http://community-2.webtv.net/tassail.../captureD4.jpg

Talk about having no lateral stability. Look at the keel and note how it is only
about two or three feet in width. It must track like a squirrelly race boat.

Then notice the inefficient end plates that fail to take into account the fact
that having them commence at the leading edge of the rudder is causing more
drag then if they were placed toward the aft side of the keel.

Funny how some people seem to think they can guess better than an engineer
can design.

CN

Ok CN,

I'll play with you for a little bit. By the way' what the hell are you
doing up this late or early in the morning? Having trouble with that
"Tin Can" cabin heater already?

Anyway, I seem to remember a boat with a very similar 'funny looking'
keel was the first boat to end a 150 year reign of American Cup
domination.

Those aren't end plates, Dopey! There Wings. Look at their shape again
and try to figure the action of a Wing Keel.

I'm going to bed now. So, you'll have time to think about the action of
a "Wing Keel"

Also, think about the comparison of the Entry of my boat and the
Bulbous, knuckle shape bow and leading blunt edge of that forward placed
Keel on your Tub, Then we'll talk about helm action.

Good nite Salty ( make believe) I'll read your reply in the AM

Ole Thom

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message ...
Ok CN,

I'll play with you for a little bit. By the way' what the hell are you
doing up this late or early in the morning? Having trouble with that
"Tin Can" cabin heater already?

The cabin heater is working fine. To tell you the truth I was up waiting
for a call from someone even hotter than my famous cabin heater - Lady
Pilot to be exact. Don't tell Moroon though or he might get jealous.


Anyway, I seem to remember a boat with a very similar 'funny looking'
keel was the first boat to end a 150 year reign of American Cup
domination.

On a race boat such a keel is de rigeur but on a pilot house cruising
boat it is out of place. It compares to putting some of those old
Cadillac tail fins on a modern-day Corvette.

Those aren't end plates, Dopey! There Wings. Look at their shape again
and try to figure the action of a Wing Keel.

Wings??? Sorry old chap, but they function as end plates to control
the vortex. Even when they are installed on a 747 they are called end
plates. (or some call them winglets.)


I'm going to bed now. So, you'll have time to think about the action of
a "Wing Keel"

Also, think about the comparison of the Entry of my boat and the
Bulbous, knuckle shape bow and leading blunt edge of that forward placed
Keel on your Tub, Then we'll talk about helm action.

Dopey! Think about what a shark or a porpoise - some of the fastest
animals in the water looks like. It is bulbous and it goes quite fast.


The fiction about slim being better at sea is just that fiction. Ever look
beneath the water on an oceangoing ship. Most likely you will see a
bulbous looking thing. If a sharp entry was so great they would not
bother with the bulb.

Savvy kimosabe?

CN

"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...

The cabin heater is working fine. To tell you the truth I was up
waiting
for a call from someone even hotter than my famous cabin heater -
Lady
Pilot to be exact. Don't tell Moroon though or he might get jealous.


So, what time did she finally call?

Scotty (Nav will be sooooo jealous)

It was a little after Midnight. She was having some trouble with her e-mail
which somehow got messed up in the configuration. She gave me an alternate
so we could keep in touch.

I used to think she was a sock puppet of some sort. Boy, was I ever wrong.
She's a real, all-American conservative woman who thinks like I think. She's
intelligent as well - she's just sooooo fine. She's got the cutest Okie accent.
She's also very attractive looking. (She sent me a pic or two - don't tell Nav, he'll
be bright green with envy.) The very best thing is she will be available soon.

I think I'm in love.

CN



"Scott Vernon" wrote in message ...

"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...

The cabin heater is working fine. To tell you the truth I was up
waiting
for a call from someone even hotter than my famous cabin heater -
Lady
Pilot to be exact. Don't tell Moroon though or he might get jealous.


So, what time did she finally call?

Scotty (Nav will be sooooo jealous)

"Capt. Neal®" wrote:
It was a little after Midnight. She was having some trouble with her
e-mail
which somehow got messed up in the configuration. She gave me an alternate
so we could keep in touch.

Tsk, tsk!

I used to think she was a sock puppet of some sort. Boy, was I ever wrong.
She's a real, all-American conservative woman who thinks like I think.
She's
intelligent as well - she's just sooooo fine. She's got the cutest Okie
accent.
She's also very attractive looking. (She sent me a pic or two - don't tell
Nav, he'll
be bright green with envy.)

