Gas prices .. some good news
 

Boater wrote:
Jim wrote:
wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 11:38:58 +0000, Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:

On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:12:16 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"D.Duck" wrote in message
...

My hope is that the GM/Ford/Chrysler problems are resolved (if
resolvable) in bankruptcy, not throwing more tax payer dollars at
them.


Duck, I couldn't agree with you more. Chapter 11 isn't
permanent. It
allows for "reorganization" which is exactly what the auto industry
needs to do right now. Revise business plans, products and
re-negotiate the union contracts under the watchful eye of a
bankruptcy
judge.

Handing them a pile of taxpayer money, calling it a government
"investment" just to keep them in business under their current
organizational structures won't do a damn thing.
I agree.

Tough call. I don't like these bailouts, but can we afford not to?
In this country, 1 in 10 jobs are connected to the auto industry. If
the auto companies fail, we're talking depression, not recession.
All of this, could get real scary, real quick.

Busting the unions should be a requisite part of any bailout plan.
Otherwise they will be back again in a few years looking for another
handout. It's time we earn from our mistakes and stop repeating them.


This from a guy whose career highlight was cleaning the heads aboard a
navy ship?

We used to send numb-nuts like you all over the ship looking for
replacements for burned out headlights.

Gas prices .. some good news
 

Eisboch wrote:
"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:51:05 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon
retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along
with his pension.
And, this is really a ****er, now GM wants the US Taxpayer to dig them
out of the health care hole by paying for the ridiculous health care
packages for their retireees.

So now we have GM begging some working stiff who works, pays taxes and
either doesn't have a health package or only Major Medical at an
exhorbitant rate to sponsor some moron who put four screws in a
dashboard for most of his life and was paid $34/hr plus benefits for
doing so and now has a $4 co-pay for everything health care related.

Here's what I think GM should do - pre-pack a Chapter 11 bankruptcy,
get rid of the ridiculous union contracts and start over again with
government backing (not loans) with reasonable labor costs and
competitive products.

That will do more for the American economy than any TARP.


Actually, I screwed the facts up. The guy wasn't making $85K per year. He
was making $85 per hour, including base pay and cost of benefits. Hmmm...
85 times 40hrs/week times 56 weeks ..... not bad!

As mentioned in a previous post, I agree with the Duck and you. The
solution to the auto industry's problems is Chapter 11 and reorganization,
not a taxpayer financed bailout.


Eisboch



Fifty six weeks, eh? I presume you had a hired bookkeeper.

Gas prices .. some good news
 

"Boater" wrote in message
...

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:

I'll give you an example. My back operation cost $14,356 in total
which was cheap considering that the main surgeon and assistant were
freebies. That includes room, operating room, drugs, anesthesia,
yada, yada, yada.

My copay for that was $2,300. A UAW retiree, the guy who put four
screws in the afore mentioned dashboard for his career, for that same
operation, which would have included surgeon and assistant fees
totaling about $21,000, would have been $4.

A pre-packaged Chapter1 bankruptcy would allow for restructuring the
health care provisions to something a little more reasonable.


"Restructurings" usually are much harder on the working stiffs than the
management pukes. And why should a retiree on a fixed income have to fork
over $2300 for necessary surgery?



It's called a deductable Harry, something anyone should be prepared for and
also reduces health care premiums somewhat. I'll bet the overall savings
in premium payments by having a reasonable deductable more than covers the
$2,300 over the longer term. In major, long term illnesses, the deductable
is usually capped on a yearly basis, last time I checked.



I agree that the burden of paying for necessary health care should be
lifted from US corporations, and handled the way it is in other modern
countries.

I'm also a bit wearing of hearing about Joe the Auto Assembly Line Worker,
whose career consisted of putting four screws in a dashboard.
If that is all Joe does, and it is unlikely, then that is the job
management wants done. It isn't his fault. I haven't been in an auto plant
in many years, but when I was last in one, I didn't see any jobs like
that, and all the jobs I saw were certainly more valuable than being, oh,
a stock broker or plumbing supply dealer or software pussy.

Like leaning on a post, watching robotic arms assemble a car and the
equivalent of 85 bucks an hour?
He's there because his union has a contract saying he is entitled to be
there.

Eisboch

Gas prices .. some good news
 

Don White wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:
"Canuck57" wrote in message
...
I am going to keep my F150 thank you. Nice ride and pulls a boat and
has 4x4 for the winter. Try that with a pint sized electric car up a
long hill.

Harry had a F-150 not too long ago and often reported in this NG what a
great truck it was.

That's before he sharpened his political correctness.

Now a US made truck is crap because he owns a Japanese model.


Eisboch
I haven't owned an F150 for nearly 10 years. It was a good truck. The
Toyota truck that replaced it was better. I doubt I ever stated the
US-made truck was "crap." I have heard those sorts of allegations,
however, from SW Tom and I believe from you.


Speaking of F-150s...saw an ad in the local paper saying 2008 base trucks
could be had for a few pennies under $14K CDN.
Man...I brought it up but the wife squashed that right away. She's rather
pay twice as much for a Forester or RAV4.



My wife is "up" for new car, and I'm trying to convince her a Forester
is what she wants. It isn't working. :}

Gas prices .. some good news
 

Jim wrote:
Boater wrote:
Jim wrote:
wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 11:38:58 +0000, Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:

On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:12:16 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"D.Duck" wrote in message
...

My hope is that the GM/Ford/Chrysler problems are resolved (if
resolvable) in bankruptcy, not throwing more tax payer dollars at
them.


