
up the boat and sleeping great.

Never found the boat to uncomfortable to work on with opening ports,
hatches, windscoops, fans, etc. Of course, I'm fairly well work
hardened and not a marshmellow.

I haven't kept a boat there for about 8 years now, but when I did,
very few of the sailboats had gensets or AC. Maybe times have
changed. Well of course it has, that place ain't there no more.

Frank

Last charter I took in Belize, we had AC aboard... never turned it on, never
even thought about turning it on.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 07:32:20 -0400, Jeff wrote:

Capt. Rob wrote:
If that isn't powerboat thinking, I don't
know what is!

Powerboat thinking is not about air conditiioning, Jeff. It's about
powerboating. It's about selling your sailboat and buying a powerboat.

Powerboat thinking is putting in an aft cabin with poor ventilation
and then claiming its a feature because it requires you to add a
genset to run the A/C at night on a mooring.

At my marina most of the powerboats over 25 feet have A/C, but I don't
think any of the sailboats do (certainly none run on daily basis).

You may daysail, but you have a powerboat mentality.


Last charter I took ( Abaco, the Bahamas) the nightly argument was
whether to run the Genset and AC or not. I always argued against it.
Didn't always win. Determining if I can charter with those folks
again.

Nothing more irritating than pulling into a quiet cove setting up and
having some idiot come in later, and crank up a noisy genset so they
can run all their toys, including AC. Wonder why they didn't just
stay home.

Where I used to keep my boat, the marina charged a healthy surcharge
if you had and ran AC using their shore power.

I sail in an area that is much hotter than LIS. Never had an
uncomfortable night offshore without AC. Set the windscoops, opened
up the boat and sleeping great.

Never found the boat to uncomfortable to work on with opening ports,
hatches, windscoops, fans, etc. Of course, I'm fairly well work
hardened and not a marshmellow.

I haven't kept a boat there for about 8 years now, but when I did,
very few of the sailboats had gensets or AC. Maybe times have
changed. Well of course it has, that place ain't there no more.

Frank

Well, then every sailboat I've ever been on needs air conditioning.
I've never gone into a sailboat cabin on a 90+ degree day and found it
"cool." Sorry, you either like the heat or are full of crap.



Then you haven't been on many sailboats.


Yeah only the "hot" ones!

And we know that you've only
spent a few nights on the hook on a few boats.


Physics are physics. In the last half of the summer here we get great
nights and awful nights where AC is a nice thing to have. No boat is
going to be 70 degrees below when it's 90 topside.

We are talking about
night temps on a mooring, not daytime.

Actually, daytime is where the AC really is nice. I agree that most
nights are fine without it. But since we got it with the boat should we
NOT use it when it's hot and we're dockside?

After all, the point of going
out on a boat is to be outdoors, not huddled down below with the
genset and A/C running!

That's what camping is for. I go sailing because I like sailing.
Afterwards there's nothing fun about being uncomfortable on a boat due
to heat.

Why would you go
somewhere where you have to stay down below?

Well....I'll let you know soon. Thus far the AC's primary use has been
a nice cool place to eat or nap (for Thomas) after a afternoon sail.
Should we NOT run the AC if we're too hot?

And really, even in the midday heat, my forward cabins are cooler
than
the cockpit.

Water temps will often make it cooler below. But last week it was 100+
for several days. The only boats that were cool had AC. We went sailing
late on one of those days and were surprised to find some cool air.
Back at the slip it was in the low 90's and sweltering when we
returned. Were we wrong to turn on the AC then?


And before you bring up your kid as an excuse, remember that we
cruised with our daughter from the time she was 10 months old.

No excuse. We're careful about temps with kids because most folks
aren't. Do you know that Thomas has never had a cough or even the
sniffles?

why don't you have a dodger to protect your kid
from the Sun? Is it because the cockpit is too small?

We have a dodger and bimini. They are practically new and in storage in
the yard's loft. Thomas..which you can clearly see in the pics, is not
burned at all. He's well protected from the sun. I'll probably set the
dodger up next season though.


t may be because you have a lot of marina queens. The question is,
how many of them run the genset all night when they anchor?

Honestly, Jeff....probably very few. But it's a nice option.


I've said, in the midday sun the cabin and cockpit can heat up.

Nuff said....just like any boat.


help this, we've added tight mesh (Phifertex) over the large plexi
windows, and "surface skyscreens" on the hatches. This makes a huge
difference in how much the cabin heats up.
http://uk.oceanair.co.uk/da/10495


Good tip.


Bob, you're the idiot claiming that it would be horrific to anchor
out without A/C.

Never claimed that at all. I said SOME nights are horrific and you
agreed saying you saw a few days where it was oppressive. We're on the
same page there. The only difference is that we enjoy our AC and didn't
pay for it and we don't pay for electric either.


A bit, but I don't worry too much about that. However, A/C plus a
genset does start to add up on a catamaran.


Agreed...and on my boat as well. I'm still tempted if I can get one
cheap or for free though.


I'm a licensed A/C technician. Gauge set, tanks of refrigerant,
tools, etc. Its the family business.

So why not set up an AC for kicks? You could probably do a great job.
It will add to the value of the boat beyond it's cost if you don't pay
for the install. At ANY age it's better for you at dock, especially
when doing a boat project.


