JAXAshby wrote:
KP did require (as of at least 10 years ago) and may still require coursework
to graduate that includes Lunar Distances.

I find that hard to believe in any context other than as a historical
side note. It is not required for a license. Please feel free to show
the course which includes full instruction on Lunar Distance and
requirements for a candidate for 3rd Mate to know this.

I didn't learn of chronometers or Lunar Distances by googling. I knew of each
before google came into existence.

Ok, so before "Google" you used "Funknwaggle".

Chronometers were damned expensive until mid 19th century and still had
temperature compensation problems until well into the 20th century. These
problems were eventually solved with the introduction of consumer electric
watches. Lunars were still commonly used on commercial vessels (as opposed to
military vessels) until about 150 years ago. The need for celestial nav at all
started to go away by the early 1920's when radio navigation started to come
online with commercial radio stations, which were required to give their call
letters, the city of transmission and frequency every ten minutes.

BG Where do you find this stuff?

Mechanical chronometers will always have some degree of "compensation"
problems, but it wasn't a "problem", once the "time tick" became readily
available.
In some areas, I don't doubt you can find individuals using "Lunars",
into the last century as part of their celestial navigation.
Celestial did not start to disappear in use until the advent of Sat Nav,
which was in the 80's, not 20's.
The use of RDF, Loran, Decca, etc., preceded this, but because of
limited range, accuracy,reliability, etc., it did not really affect the
GLOBAL use of celestial which predominated until the late eighties,
early nineties.

otn

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 12:27:54 +1100, OzOne wrote:

On 24 Feb 2004 01:16:39 GMT, (JAXAshby) scribbled
thusly:

I was a professional motor mechanic starting the summer before 7th grade (my
father owned the place).

Yeah, OK Jocks...and what was the degree which allowed you to become a
motor mechanic?


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

So what was the degree Jocks?

You should be asking him if Sally Struther's name appears on his
"diploma" Have you ever noticed how jax always argues in the
general but avoids the specific like the plague?


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

I used to think that using lunars was common until radio time signals finally
eliminated issues about chronometer expense and accuracy around 1912. Then I
came across a tutorial written about 1890 which complained that although the
technique of lunar distances was still taught, they were considered too tedious
by most seamen and had pretty much fallen into disuse.

Jax is probably correct that it was little used around 1800. Even after
Bowditch was published in 1802 there were very few seamen who could handle the
math.

I believe there is a minor resurgence now that most computer programs will
handle the nasty math.



"otnmbrd" wrote in message
ink.net...


JAXAshby wrote:
otn, you just explained why celestial navigation is worthless. you also
explained why celestial navigation as the term is used does not include
Lunar
Distances.

btw, Lunar Distances were in common use on most ships until about the middle
of
the 19th century, not the beginning.

Oops .... got my centuries wrong.(meant to say not living prior to the
20th century) Actually, Lunar distances were used to some degree,
through the 19th century, but the need for them became academic, once
the chronometer was readily available.
As for celestial being worthless, I will admit, to someone such as
yourself, who has never learned to use it and/or become proficient in
it's use, it is useless, coupled with the fact, that as "galley boy",
you'd never have the need.
It is, however, included in "celestial navigation", since, once again,
it involves sights of celestial bodies (or are you also unaware of the
methods used to obtain the basic information used in lunar distances?).

Go back to googling, Jax .... as always,the response to your responses
quickly become exercises in talking to a brain dead Cocker Spaniel (My
apologies to the Cocker Spaniel owners out there).

otn

On 24 Feb 2004 00:38:25 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

you found one. now, just where is that course given and just how much time is
given to Lunar Distances and just how many people on the planet who know
"celestial navigation" even know that an accurate timepiece is not required?

felton, you are a sophist, a term for a sophomore poly sci major of limited
intelligence trying to explain to the girls why he couldn't get in engineering
college.

An evasive and inaccurate reply. I detect a pattern. The point under
discussion was whether or not "Lunar Distances" is a form of Celestial
Navigation. Your original claim was that it was not. You may not
remember that, as you seem to suffer from both memory and
comprehension "challenges".

Although this was not an area of study for me, I did learn to research
answers to questions. Now my approach was to first consult my handy
copy of The American Navigator by Bowditch, which defines, on page
one, paragraph two, celestial navigation as:

"Celestial navigation, as it is known today, had to await acquisiton
of information regarding the motions of the heavenly bodies, although
these bodies were used to steer by almost from the beginning."

The lunar distance method was discussed relative to the history of
navigation. It is probably no longer taught, because it is a matter
of historical interest without current applicability. That does not
disqualify it's inclusion as a form of celestial navigation.

