On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 22:12:14 -0500, "Jeff Morris"
wrote:

BAILIFF(Spoken)
Mr. Flynn, his honor is here

snip

Must be a regional thing. For some reason, virtually all of Jax's
"replies" have me recalling the great musical "The Best Little
Whorehouse in Texas". No one does the "sidestep" more than Jax...


"Ooh I love to dance a little sidestep, now they see me now they
don't-
I've come and gone and, ooh I love to sweep around the wide step,
cut a little swathe and lead the people on.

Ooh I love to dance a little sidestep...

And, ooh I love to sweep around the wide step...

Cut a little swathe and lead the people on."

For those who didn't see it, that was from the great scene where the
Texas Governor, played by Charles Durning, dances around
straightforward questions by "doing a little sidestep".

Wow. Some things are timeless

All my KP trained deck officers can do celestial, it's still required for
professional sea officers, and the course work still includes lunar
distances. What's the issue? Celestial isn't all that difficult. Most of
the Bo's'ns and a good many of the experienced AB's can do celestial. Hell
.. .Ole Thom does the latitudes with his knuckles. It only wants a little
effort.

M.


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
KP did require (as of at least 10 years ago) and may still require
coursework
to graduate that includes Lunar Distances.

I didn't learn of chronometers or Lunar Distances by googling. I knew of
each
before google came into existence.

Chronometers were damned expensive until mid 19th century and still had
temperature compensation problems until well into the 20th century. These
problems were eventually solved with the introduction of consumer electric
watches. Lunars were still commonly used on commercial vessels (as
opposed to
military vessels) until about 150 years ago. The need for celestial nav
at all
started to go away by the early 1920's when radio navigation started to
come
online with commercial radio stations, which were required to give their
call
letters, the city of transmission and frequency every ten minutes.

not one of you guys thought to check King's Point. There may be other
places
that teach Lunar Distances, but I have never heard of which. It is a
skill
obsolete since the middle of the 19th century when chronometers because
cheap
enough to become ubiquitous.



Didn't check and won't check. If KP teaches "Lunar Distances", it will
be as an exercise in history, not as a license necessity.
BTW, it was not a question of chronometers becoming cheap enough .... it
was a question of them becoming reliable enough to be used on a
shipboard environment..... You still need to learn to do more in depth
"Google" searches, before you try to write as if you are an expert.

you are right, over the knee. 18th century technology is still superior to
20th century technology, let alone that scummy 21st century technology.

btw, where did you say you found a course in celestial nav that included lunars
distances as well??

otn, you just explained why celestial navigation is worthless. you also
explained why celestial navigation as the term is used does not include
Lunar
Distances.

btw, Lunar Distances were in common use on most ships until about the
middle of
the 19th century, not the beginning.

Oops .... got my centuries wrong.(meant to say not living prior to the
20th century) Actually, Lunar distances were used to some degree,
through the 19th century, but the need for them became academic, once
the chronometer was readily available.
As for celestial being worthless, I will admit, to someone such as
yourself, who has never learned to use it and/or become proficient in
it's use, it is useless, coupled with the fact, that as "galley boy",
you'd never have the need.
It is, however, included in "celestial navigation", since, once again,
it involves sights of celestial bodies (or are you also unaware of the
methods used to obtain the basic information used in lunar distances?).

Go back to googling, Jax .... as always,the response to your responses
quickly become exercises in talking to a brain dead Cocker Spaniel (My
apologies to the Cocker Spaniel owners out there).

otn

Jax is probably correct that it was little used around 1800.

I understand what did lunars in was the more affordable chronometer by about
the mid 19th century.

Even after
Bowditch was published in 1802 there were very few seamen who could handle
the
math.

I understand the math is tedious, more particularly so before machines made
multiplying and dividing easier (1890's, early 1900's).

Commercial radio stations came on the air in 1921 (IIRC) and were required to
give their call sign, frequency and city every ten minutes specificly to aid
ships at sea in navigation. This radio required lasted (I believe) into the
1980's by which time it was more than thoroughly obsolete.

The point under
discussion was whether or not "Lunar Distances" is a form of Celestial
Navigation. Your original claim was that it was not.

I stand by that claim, as the term "Celestial Navigation" is used to today and
as the craft is taught today.

if you wanna dig up 200 year references to prove your point today, well you
have merely also proven my statement that you are a sophist.

old fart, Fort Schuyler is not on City Island, and neither is the MMA, which is
not the same as King's Point, which is across the bay from the MMA.

