Thom,

I've answered your questions, with as much patience and civility as I can muster,
within the body of your message.

Cheers

CN


"Thom Stewart" wrote in message ...
OOps, Slipped

Have you ever heard of the "Bottle Nose Dolphin?

Of course, we have lots of them around there. They don't
come to a sharp point forward. They have this rounded nose
that very quickly turns into a bulbous head.

A Tuna; pointed head

I've seen many a tunny and have not seen any such point.


By the way CN, Have you never seen "Flying Fish?" If you ever sail
offshore in your part of the world, you might even see them on your boat
in the mornings.

Seen plenty of flying fish. They are quite numerous offshore in the blue
water of the Gulf Stream.


"Cut the Mustard" has as lousy an entry as just about anything short of
a scrows bow. You're wrong there as well

'Cut the Mustard' has a very standard entry for a cruising vessel - not to
fine and not too full. She is somewhere in the middle, perhaps toward
the full side of things. Her bow rises easily to the seas which results
in a dry ride which is an attribute to which any real cruising vessel
should aspire. Leave the fine entry to the racers who don't seem to
mind going through waves instead of over them.

But, entries and keels are two different things altogether so let's
not confuse the novices around here with too many variables. Let's
try to stick to the subject which is keel form.

Now;--- a keel, with WINGS. I say; "With wings!" CN. You really don't
have a clue to the pluses of a wing keel do you?

I am totally versed in the subject of wings. Wings as in aircraft wings,
bird wings and even bat wings. I know all about what makes them work
and what shape they need to be for different applications.

Your entire keel can be considered a wing. Those silly little appendages
on the end (end plates) are not wings any more than the wing tip feathers
on a hawk or eagle wing are wings. Look at any soaring bird and you will
note a splay of five or six feathers on their wing tips. These control the
wing tip vortex and break it up into several wing tip vortices which results
in increased efficiency because five or six small votices create less drag
than one big one.

Your silly, little end plates are a layman's attempt to control the keel tip
vortex. They are way too small to function as a wing. Your contention is
like saying flaps on an aircraft provide enough lift to fly the aircraft.
We all know they only serve to change the shape of the wing so at low
speeds the stall speed is raised. They do this at the expense of creating
greater drag, however.

Likewise, your silly little end plates on the bottom of your keel serve mostly
to increase drag. They are totally shaped incorrectly to control the votrex
to any significant extent and they are way too small to provide any noticable
lift. These are the facts. Believe them because they are correct. I know
of which I speak on this subject.

Open your Mind. They provide righting force without weight. Anyway you
want to figure it. Bernoulle or Newton. Think about it CN. I hope you
and I will discuss this in length. This give an upright position on the
sails for better sailing, with less trim required.

C'mon, sir, the only righting force they create is in your mind. Do a vector
diagrahm of the forces on your keel and in which direction the lift occurs
when your are beating. Try to remember since your keel is symetrical that
it is only the angle of attack of the keel that results in any lift being
produced at all. You will see these forces are almost parallel to
your silly little end plates. The end plates are simply oriented in the
wrong direction to even attempt to provide lift even if they were large
enough which they are not.

Also, in preventing Leeway, they have it all over your "Short peckered
Scheel Keel' When my boat heels my keel goes deeper, because of the Wing
pointing down at a location under the Hull.

Simply not so, sir! Leeway is counteracted by the lift the keel provides due
to the angle of attack. The angle of attack goes parallel to your silly little
end plates thus they produce NO increase in lift at all. They only create
more drag because of the wetted surface. The one thing they do is make
the tip vortex wrap a little tighter and somewhat decrease the drag of the
vortex. This is call the 'end plate effect'.

My Sheel keel shape accomplishes a similar result as your end plates but
it does it without adding the extra wetted surface. Consequently, drag is
decreased.

Yours is rotating out of the
water and to one side. Tripp was a good enough designer to give you a
rather narrow hull to ease the creation of weather helm. This is why he
had to increase wetted area.

So is your's rotating. Do you still think those silly little end plates when
they are rotated up with the keel are positioned so they actually increase
lift? Again, sir, do a vector diagrahm and learn the folly of your thinking.

Finally; If you look at the pictures of your boat out of the water and
mine, you will notice the positions of the mast to that of the keels.
Mine is in front of the Keel. Yours CN is over (above the Keel) I can
adjust my Mast, so as to change the effect of the position of the center
of effort of my sails to create a neutral helm. With your set-up you
can't.

Check your eyes, sir. My mast foot is fully two feet forward of the keel's
leading edge. Maybe the pictures don't show the true relationship because
they are not taken directly amidships. I know this to be a fact because I
have marked the position for the lift slings so the forward and aft slings
do not become fouled by the keel. As for moving the mast to balance
the center of effort and the center of lateral resistance, this is ludicrous.
A PROPERLY DESIGNED vessel will have the relationship fixed and her
sail plan engineered to accomodate this fixed position. That you mast
is movable tells me whomever engineered your vessel didn't know what
he was doing so he left an 'out' to correct his suspect design.

