Gas prices .. some good news
 

When Bush first took office the national average price for a gallon of
regular gas was $1.46.

Today, eight years later, regular is selling around here for about
$2.21/gal. In some places, like Cleveland, Ohio, the price has dropped
below 2 bucks/gal.

Not bad for 8 years.

Nice job, W.


Eisboch (the facts are true, the rest is a joke to yank a few chains)

Gas prices .. some good news
 

On Nov 12, 12:15*pm, "Eisboch" wrote:
When Bush first took office the national average price for a gallon of
regular gas was $1.46.

Today, eight years later, *regular is selling around here for about
$2.21/gal. * In some places, like Cleveland, Ohio, the price has dropped
below 2 bucks/gal.

Not bad for 8 years.

Nice job, W.

Eisboch *(the facts are true, the rest is a joke to yank a few chains)

I paid $1.83

Gas prices .. some good news
 

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...
When Bush first took office the national average price for a gallon of
regular gas was $1.46.

Today, eight years later, regular is selling around here for about
$2.21/gal. In some places, like Cleveland, Ohio, the price has dropped
below 2 bucks/gal.

Not bad for 8 years.

Nice job, W.


Eisboch (the facts are true, the rest is a joke to yank a few chains)

The lower gas prices are nice. It's the rest of the *world* economy I'm
worried about.

Gas prices .. some good news
 

Gas your pigs up while you can. Not gonna tow Cruis'n Rulz! to the pump.
Gonna just get 5 gal at a time and fill her up at home. Don't expect the
prices will hold till next spring. If you wait, you might just find it
back to $4
JR


Eisboch wrote:

When Bush first took office the national average price for a gallon of
regular gas was $1.46.

Today, eight years later, regular is selling around here for about
$2.21/gal. In some places, like Cleveland, Ohio, the price has dropped
below 2 bucks/gal.

Not bad for 8 years.

Nice job, W.


Eisboch (the facts are true, the rest is a joke to yank a few chains)



--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth

Gas prices .. some good news
 

"JR North" wrote in message
...
Gas your pigs up while you can. Not gonna tow Cruis'n Rulz! to the pump.
Gonna just get 5 gal at a time and fill her up at home. Don't expect the
prices will hold till next spring. If you wait, you might just find it
back to $4
JR



Nobody likes a spoilsport.

You're gonna give "O" some ideas of things to raise taxes on in order to
force you to
buy an oversized golf cart which is what he's gonna force Ford, GM and
Chrysler to build if they want a bailout.

Eisboch

Gas prices .. some good news
 

Eisboch wrote:
"JR North" wrote in message
...
Gas your pigs up while you can. Not gonna tow Cruis'n Rulz! to the pump.
Gonna just get 5 gal at a time and fill her up at home. Don't expect the
prices will hold till next spring. If you wait, you might just find it
back to $4
JR



Nobody likes a spoilsport.

You're gonna give "O" some ideas of things to raise taxes on in order to
force you to
buy an oversized golf cart which is what he's gonna force Ford, GM and
Chrysler to build if they want a bailout.

Eisboch




Heaven forbid U.S. car makers produce mostly high quality, smaller, fuel
efficient cars that people want to buy and dump most of the oversized,
overpowered, mediocre quality V8's behemoths that get 13 mpg. Or less.

Gas prices .. some good news
 

"Boater" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:
"JR North" wrote in message
...
Gas your pigs up while you can. Not gonna tow Cruis'n Rulz! to the pump.
Gonna just get 5 gal at a time and fill her up at home. Don't expect the
prices will hold till next spring. If you wait, you might just find it
back to $4
JR



Nobody likes a spoilsport.

You're gonna give "O" some ideas of things to raise taxes on in order to
force you to
buy an oversized golf cart which is what he's gonna force Ford, GM and
Chrysler to build if they want a bailout.

Eisboch


Heaven forbid U.S. car makers produce mostly high quality, smaller, fuel
efficient cars that people want to buy and dump most of the oversized,
overpowered, mediocre quality V8's behemoths that get 13 mpg. Or less.