Really, is English a second language for you?





dougies, until I posted you had never even heard of the term "Lunar
Distances"
and now you are claiming to be an expert.

wanna show us just which "celestial navigation" course taught just where it
is
that includes Lunar Distances as part of the corriculum?

"Practice with "lunars" is certainly an aerobatic flight in the world
of celestial navigation, but those who do it become the very best
celestial navigators, in part because very precise sights are requried
as well as careful analysis"

http://www.starpath.com/catalog/books/1875.htm

If you could navigate to the google page, you will find many of them


JAXAshby wrote:

no, "celestial" as the term is used means to use an accurate timepiece.
Lunar
distances needs no timepiece at all, let alone an accurate one.

Sorry, Jax... wrong again. You should be proud of your perfect record.

"Celestial" navigation means to use "celestial" bodies. And the lunar
distance is a method of telling time, making the "celestial" bodies
themselves a timepiece. So you are doubly wrong. Your mom would be so
proud!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Doug,

The Navigator on the "Bounty" used moon time. That was a few years
before Harrison's Time piece.

It would be very, very interesting to hear the Jax's explanation of
taking the moon's sighting and the calculations into Longitude, don't
you think?

Ole Thom

A few small points after some research - In the 1886 edition of Bowditch it
recommends using Lunar Distances on occasion to check the accuracy of the
chronometer, but not as the primary method of determining Longitude. The
original 1802 edition considers it superior method for determining longitude.
One problem, however, is that it requires 3 simultaneous sights (distance
between, and the altitudes of two bodies), which implies 4 people working
together. It is possible for one person to do it, but the mathematics becomes
much more tedious.


"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
I used to think that using lunars was common until radio time signals finally
eliminated issues about chronometer expense and accuracy around 1912. Then I
came across a tutorial written about 1890 which complained that although the
technique of lunar distances was still taught, they were considered too
tedious
by most seamen and had pretty much fallen into disuse.

Jax is probably correct that it was little used around 1800. Even after
Bowditch was published in 1802 there were very few seamen who could handle the
math.

I believe there is a minor resurgence now that most computer programs will
handle the nasty math.



"otnmbrd" wrote in message
ink.net...


JAXAshby wrote:
otn, you just explained why celestial navigation is worthless. you also
explained why celestial navigation as the term is used does not include
Lunar
Distances.

btw, Lunar Distances were in common use on most ships until about the
middle
of
the 19th century, not the beginning.

Oops .... got my centuries wrong.(meant to say not living prior to the
20th century) Actually, Lunar distances were used to some degree,
through the 19th century, but the need for them became academic, once
the chronometer was readily available.
As for celestial being worthless, I will admit, to someone such as
yourself, who has never learned to use it and/or become proficient in
it's use, it is useless, coupled with the fact, that as "galley boy",
you'd never have the need.
It is, however, included in "celestial navigation", since, once again,
it involves sights of celestial bodies (or are you also unaware of the
methods used to obtain the basic information used in lunar distances?).

Go back to googling, Jax .... as always,the response to your responses
quickly become exercises in talking to a brain dead Cocker Spaniel (My
apologies to the Cocker Spaniel owners out there).

otn

Jeff Morris wrote:
I used to think that using lunars was common until radio time signals finally
eliminated issues about chronometer expense and accuracy around 1912. Then I
came across a tutorial written about 1890 which complained that although the
technique of lunar distances was still taught, they were considered too tedious
by most seamen and had pretty much fallen into disuse.

Jax is probably correct that it was little used around 1800. Even after
Bowditch was published in 1802 there were very few seamen who could handle the
math.

I believe there is a minor resurgence now that most computer programs will
handle the nasty math.

G Think you just pulled an "otn". I think it was extensively used
around 1800, but had fallen to a point of much less use by 1900.
The advent of the radio as standard equipment on ships and the use of
the "time tick", should have been it's final end.
If it should have a minor resurgence today, it will only be as one that
some "purist" will use, as long as his computer batteries last.
It would take someone with an interest in research, but I think you'll
find the governing factor regarding the decline of "Lunar's" was the
common use of the chronometer, not the "time tick" ..... the time tick
just made the chronometer more reliable.

otn

BAILIFF(Spoken)
Mr. Flynn, his honor is here

BILLY(Spoken)
Thank you. Just a moment.
You ready?

ROXIE(Spoken)
Oh Billy, I'm scared.

BILLY(Spoken)
Roxie, you got nothing to worry about.
It's all a circus, kid. A three ring circus.
These trials- the wholeworld- all show business.
But kid, you're working with a star, the biggest!

(Singing)
Give 'em the old razzle dazzle
Razzle Dazzle 'em
Give 'em an act with lots of flash in it
And the reaction will be passionate
Give 'em the old hocus pocus
Bead and feather 'em
How can they see with sequins in their eyes?