That should give enough information for you to figure a way to slant the
truth your way. FACTS IS FACTS buddy boy, Basic trim 101.

I have stated the facts and they contradict your, so-called facts. This
tells me that your facts are little more than speculation.

I do believe I have turned this Troll around on you. A good discussion
of misconception corrected by and OLD MAN (G)

Mister, you'd be lucky to turn around a flapjack on your griddle.
You've corrected nothing. Rather, you've provided me with a forum
to educate those who are woefully ignorant. You, being among them,
should thank me for giving you a free education.

You're welcome.

Capt. Neal

wrote in message ...
On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 20:39:34 -0500, Capt. Neal® wrote:

It was a little after Midnight. She was having some trouble with her e-mail
which somehow got messed up in the configuration. She gave me an alternate
so we could keep in touch.

I used to think she was a sock puppet of some sort. Boy, was I ever wrong.
She's a real, all-American conservative woman who thinks like I think. She's
intelligent as well - she's just sooooo fine. She's got the cutest Okie accent.
She's also very attractive looking. (She sent me a pic or two - don't tell Nav, he'll
be bright green with envy.) The very best thing is she will be available soon.

I think I'm in love.

CN


Break it to your right hand gently. It is going to be devastated after all these
years!

BB

What do you know about it, mister? Sounds to me like a wee bit of jealousy rearing its
ugly head.

CN

Overproof wrote in message
news:ZK4xd.3733$nN6.144@edtnps84...
Take a look at the AM Cup Racers.... do you see a bulbous nose on
any???....NO!

Do birds have really big heads.... no

Owls?

wrote in message
...
On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 23:12:18 -0500, Capt. Neal®
wrote:


wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 20:39:34 -0500, Capt. Neal®
wrote:

It was a little after Midnight. She was having some trouble with her
e-mail
which somehow got messed up in the configuration. She gave me an
alternate
so we could keep in touch.

I used to think she was a sock puppet of some sort. Boy, was I ever
wrong.
She's a real, all-American conservative woman who thinks like I think.
She's
intelligent as well - she's just sooooo fine. She's got the cutest Okie
accent.
She's also very attractive looking. (She sent me a pic or two - don't
tell Nav, he'll
be bright green with envy.) The very best thing is she will be
available soon.

I think I'm in love.

CN


Break it to your right hand gently. It is going to be devastated after
all these
years!

BB

What do you know about it, mister? Sounds to me like a wee bit of jealousy
rearing its
ugly head.

CN

I prefer women.

I insist on women. g

So CN,

Do you still think my Wing Keel is the silliest thing you've seen in a
while?

Do you understand its' function now?

Another question; Does a "Fine Entry" mean a clean, cut away Bow with
enough buoyance to slice through a chop cleanly and not pound on the
other side or as I understand you to say, a bow that rises on the wave
to stay dry? I think it is better to stay level rather than pounding. To
much forward buoyancy will produce a pounder. Do you agree?

I do have a Cruiser. Do you have a problem with a fast cruiser, with a
comfortable motion?

Ole Thom

Seriously, I have to wonder where some people got the
idea that LP was a dyke? I've seen a picture of her
and she is an attractive woman. I've heard her voice
and it is all estrogen.

Perhaps you, like Nav, are jealous?

CN


wrote in message ...
On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 23:12:18 -0500, Capt. Neal® wrote:


wrote in message ...
On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 20:39:34 -0500, Capt. Neal® wrote:

It was a little after Midnight. She was having some trouble with her e-mail
which somehow got messed up in the configuration. She gave me an alternate
so we could keep in touch.

I used to think she was a sock puppet of some sort. Boy, was I ever wrong.
She's a real, all-American conservative woman who thinks like I think. She's
intelligent as well - she's just sooooo fine. She's got the cutest Okie accent.
She's also very attractive looking. (She sent me a pic or two - don't tell Nav, he'll
be bright green with envy.) The very best thing is she will be available soon.

I think I'm in love.

CN


Break it to your right hand gently. It is going to be devastated after all these
years!

BB

What do you know about it, mister? Sounds to me like a wee bit of jealousy rearing its
ugly head.

CN

I prefer women.

BB

Why, you no good, overgrown, alcohol gulping, Nanu of the North,
pimply faced, shut-in, wannabe sailor!

Ole Thom's pilot house looks better than most because it is not
really a pilot house at all. If the man knew anything about boats
he would call it a 'raised saloon' cruiser.

What's so ludicrous about it is his original keel. It was a radical
racing keel on a cruiser. In other words the designer was confused -
as confused as the buyer. What Thom's boat amounts to is a state
of confusion. Perfect match for the likes of Ole Thom, BTW.

And, you are not thinking too clearly of late, yourself. Next thing
you, too, will be making up stories about my removing my keel
and fitting it back on well forward of it's original position.