Again, you get it wrong. If the vast majority of people wanted to buy
smaller, fuel efficient cars,
Detroit would have been be turning them out by the millions for years.

That may change (and it should), but the point is .... Detroit builds what
people buy.

Eisboch

Gas prices .. some good news
 

Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:
"JR North" wrote in message
...
Gas your pigs up while you can. Not gonna tow Cruis'n Rulz! to the pump.
Gonna just get 5 gal at a time and fill her up at home. Don't expect the
prices will hold till next spring. If you wait, you might just find it
back to $4
JR


Nobody likes a spoilsport.

You're gonna give "O" some ideas of things to raise taxes on in order to
force you to
buy an oversized golf cart which is what he's gonna force Ford, GM and
Chrysler to build if they want a bailout.

Eisboch

Heaven forbid U.S. car makers produce mostly high quality, smaller, fuel
efficient cars that people want to buy and dump most of the oversized,
overpowered, mediocre quality V8's behemoths that get 13 mpg. Or less.


Again, you get it wrong. If the vast majority of people wanted to buy
smaller, fuel efficient cars,
Detroit would have been be turning them out by the millions for years.

That may change (and it should), but the point is .... Detroit builds what
people buy.

Eisboch




Apparently Detroit builds what people don't what to buy.

Gas prices .. some good news
 

"Boater" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:
"JR North" wrote in message
...
Gas your pigs up while you can. Not gonna tow Cruis'n Rulz! to the
pump. Gonna just get 5 gal at a time and fill her up at home. Don't
expect the prices will hold till next spring. If you wait, you might
just find it back to $4
JR


Nobody likes a spoilsport.

You're gonna give "O" some ideas of things to raise taxes on in order
to force you to
buy an oversized golf cart which is what he's gonna force Ford, GM and
Chrysler to build if they want a bailout.

Eisboch

Heaven forbid U.S. car makers produce mostly high quality, smaller, fuel
efficient cars that people want to buy and dump most of the oversized,
overpowered, mediocre quality V8's behemoths that get 13 mpg. Or less.


Again, you get it wrong. If the vast majority of people wanted to buy
smaller, fuel efficient cars,
Detroit would have been be turning them out by the millions for years.

That may change (and it should), but the point is .... Detroit builds
what people buy.

Eisboch






Apparently Detroit builds what people don't what to buy.

sigh

Correct. This year. Or, more accurately the past 6 months.

Eisboch

Gas prices .. some good news
 

On Nov 12, 3:37*pm, Boater wrote:
Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:
"JR North" wrote in message
...
Gas your pigs up while you can. Not gonna tow Cruis'n Rulz! to the pump.
Gonna just get 5 gal at a time and fill her up at home. Don't expect the
prices will hold till next spring. If you wait, you might just find it
back to $4
JR

Nobody likes a spoilsport.

You're gonna give "O" some ideas of things to raise taxes on in order to
force you to
buy an oversized golf cart which is what he's gonna force Ford, GM and
Chrysler to build if they want a bailout.

Eisboch

Heaven forbid U.S. car makers produce mostly high quality, smaller, fuel
efficient cars that people want to buy and dump most of the oversized,
overpowered, mediocre quality V8's behemoths that get 13 mpg. Or less.

Again, you get it wrong. *If the vast majority of people wanted to buy
smaller, fuel efficient cars,
Detroit would *have been be turning them out by the millions for years.

That may change (and it should), but the point is .... Detroit builds what
people buy.

Eisboch

Apparently Detroit builds what people don't what to buy.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You must have gotten that idea from Fox News Monday evening

Gas prices .. some good news
 

Gas prices .. some good news
 

"D.Duck" wrote in message
...

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...
When Bush first took office the national average price for a gallon of
regular gas was $1.46.

Today, eight years later, regular is selling around here for about
$2.21/gal. In some places, like Cleveland, Ohio, the price has dropped
below 2 bucks/gal.

Not bad for 8 years.

Nice job, W.


Eisboch (the facts are true, the rest is a joke to yank a few chains)

The lower gas prices are nice. It's the rest of the *world* economy I'm
worried about.