What if your hinges all are rusting?
What if, in fact, you're just disgusting?

Razzle dazzle 'em
And they;ll never catch wise!

Give 'em the old

BILLY AND COMPANY
Razzle dazzle 'em
Give 'em a show that's so splendiferous

BILLY
Row after row will crow vociferous

BILLY AND COMPANY
Give 'em the old flim flam flummox
Fool and fracture 'em

BILLY
How can they hear the truth above the roar?

BILLY AND COMPANY
Throw 'em a fake and a finagle
They'll never know you're just a bagel,

BILLY
Razzle dazzle 'em
And they'll beg you for more!

BILLY AND COMPANY
Give 'em the old razzle dazzle
Razzle Dazzle 'em
Back since the days of old Methuselah
Everyone loves the big bambooz-a-ler

Give 'em the old three ring circus
Stun and stagger 'em
When you're in trouble, go into your dance

Though you are stiffer than a girder
They let you get away with murder
Razzle dazzle 'em
And you've got a romance

Give 'em the old
Razzle Dazzle

BILLY
Razzle dazzle 'em
Give 'em an act that's unassailable
They'll wait a year 'till you're available!

BILLY AND COMPANY
Give 'em the old
Double whammy

BILLY
Daze and dizzy'em
Show 'em the first rate sorcerer you are

BILLY AND COMPANY
Long as you keep 'em way off balance
How can they spot you got no talents?

BILLY
Razzle dazzle 'em

COMPANY
Razzle dazzle 'em

BILLY
Razzle dazzle 'em

BILLY AND COMPANY
And they'll make you a star!

OzOne wrote in message ...
On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 02:51:38 GMT, felton
scribbled thusly:


An evasive and inaccurate reply. I detect a pattern.

Ahh the story of Jocks life
"Give em the old razzle dazzle"

Give 'Em The Old Razzle-Dazzle
by Sarah E Edgson

Any sexual fantasy involving such assorted paraphenalia as washing-up
liquid, a blender, and a bichon frise just doesn't quite cut the
mustard with me.
http://www.write101.com/lust.htm

He's learned from experts

THEY DANCE, THEY SPIN: Ari lets it all hang out as he sums up his time
with the Bush administration.

"We just give 'em the old flim flam flummox," bellowed Rumsfeld, "Fool
and fracture 'em. How can they hear the truth above the roar? Throw
'em a fake and a finagle. They'll never know you're just a bagel.
Razzle dazzle 'em. And they'll beg you for more!"

The Press Secretary was then queried about how it is that President
Bush's popularity is still so high. Fleischer directed the press
corps' eyes to a T.V. screen where President Bush spoke via satellite.

"Back since the days of old Methuselah, everyone loves the big
bambooz-a-ler. Give 'em the old three-ring circus. Stun and stagger
'em. When you're in trouble, go into your dance. Though you are
stiffer than a girder, they let ya get away with a murder. Razzle
dazzle 'em, and you've got a romance. Give 'em an act that's
unassailable. They'll wait four years 'til you're available!"

Asked about the steady erosion of civil liberties, Bush responded,
"Just give 'em the old double whammy. Daze and dizzy 'em, show 'em the
first rate sorcerer you are. Long as you keep 'em way off balance, how
can they spot you got no talents? Razzle dazzle 'em and they'll make
you a star!"
http://www.lalatimes.com/Issue7/razzle.html


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

"otnmbrd" wrote in message news:Hgz_b.5818
G Think you just pulled an "otn". I think it was extensively used
around 1800, but had fallen to a point of much less use by 1900.

You're right in the sense of "anyone who really needs to know the longitude, or
correct time, uses Lunar distances." However, I suspect that the vast majority
of mariners simply found their latitude, and went east or west from there.

It was only 30 years earlier the Captain Cook used Lunar Distances and was
hailed as a great surveyor for his accomplishments. His work was based on
Maskelyne's lunar distance methods which were published in 1762.

Fort Schuyler, right on City Island, New York.
The New York State Merchant Marine Academy. A member of SUNY.

You already knew that as you moored your boat there. Remember when you
towed Nutsy home G That was when he had the Pearson

Remember Nutsy :^) That was before he got his Sailfish.

That was in the days when you had to use shackles on the Dock cleats for
mooring lines

Where was the Jax living then? That I can't seem to remember. Must be
old age but you younger guys should remember.

Remember you used to drive from Kew Gardens to Brooklyn to pick up one
of your female crew. What was that on the Beltway, 30 miles round trip
and another to drop her off.

Those were the days of the Lesbians!! I guess Susy straighten that out

Was it you or Jax that did the valve jobs on the cars in the back yard.
It was one of you.

I'll sign off now but we'll travel down memory lane so more later.

Ole Thom