I did not and do not moor my boat at either MMA or KP, and have never anchored
near either, though I have sailed by each many times.

I have never towed any boat home, not even my dinghy.

I donot shackle dock lines to anything.

old fart, you are smashed. again.

Fort Schuyler, right on City Island, New York.
The New York State Merchant Marine Academy. A member of SUNY.

You already knew that as you moored your boat there. Remember when you
towed Nutsy home G That was when he had the Pearson

Remember Nutsy :^) That was before he got his Sailfish.

That was in the days when you had to use shackles on the Dock cleats for
mooring lines

Where was the Jax living then? That I can't seem to remember. Must be
old age but you younger guys should remember.

Remember you used to drive from Kew Gardens to Brooklyn to pick up one
of your female crew. What was that on the Beltway, 30 miles round trip
and another to drop her off.

Those were the days of the Lesbians!! I guess Susy straighten that out

Was it you or Jax that did the valve jobs on the cars in the back yard.
It was one of you.

I'll sign off now but we'll travel down memory lane so more later.

Ole Thom

On 24 Feb 2004 14:43:29 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

The point under
discussion was whether or not "Lunar Distances" is a form of Celestial
Navigation. Your original claim was that it was not.

I stand by that claim, as the term "Celestial Navigation" is used to today and
as the craft is taught today.

I provided a definition of Celestial Navigation by quoting the 1984
Edition of Bowditch. Do you have any support for *your* definition
other than "in your opinion"? If you want to proclaim your
unsupported opinions as fact, then it is unlikely that anyone will
take you seriously. I certainly won't waste the time and effort
merely to prove you wrong, I'll just assume it like everyone else
around here.

From now on, "show your work" or no partial credit.


if you wanna dig up 200 year references to prove your point today, well you
have merely also proven my statement that you are a sophist.

otn, the info regarding KP and lunar distances came from a then recent graduate
of KP.

way before google, in fact before Sputnik I used to read encylopedias out of
curiosity.

as far as radios and knowing about required call sign frequency, I built a
genuine crystal set about the time the very first non-vacuum tube radios came
on the market.

the "time tick" did not come about, I believe, until about the same time as
commercial radio stations started broadcasting, in the early 1920's.

RDF can be problematic re accuracy when at great distances from the stations
(plural) Loran and Decca needed closer proximity. GPS was developed by the US
Navy to aid in military navigation at sea.

celestial navigation is pretty useless most of the time, simply because of
cloud cover much of the time.

I find that hard to believe in any context other than as a historical
side note. It is not required for a license. Please feel free to show
the course which includes full instruction on Lunar Distance and
requirements for a candidate for 3rd Mate to know this.

I didn't learn of chronometers or Lunar Distances by googling. I knew of
each
before google came into existence.

Ok, so before "Google" you used "Funknwaggle".

Chronometers were damned expensive until mid 19th century and still had
temperature compensation problems until well into the 20th century. These
problems were eventually solved with the introduction of consumer electric
watches. Lunars were still commonly used on commercial vessels (as opposed
to
military vessels) until about 150 years ago. The need for celestial nav at
all
started to go away by the early 1920's when radio navigation started to
come
online with commercial radio stations, which were required to give their
call
letters, the city of transmission and frequency every ten minutes.

BG Where do you find this stuff?

Mechanical chronometers will always have some degree of "compensation"
problems, but it wasn't a "problem", once the "time tick" became readily
available.
In some areas, I don't doubt you can find individuals using "Lunars",
into the last century as part of their celestial navigation.
Celestial did not start to disappear in use until the advent of Sat Nav,
which was in the 80's, not 20's.
The use of RDF, Loran, Decca, etc., preceded this, but because of
limited range, accuracy,reliability, etc., it did not really affect the
GLOBAL use of celestial which predominated until the late eighties,
early nineties.

otn

TWO? sciences,,,should I be impressed?

if you wannabe

So, do you think the radio stations also did that during WWII? I'd hate to
think that there were German subs getting lost at Coney Island!



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...

Commercial radio stations came on the air in 1921 (IIRC) and were required to
give their call sign, frequency and city every ten minutes specificly to aid
ships at sea in navigation. This radio required lasted (I believe) into the
1980's by which time it was more than thoroughly obsolete.