Duck, I couldn't agree with you more. Chapter 11 isn't
permanent. It
allows for "reorganization" which is exactly what the auto industry
needs to do right now. Revise business plans, products and
re-negotiate the union contracts under the watchful eye of a
bankruptcy
judge.

Handing them a pile of taxpayer money, calling it a government
"investment" just to keep them in business under their current
organizational structures won't do a damn thing.
I agree.

Tough call. I don't like these bailouts, but can we afford not to?
In this country, 1 in 10 jobs are connected to the auto industry.
If the auto companies fail, we're talking depression, not
recession. All of this, could get real scary, real quick.

Busting the unions should be a requisite part of any bailout plan.
Otherwise they will be back again in a few years looking for another
handout. It's time we earn from our mistakes and stop repeating them.


This from a guy whose career highlight was cleaning the heads aboard a
navy ship?

We used to send numb-nuts like you all over the ship looking for
replacements for burned out headlights.


No, you didn't. I wasn't dumb enough to get drafted, or, in lieu of
that, join up, so I could kill Asians who were not threatening my country.

Gas prices .. some good news
 

Boater wrote:


I think the bailouts should be stopped dead until the Bush Administration
reveals who has gotten every dollar handed out so far.


I agree with you. I am not sure where the problem lies. We were supposed
to have an oversight report issued to the public by now, as required by the
Congress written and passed legislation on this bailout package.

Problem is, they haven't appointed anyone to the oversight position yet.

I don't blame Bush singularly. The whole stinking pile of incompetents in
Wash DC should be tarred and feathered.

Eisboch

Gas prices .. some good news
 

On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 13:14:49 +0000, Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:



I agree with supporting the banking system - that's a plus and a must.
What I don't agree with is supporting a manufacturing corporation who,
through it's own stupidity, got itself into a mess and now wants the
average taxpayer to bail it out.

Another positive thing about bankruptcy, the managers that took the
company down, usually don't survive. What bothers me the most about
these bailouts is, the managers that failed are still managing. AIG, for
instance, that $440,000 party, these guys just don't get it.

I ain't buying it.

Personally, I think Sheila Bair has the right idea - buy up all the
fluky mortgages, take a small haircut, renegotiate the terms to keep
people in their homes and gradually sell the new assets back into the
system. It's cost neutral to the taxpayer and actually has the
potential to make the taxpayer money.

That part makes sense, but is it enough? This mess seems to be spreading
into other parts of the economy. I don't mind bumpy roads, it's the
downhills that suck.

Gas prices .. some good news
 

Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
I'll give you an example. My back operation cost $14,356 in total
which was cheap considering that the main surgeon and assistant were
freebies. That includes room, operating room, drugs, anesthesia,
yada, yada, yada.

My copay for that was $2,300. A UAW retiree, the guy who put four
screws in the afore mentioned dashboard for his career, for that same
operation, which would have included surgeon and assistant fees
totaling about $21,000, would have been $4.

A pre-packaged Chapter1 bankruptcy would allow for restructuring the
health care provisions to something a little more reasonable.

"Restructurings" usually are much harder on the working stiffs than the
management pukes. And why should a retiree on a fixed income have to fork
over $2300 for necessary surgery?



It's called a deductable Harry, something anyone should be prepared for and
also reduces health care premiums somewhat. I'll bet the overall savings
in premium payments by having a reasonable deductable more than covers the
$2,300 over the longer term. In major, long term illnesses, the deductable
is usually capped on a yearly basis, last time I checked.


One more time: most retirees on fixed incomes cannot afford to lay out
$2300 for necessary surgery. You're a rich retiree. Your perspective is
not relevant to retirees who are trying to decide whether to buy food or
medicine because they cannot afford both.

Gas prices .. some good news
 

Boater wrote:
Don White wrote:
"Jim" wrote in message
...
Come on asshole. There is nothing wrong with EARNING high pay and
being showered with benefits. There is no incentive for union
employees to EARN their keep. They get paid the same *weather* they
do excellent work, mediocre work, or no work. Have you found that
little surprise on the Union web site yet? I wish I could be there
when you discover it.


Weather?? What has the *weather* got to do with it?
Management are the villians here. If you don't think so...go check
out their compensation package for leading their company down the drain.



Hey...it's FloridaJim. He couldn't get a job as a hodcarrier's apprentice.

You two asses can't get out of each others butts can you. While you are
spell checking, look up villions and hodcarrier's.

It's your job to educate your dombfoch Canadian buddy; not high five him
every time he catches a spelling mistake. WAFA

Gas prices .. some good news
 

wrote in message
t...


Tough call. I don't like these bailouts, but can we afford not to? In
this country, 1 in 10 jobs are connected to the auto industry. If the
auto companies fail, we're talking depression, not recession. All of
this, could get real scary, real quick.

This may sound harsh, but I am just about convinced that we are beyond any
form of healthy avenues for recovery.
The reasons are varied and there's plenty of blame to pass around, including
the consumer. At this point though, it just doesn't matter. Assigning
blame doesn't fix the problems.

I think we may just have to bite the bullet, allow Banks, Investment firms,
GM, GMAC, Ford, Ford Motor Credit and Chrysler (whoever they are now-a-days)
to file Chapter 11 bankrupcy, reorganize and start again. That will
unfortunatly cause bankrupcies in many supporting industrys but they are
currently structured to support what exists now, not as it should be.

Everyone is jumping on the bailout bandwagon. American Express just filed
to become a bank, thereby qualifying for some of the bailout money to cover
bad accounts. That's too much. Enough.

Like a hurricane every 100 years or so, it is going to require cleaning out
the deadwood before the forests can grow again.

Eisboch