You are hilarious! Should I be flattered or upset?

The very best thing is she will be available soon.

Yeah, as soon as I get out of this orange jumpsuit behind the bars. hehee

I think I'm in love.

blush

LP

OOps, Slipped

Have you ever heard of the "Bottle Nose Dolphin?

A Tuna; pointed head

By the way CN, Have you never seen "Flying Fish?" If you ever sail
offshore in your part of the world, you might even see them on your boat
in the mornings.

"Cut the Mustard" has as lousy an entry as just about anything short of
a scrows bow. You're wrong there as well

Now;--- a keel, with WINGS. I say; "With wings!" CN. You really don't
have a clue to the pluses of a wing keel do you?
Open your Mind. They provide righting force without weight. Anyway you
want to figure it. Bernoulle or Newton. Think about it CN. I hope you
and I will discuss this in length. This give an upright position on the
sails for better sailing, with less trim required.

Also, in preventing Leeway, they have it all over your "Short peckered
Scheel Keel' When my boat heels my keel goes deeper, because of the Wing
pointing down at a location under the Hull. Yours is rotating out of the
water and to one side. Tripp was a good enough designer to give you a
rather narrow hull to ease the creation of weather helm. This is why he
had to increase wetted area.

Finally; If you look at the pictures of your boat out of the water and
mine, you will notice the positions of the mast to that of the keels.
Mine is in front of the Keel. Yours CN is over (above the Keel) I can
adjust my Mast, so as to change the effect of the position of the center
of effort of my sails to create a neutral helm. With your set-up you
can't.

That should give enough information for you to figure a way to slant the
truth your way. FACTS IS FACTS buddy boy, Basic trim 101.

I do believe I have turned this Troll around on you. A good discussion
of misconception corrected by and OLD MAN (G)

Your move

Ole Thom

Thom,

I've answered your questions, with as much patience and civility as I can muster,
within the body of your message.

Cheers

CN


"Thom Stewart" wrote in message ...
OOps, Slipped

Have you ever heard of the "Bottle Nose Dolphin?

Of course, we have lots of them around there. They don't
come to a sharp point forward. They have this rounded nose
that very quickly turns into a bulbous head.

A Tuna; pointed head

I've seen many a tunny and have not seen any such point.


By the way CN, Have you never seen "Flying Fish?" If you ever sail
offshore in your part of the world, you might even see them on your boat
in the mornings.

Seen plenty of flying fish. They are quite numerous offshore in the blue
water of the Gulf Stream.


"Cut the Mustard" has as lousy an entry as just about anything short of
a scrows bow. You're wrong there as well

'Cut the Mustard' has a very standard entry for a cruising vessel - not to
fine and not too full. She is somewhere in the middle, perhaps toward
the full side of things. Her bow rises easily to the seas which results
in a dry ride which is an attribute to which any real cruising vessel
should aspire. Leave the fine entry to the racers who don't seem to
mind going through waves instead of over them.

But, entries and keels are two different things altogether so let's
not confuse the novices around here with too many variables. Let's
try to stick to the subject which is keel form.

Now;--- a keel, with WINGS. I say; "With wings!" CN. You really don't
have a clue to the pluses of a wing keel do you?

I am totally versed in the subject of wings. Wings as in aircraft wings,
bird wings and even bat wings. I know all about what makes them work
and what shape they need to be for different applications.

Your entire keel can be considered a wing. Those silly little appendages
on the end (end plates) are not wings any more than the wing tip feathers
on a hawk or eagle wing are wings. Look at any soaring bird and you will
note a splay of five or six feathers on their wing tips. These control the
wing tip vortex and break it up into several wing tip vortices which results
in increased efficiency because five or six small votices create less drag
than one big one.

Your silly, little end plates are a layman's attempt to control the keel tip
vortex. They are way too small to function as a wing. Your contention is
like saying flaps on an aircraft provide enough lift to fly the aircraft.
We all know they only serve to change the shape of the wing so at low
speeds the stall speed is raised. They do this at the expense of creating
greater drag, however.

Likewise, your silly little end plates on the bottom of your keel serve mostly
to increase drag. They are totally shaped incorrectly to control the votrex
to any significant extent and they are way too small to provide any noticable
lift. These are the facts. Believe them because they are correct. I know
of which I speak on this subject.