Insightful. It is really called deflation. The opposite of inflation.
With the market loosing so much value, people losing jobs, the prices people
will pay is going with it. The right "sustainable" price for oil would be
about $70-85 barrel.

Sounds good at first glance, but it is in reality a sure sign of depression.
It means that homes will further decrease in value and even more people will
"walk away" from their debts. In effect, the US economy value is equalizing
to India, China, South America...

This will lead to total collapse as how does the US government pay for a 12
trillion debt in an outright stalled economy? Government prints money like
a crack junky shoots dope.

Add the insatiable spend-crazy lust for governments to bail out companies
like GM and the banks paints a bleak picture for the US economy. Very bleak
indeed. Every time the government announces a bail out we get a market
tumble.

Gas prices .. some good news
 

"JR North" wrote in message
...
Gas your pigs up while you can. Not gonna tow Cruis'n Rulz! to the pump.
Gonna just get 5 gal at a time and fill her up at home. Don't expect the
prices will hold till next spring. If you wait, you might just find it
back to $4
JR

You are likely right. Any market recovery and oil will go right past
$100/barrel in light speed due to anticipation of demand. If China kicks in
it will be sooner than we think.

Too bad gasoline does not keep and if I had a 5000 gallon tank to hold it.

Gas prices .. some good news
 

"Boater" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:
"JR North" wrote in message
...
Gas your pigs up while you can. Not gonna tow Cruis'n Rulz! to the pump.
Gonna just get 5 gal at a time and fill her up at home. Don't expect the
prices will hold till next spring. If you wait, you might just find it
back to $4
JR



Nobody likes a spoilsport.

You're gonna give "O" some ideas of things to raise taxes on in order to
force you to
buy an oversized golf cart which is what he's gonna force Ford, GM and
Chrysler to build if they want a bailout.

Eisboch


Heaven forbid U.S. car makers produce mostly high quality, smaller, fuel
efficient cars that people want to buy and dump most of the oversized,
overpowered, mediocre quality V8's behemoths that get 13 mpg. Or less.

I am going to keep my F150 thank you. Nice ride and pulls a boat and has
4x4 for the winter. Try that with a pint sized electric car up a long hill.

Gas prices .. some good news
 

"Boater" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:
"JR North" wrote in message
...
Gas your pigs up while you can. Not gonna tow Cruis'n Rulz! to the
pump. Gonna just get 5 gal at a time and fill her up at home. Don't
expect the prices will hold till next spring. If you wait, you might
just find it back to $4
JR


Nobody likes a spoilsport.

You're gonna give "O" some ideas of things to raise taxes on in order
to force you to
buy an oversized golf cart which is what he's gonna force Ford, GM and
Chrysler to build if they want a bailout.

Eisboch

Heaven forbid U.S. car makers produce mostly high quality, smaller, fuel
efficient cars that people want to buy and dump most of the oversized,
overpowered, mediocre quality V8's behemoths that get 13 mpg. Or less.


Again, you get it wrong. If the vast majority of people wanted to buy
smaller, fuel efficient cars,
Detroit would have been be turning them out by the millions for years.

That may change (and it should), but the point is .... Detroit builds
what people buy.

Eisboch

Apparently Detroit builds what people don't what to buy.

Actually have a car dealership finance manager in the family. Inside word
is that they have buyers, but credit bounces. Basically you need sufficient
collateral, job or cash with a good rating. Just like 40 years ago. They
are losing 9/10 sales this way.

I guess part of this is that a good part of the debt financed middle class
is bankrupt.

Gas prices .. some good news
 

"Canuck57" wrote in message
...

"D.Duck" wrote in message
...

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...
When Bush first took office the national average price for a gallon of
regular gas was $1.46.

Today, eight years later, regular is selling around here for about
$2.21/gal. In some places, like Cleveland, Ohio, the price has dropped
below 2 bucks/gal.

Not bad for 8 years.

Nice job, W.


Eisboch (the facts are true, the rest is a joke to yank a few chains)

The lower gas prices are nice. It's the rest of the *world* economy I'm
worried about.