Actually, yes. As a retiree on a fixed income I've started looking
at
money differently. The cost, perhaps $5K or more to do my boat
properly, means $300 a year, for the rest of my life! Add the $420 my
marina charges for the electricity, and this becomes a substantial hit
given that we spend very limited time at the dock. If we lived on the
boat I might look at this differently!


Jeff, I appreciate your honesty on this point and I retract calling you
an idiot. The above point is quite valid. If you find your boat
pleasant enough, don't buy it. But remember, our boat had it installed
by the previous owner. He was older than you and liked spending time
aboard and found the AC worthwhile.



To nice to be comfortable on
really hot days when fixing that head of yours? You're courting a heat
stroke, dude.


The discussion is not about A/C at the dock for marina queens, its
about on a mooring, where cruisers like me spend most of our time.

On a mooring I MOSTLY agree with your points...but again, I won't turn
down a free genset. I like the boat toys and I see nothing wrong with
that, even if you want to call it a "powerboater mentality." My friend
with the Tayana 48 just installed a crazy Sat. TV system. He rarely
uses it, but he gets a kick out of the "toys" and it's his money.


You're claiming you need to add a genset to be comfortable on your
boat.

I've made no such claim. I simply said I was exploring the idea. We've
barely slept aboard this boat. We're still getting used to her, using
her as a big daysailor. We'll be doing some short cruises in the coming
weeks and then we'll judge. With temps starting to drop we may pass on
the whole genset idea. But a free one won't be turned away.


Obviously, your boat has terrible ventilation because almost
every boat I've cruised on is quite comfortable if the water is 75
degrees.

This is entirely subjective, Jeff. I have friends who are like you and
others who prefer it cooler. I've sailed a LOT of boats on a LOT of hot
days. I really have noted very little difference regarding temperature
between them...unless the boats were darker colors. I've never gone
inside a boat on a 95 degree day and found it pleasant...and I've been
in a lot of boats, Jeff. The air blowing threw the hatch was still 95
degrees....like a blow dryer to me.


Why don't you ask Neal if he needs A/C on his boat?

Now you're just being silly, Jeff.
It's beautiful here and almost chilly today. We're about to go for a
sail so I'm not in the mood for any more trolling.
Cheers, Jeff.


RB
35s5
NY

Frank,

Do you have screening on all your opening ports?




http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 13:21:19 -0700, (Thom Stewart)
wrote:

Frank,

Do you have screening on all your opening ports?


On all the boats I've owned in the past. My last boat didn't have
side opening ports, but I made velcro attached screens for the top
opening hatches and made a framed screen hatchboard for the
companionway. Also made a clamp on awning for the companionway slide
cover that extended about a foot out over the companionway so that you
could leave the screen hatch up in all but the worst rain storms.

Near the barrier islands (Ship, Cat, and Horn) where I spent most of
my overnights, the mosquitos are fairly bad year round.

Frank


http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

Sounded like a lot of fun until you get to the 6 other people on board.
What the heck were they doing all this time? Are you that much of a
tiller-hog??


Capt.Mooron wrote:
Playing cards for a while....

yeh, some of my best light air races were spent playing
cards down below.

.... It was really bad
weather and we had a long haul to make it to a secure harbour. I wouldn't
trust anyone at the helm in those conditions. One screw up might have placed
us in dire circumstances.

So? You could have screwed up yourself, especially from
fatigue after many hours unrelieved. IMHO times like these
are the best to teach helmsmanship... if the student is willing.

I've also had marginally-willing students suddenly try to
give me back the helm the instant before a big wave (or some
other form of disaster) was about to hit. Hate it when that
happens.


..... I only know a handful of sailors I would
trust to helm the boat in bad conditions while off watch.... none of them
were aboard at the time.


C'mon, 'Overproof' can't be that friggin' squirrelly and
hard-mouthed. Sounds like you're working to justify being a
tiller hog!



Sounds like mal-de-mer might have been a problem?


Nope..... a few shots of overproof rum cures mal de mer in a hurry.


Alcohol has the opposite effect on many, but it's also true
that whiskey (or other strong spirits) is whole medicine
cabinet in a single bottle!

DSK

DSK wrote:


I've also had marginally-willing students suddenly try to
give me back the helm the instant before a big wave (or some
other form of disaster) was about to hit. Hate it when that
happens.


No doubt..while training a Captain she insisted on taking a 225 ft
barge thru the Pelican Island Bridge near Galveston, has interesting
side currents and can get tricky...I agreed and waited just a bit to
long to take control, just as she jumpped back from the wheel screaming
take it. I tried like hell to get it up in time, but did a glancing
blow off the brand new fenders they just drove in. Sorry MF's claimed I
broke 3 of the pylons.... cost the company about 5 grand to fix...and
guess who had to accept the blame......

..... I only know a handful of sailors I would
trust to helm the boat in bad conditions while off watch.... none of them
were aboard at the time.


C'mon, 'Overproof' can't be that friggin' squirrelly and
hard-mouthed. Sounds like you're working to justify being a
tiller hog!

I don't know if it's the squirrelly part ..or not trusting your life
and the life of your passengers into the hands of a amature. I've had a
100 times I've been at the wheel for over 24 hrs straight in foul or
extreme conditions. Adreline and coffee can do wonderious things. But I
can relate to how good the hard bunk feels when you get to crash.

Joe


DSK