Open your Mind. They provide righting force without weight. Anyway you
want to figure it. Bernoulle or Newton. Think about it CN. I hope you
and I will discuss this in length. This give an upright position on the
sails for better sailing, with less trim required.

C'mon, sir, the only righting force they create is in your mind. Do a vector
diagrahm of the forces on your keel and in which direction the lift occurs
when your are beating. Try to remember since your keel is symetrical that
it is only the angle of attack of the keel that results in any lift being
produced at all. You will see these forces are almost parallel to
your silly little end plates. The end plates are simply oriented in the
wrong direction to even attempt to provide lift even if they were large
enough which they are not.

Also, in preventing Leeway, they have it all over your "Short peckered
Scheel Keel' When my boat heels my keel goes deeper, because of the Wing
pointing down at a location under the Hull.

Simply not so, sir! Leeway is counteracted by the lift the keel provides due
to the angle of attack. The angle of attack goes parallel to your silly little
end plates thus they produce NO increase in lift at all. They only create
more drag because of the wetted surface. The one thing they do is make
the tip vortex wrap a little tighter and somewhat decrease the drag of the
vortex. This is call the 'end plate effect'.

My Sheel keel shape accomplishes a similar result as your end plates but
it does it without adding the extra wetted surface. Consequently, drag is
decreased.

Yours is rotating out of the
water and to one side. Tripp was a good enough designer to give you a
rather narrow hull to ease the creation of weather helm. This is why he
had to increase wetted area.

So is your's rotating. Do you still think those silly little end plates when
they are rotated up with the keel are positioned so they actually increase
lift? Again, sir, do a vector diagrahm and learn the folly of your thinking.

Finally; If you look at the pictures of your boat out of the water and
mine, you will notice the positions of the mast to that of the keels.
Mine is in front of the Keel. Yours CN is over (above the Keel) I can
adjust my Mast, so as to change the effect of the position of the center
of effort of my sails to create a neutral helm. With your set-up you
can't.

Check your eyes, sir. My mast foot is fully two feet forward of the keel's
leading edge. Maybe the pictures don't show the true relationship because
they are not taken directly amidships. I know this to be a fact because I
have marked the position for the lift slings so the forward and aft slings
do not become fouled by the keel. As for moving the mast to balance
the center of effort and the center of lateral resistance, this is ludicrous.
A PROPERLY DESIGNED vessel will have the relationship fixed and her
sail plan engineered to accomodate this fixed position. That you mast
is movable tells me whomever engineered your vessel didn't know what
he was doing so he left an 'out' to correct his suspect design.

That should give enough information for you to figure a way to slant the
truth your way. FACTS IS FACTS buddy boy, Basic trim 101.

I have stated the facts and they contradict your, so-called facts. This
tells me that your facts are little more than speculation.

I do believe I have turned this Troll around on you. A good discussion
of misconception corrected by and OLD MAN (G)

Mister, you'd be lucky to turn around a flapjack on your griddle.
You've corrected nothing. Rather, you've provided me with a forum
to educate those who are woefully ignorant. You, being among them,
should thank me for giving you a free education.

You're welcome.

Capt. Neal

"Capt. Neal®" wrote:

The cabin heater is working fine. To tell you the truth I was up waiting
for a call from someone even hotter than my famous cabin heater - Lady
Pilot to be exact. Don't tell Moroon though or he might get jealous.

Hey now! How much more personal details have you been telling? :-)
I don't think Moroon will be jealous...I'm sure he has one or more women
tied up somewhere, he won't even notice. lol

LP

A man doesn't disrespect his woman by revealing personal detail.
What I wrote was the truth, Mam, just the truth . . .

As for Moroon, the ONLY way that weenie could keep a real woman
interested for more than a few minutes would be to get her drunk and
lock all the doors.

As for me, I prefer what we share - the strongest tie of all - love, real
love.

CN

"Lady Pilot" wrote in message news:qyQxd.19397$F25.1505@okepread07...

"Capt. Neal®" wrote:

The cabin heater is working fine. To tell you the truth I was up waiting
for a call from someone even hotter than my famous cabin heater - Lady
Pilot to be exact. Don't tell Moroon though or he might get jealous.

Hey now! How much more personal details have you been telling? :-)
I don't think Moroon will be jealous...I'm sure he has one or more women
tied up somewhere, he won't even notice. lol

LP