Insightful. It is really called deflation. The opposite of inflation.
With the market loosing so much value, people losing jobs, the prices
people will pay is going with it. The right "sustainable" price for oil
would be about $70-85 barrel.

Sounds good at first glance, but it is in reality a sure sign of
depression. It means that homes will further decrease in value and even
more people will "walk away" from their debts. In effect, the US economy
value is equalizing to India, China, South America...

This will lead to total collapse as how does the US government pay for a
12 trillion debt in an outright stalled economy? Government prints money
like a crack junky shoots dope.

Add the insatiable spend-crazy lust for governments to bail out companies
like GM and the banks paints a bleak picture for the US economy. Very
bleak indeed. Every time the government announces a bail out we get a
market tumble.

My hope is that the GM/Ford/Chrysler problems are resolved (if resolvable)
in bankruptcy, not throwing more tax payer dollars at them.

Gas prices .. some good news
 

"Canuck57" wrote in message
...

"JR North" wrote in message
...
Gas your pigs up while you can. Not gonna tow Cruis'n Rulz! to the pump.
Gonna just get 5 gal at a time and fill her up at home. Don't expect the
prices will hold till next spring. If you wait, you might just find it
back to $4
JR

You are likely right. Any market recovery and oil will go right past
$100/barrel in light speed due to anticipation of demand. If China kicks
in it will be sooner than we think.

Too bad gasoline does not keep and if I had a 5000 gallon tank to hold it.


Lots of Stabil. Oh, the 5000 gallon tank. 8)

Gas prices .. some good news
 

On Nov 12, 4:38*pm, "Eisboch" wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message

...





Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:
"JR North" wrote in message
...
Gas your pigs up while you can. Not gonna tow Cruis'n Rulz! to the
pump. Gonna just get 5 gal at a time and fill her up at home. Don't
expect the prices will hold till next spring. If you wait, you might
just find it back to $4
JR

Nobody likes a spoilsport.

You're gonna give "O" some ideas of things to raise taxes on in order
to force you to
buy an oversized golf cart which is what he's gonna force Ford, GM and
Chrysler to build if they want a bailout.

Eisboch

Heaven forbid U.S. car makers produce mostly high quality, smaller, fuel
efficient cars that people want to buy and dump most of the oversized,
overpowered, mediocre quality V8's behemoths that get 13 mpg. Or less..

Again, you get it wrong. *If the vast majority of people wanted to buy
smaller, fuel efficient cars,
Detroit would *have been be turning them out by the millions for years.

That may change (and it should), but the point is .... Detroit builds
what people buy.

Eisboch

Apparently Detroit builds what people don't what to buy.

sigh

Correct. *This year. *Or, more accurately the past 6 months.

Eisboch

Ford and GM took a look at trying to compete with Honda, Toyota and
Nissan in the small, efficient cars ten years ago. They were
completely unable to compete because of the labor cost in their
vehicles compared to their competion, thanks to the UAW.

Their only way to make enough money to continue to meet the finacial
obligation forced on them by union labor was to continue to build high
profit SUVs and trucks. Now that that's over, the UAW slobs with
barely a high school education living on easy street may have to
tighten their belts to allow the auto makers to survive. Heh.. will
that happen? Of course not... the unions say screw everyone else, we
got ours!

Gas prices .. some good news
 

Gas prices .. some good news
 

Gas prices .. some good news
 

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

"Boater" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:
"JR North" wrote in message
...
Gas your pigs up while you can. Not gonna tow Cruis'n Rulz! to the
pump. Gonna just get 5 gal at a time and fill her up at home. Don't
expect the prices will hold till next spring. If you wait, you might
just find it back to $4
JR


Nobody likes a spoilsport.

You're gonna give "O" some ideas of things to raise taxes on in order
to force you to
buy an oversized golf cart which is what he's gonna force Ford, GM and
Chrysler to build if they want a bailout.

Eisboch

Heaven forbid U.S. car makers produce mostly high quality, smaller,
fuel efficient cars that people want to buy and dump most of the
oversized, overpowered, mediocre quality V8's behemoths that get 13
mpg. Or less.