How ludicrous! Whatever would motivate me to ruin perfection
with some lame, half-assed effort? As anyone can see from my
website, what I do and what I own in always top-notch.

Cut the Mustard sails circles around Overproof!

CN



"Overproof" wrote in message news:EA2xd.9204$dv1.4864@edtnps89...
I think you hit the nail on the head Thom.....

Your Pilot house is well suited for your area. The vessel looks good with it
and it extends your sailing season. Only a limp wristed tropical sailor
without experience of sailing in the colder latitudes and thusly with self
imposed limitations as to where he can venture would ever cast doubt as to
the functionality of a Pilot House on such a fine vessel. Let's face it...
he can't even differentiate between your keel and rudder yet.

I think it smacks of pure jealousy... on Neal's part. I'm certain that Cut
The Mustard would be a fine dinghy for your vessel. :-)

CM

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
Hey CN,

I'm up and a Very Good Morning to you and the ASA, from the NW

Thought I'd start the day off with a picture of the Pilothouse in her
Slip. I think she is a beauty but she's mine and that is a slanted view.
Likes get some comments from the group.

Did you have a chance yet to figure out how a "Wing Keel" functions?
I'll give you some time to work out your answer.

In the meantime, I'd like to state that I have as much stability and
less leeway than "Cut the Mustard" due to the depth of "Pneuma's" keel

Also less heel, giving me more effective sail area

Again, Good Morning

Ole Thom




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The old coot has yet to throw a punch that connected.

The man lives in a fantasy world of facts and figures
that people believed in fifty or sixty years ago. But,
times have changed and Ole Thom has failed to keep
up with them.

Everything he writes about has the smell of old and
obsolete.

CN


OzOne wrote in message ...

Careful Thom, kep thumping hum like that and you could damage your
hands....unless they're properly wrapped.


On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 19:12:51 -0800, (Thom Stewart)
scribbled thusly:

CN,

Yes, I did increase wetted area and yes I probably slowed it down. It
was taken into consideration.

Now, let's talk about the bulbous nose of the Submarine. The Shape of
the Nose was basically for CONTROL! The new power plants on the Subs
increase speed so much that the "BOW Plane operators could never
compensated for the asymmetries shape of the old hulls BUT my friend the
superstructure was made long and pointy and called a sail. They didn't
shape it like a ball!

The Bulbous Bows on Merchant Ship is something you've prove you haven't
a clue about, as pointed out by someone from the group. It is there to
create and control the BOW WAVE to stabilize the length the wave for
hull speed. Remember the KIWIS tried it with their bolt on bottom and
brought the stern wave aboard the hull.

We know you have never come to terms with Hull Speed and Wave Conformity
but they are related. Hull design 101 (Grin)

Ole Thom



Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

The only thing sillier than your modified keel was your
original keel. Your original was a racing appendage stuck
on a cruising boat. Just as silly as a farm tractor wheel
on a sports car.

You did change the keel to more match the intended
purpose of your boat with her raised salon design.
However, you decreased the efficiency of your keel
and you moved the center of resistance aft. Hello,
weather helm.

As for the little endplates - cosmetic at best and
additional drag at worse.

Sail a cruiser with a Scheel keel and experience the
best compromise yet to be invented for a cruiser.

CN


"Thom Stewart" wrote in message ...
So CN,

Do you still think my Wing Keel is the silliest thing you've seen in a
while?

Do you understand its' function now?

Another question; Does a "Fine Entry" mean a clean, cut away Bow with
enough buoyance to slice through a chop cleanly and not pound on the
other side or as I understand you to say, a bow that rises on the wave
to stay dry? I think it is better to stay level rather than pounding. To
much forward buoyancy will produce a pounder. Do you agree?

I do have a Cruiser. Do you have a problem with a fast cruiser, with a
comfortable motion?

Ole Thom

LP is a dyke? Who believes that?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...


Seriously, I have to wonder where some people got the
idea that LP was a dyke? I've seen a picture of her
and she is an attractive woman. I've heard her voice
and it is all estrogen.

Perhaps you, like Nav, are jealous?

CN


wrote in message
...
On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 23:12:18 -0500, Capt. Neal®
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 20:39:34 -0500, Capt. Neal®
wrote:

It was a little after Midnight. She was having some trouble with her
e-mail
which somehow got messed up in the configuration. She gave me an
alternate
so we could keep in touch.

I used to think she was a sock puppet of some sort. Boy, was I ever
wrong.
She's a real, all-American conservative woman who thinks like I
think. She's
intelligent as well - she's just sooooo fine. She's got the cutest
Okie accent.
She's also very attractive looking. (She sent me a pic or two - don't
tell Nav, he'll
be bright green with envy.) The very best thing is she will be
available soon.

I think I'm in love.

CN


Break it to your right hand gently. It is going to be devastated after
all these
years!

BB

What do you know about it, mister? Sounds to me like a wee bit of
jealousy rearing its
ugly head.

CN

I prefer women.

BB