Again, you get it wrong. If the vast majority of people wanted to buy
smaller, fuel efficient cars,
Detroit would have been be turning them out by the millions for years.

That may change (and it should), but the point is .... Detroit builds
what people buy.

Eisboch






Apparently Detroit builds what people don't what to buy.

sigh

Correct. This year. Or, more accurately the past 6 months.

Eisboch


Look at the vehicles from Honda, Toyota and Nissan. They are big, just like
the Detroit iron. The Sequoia is as big as a full size Chevy Tahoe or
Expedition. I think the Nissan Titan looks bigger than my 3/4 T Chevy
diesel truck. The difference is about $39 an hour labor costs. About $80
for the Big 3 vs. $41 for the imports. Mostly in retiree and medical costs
for the retirees. The imports have not been here long enough to build up a
large retirement force. As well as the union negotiated pay for no work.
GM has about 12,000 on a job bank program. Full pay for 10 years of no
work. Let the Big 3 go bankrupt. Happens to lots of companies when they
fail to compete. They will not go away, someone else will take over. The
retirees will get screwed and may get less money, but they will just need to
share the wealth.

Gas prices .. some good news
 

On Nov 12, 7:49*pm, "Calif Bill" wrote:

... *As well as the union negotiated pay for no work.

You blame unions for asking for it but not management for giving it?
Interesting.

Gas prices .. some good news
 

On Nov 12, 10:40*pm, tin cup wrote:
wrote:
On Nov 12, 4:38 pm, "Eisboch" wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message

...

Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:
"JR North" wrote in message
...
Gas your pigs up while you can. Not gonna tow Cruis'n Rulz! to the
pump. Gonna just get 5 gal at a time and fill her up at home. Don't
expect the prices will hold till next spring. If you wait, you might
just find it back to $4
JR
Nobody likes a spoilsport.
You're gonna give "O" some ideas of things to raise taxes on in order
to force you to
buy an oversized golf cart which is what he's gonna force Ford, GM and
Chrysler to build if they want a bailout.
Eisboch
Heaven forbid U.S. car makers produce mostly high quality, smaller, fuel
efficient cars that people want to buy and dump most of the oversized,
overpowered, mediocre quality V8's behemoths that get 13 mpg. Or less.
Again, you get it wrong. *If the vast majority of people wanted to buy
smaller, fuel efficient cars,
Detroit would *have been be turning them out by the millions for years.
That may change (and it should), but the point is .... Detroit builds
what people buy.
Eisboch
Apparently Detroit builds what people don't what to buy.
sigh

Correct. *This year. *Or, more accurately the past 6 months.

Eisboch

Ford and GM took a look at trying to compete with Honda, Toyota and
Nissan in the small, efficient cars ten years ago. *They were
completely unable to compete because of the labor cost in their
vehicles compared to their competion, thanks to the UAW.

Their only way to make enough money to continue to meet the finacial
obligation forced on them by union labor was to continue to build high
profit SUVs and trucks. *Now that that's over, the UAW slobs with
barely a high school education living on easy street may have to
tighten their belts to allow the auto makers to survive. *Heh.. will
that happen? *Of course not... the unions say screw everyone else, we
got ours!

UAW slobs??
How white of you. In your world only Investment Bankers should make a
decent living.

Huh? White? Race has nothing to do with it, but interesting that you
would interject it into this discussion. Also, since I'm a college
graduate, and I work for a living, why would investment bankers have
anything to do with this? Smoke another
dooby, dude.

The average wage was around 58,000.00 a year. So you want them to make
20,000.00 or 10,000.00?
Of course not. But why should the average high school UAW emplyed
graduate make as much as an average college graduate? And have
complete retirement, medical, etc bestowed on them when the vast
majority of the county is expected to plan for their own retirement
with savings, etc?

The UAW is not the problem. The problem is the bean counters building
cars that are not desirable as we want at too high a markup and interest
rates that may be, in total as much again as the price of the vehicle.
Take another toke. Unless you're totally worthless, you can get a
vehicle for 0% financing. And the markup? It's to cover the UAW
union forced benefits and retirement that *has* to be covered with
every vehicle sold. That's why they can't compete... duh.

Global Wall Street demands for too high a return on investment, and then
their gambling with worthless, imaginary values causing a collapse is
the problem.

Thank the Dems for that... sub-prime loans they protected, remember?

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can
only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves
largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority
always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the
public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over
loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average
age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years.

Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual
truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to
abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to
complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence,
from dependence back again to bondage."

Selfishness defines today's unions. The Dems are promising the most
benefits, and the sheeple are voting. The USA is on the downward
spiral.

Gas prices .. some good news
 

On Nov 12, 10:43*pm, Boater wrote:
wrote:
On Nov 12, 4:38 pm, "Eisboch" wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message

...

Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:
"JR North" wrote in message
...
Gas your pigs up while you can. Not gonna tow Cruis'n Rulz! to the
pump. Gonna just get 5 gal at a time and fill her up at home. Don't
expect the prices will hold till next spring. If you wait, you might
just find it back to $4
JR
Nobody likes a spoilsport.
You're gonna give "O" some ideas of things to raise taxes on in order
to force you to
buy an oversized golf cart which is what he's gonna force Ford, GM and
Chrysler to build if they want a bailout.
Eisboch
Heaven forbid U.S. car makers produce mostly high quality, smaller, fuel
efficient cars that people want to buy and dump most of the oversized,
overpowered, mediocre quality V8's behemoths that get 13 mpg. Or less.
Again, you get it wrong. *If the vast majority of people wanted to buy
smaller, fuel efficient cars,
Detroit would *have been be turning them out by the millions for years.
That may change (and it should), but the point is .... Detroit builds
what people buy.
Eisboch
Apparently Detroit builds what people don't what to buy.
sigh

Correct. *This year. *Or, more accurately the past 6 months.

Eisboch

Ford and GM took a look at trying to compete with Honda, Toyota and
Nissan in the small, efficient cars ten years ago. *They were
completely unable to compete because of the labor cost in their
vehicles compared to their competion, thanks to the UAW.

Their only way to make enough money to continue to meet the finacial
obligation forced on them by union labor was to continue to build high
profit SUVs and trucks. *Now that that's over, the UAW slobs with
barely a high school education living on easy street may have to
tighten their belts to allow the auto makers to survive. *Heh.. will
that happen? *Of course not... the unions say screw everyone else, we
got ours!

Such hatred for the working man and woman...typical.

Only if they band together under a union flag and take down an
American institution such as GM in the name of their personal greed.

Gas prices .. some good news
 

"br" wrote in message
...
On Nov 12, 7:49 pm, "Calif Bill" wrote:

... As well as the union negotiated pay for no work.

You blame unions for asking for it but not management for giving it?
Interesting.

Both are guilty. Let both fail.

Gas prices .. some good news
 

On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 16:26:46 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

That may change (and it should), but the point is .... Detroit builds what
people buy.

Right up until they don't.

Detroit made two big mistakes:

1. They thought they could keep pushing profitable big iron forever.

2. They could never figure out how to build a small, high quality,
economical car at a reasonable price. Given the high cost of their
labor content it may have been impossible but they never really tried.

Is there any reason why GM could not have produced something like a
Toyota Corolla or a small pickup truck even if they had to build it
offshore? People have certainly bought plenty of them from Toyota so
we can't claim the demand wasn't there.

Gas prices .. some good news
 

On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 22:40:09 -0500, tin cup wrote:

The average wage was around 58,000.00 a year.

That's misleading, benefits add at least another 20,000. That is
pretty good pay for unskiled labor, about 2 or 3 times what most
factory workers get.

Gas prices .. some good news
 

On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 00:30:19 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 16:26:46 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

That may change (and it should), but the point is .... Detroit builds what
people buy.

Right up until they don't.

Detroit made two big mistakes:

1. They thought they could keep pushing profitable big iron forever.

2. They could never figure out how to build a small, high quality,
economical car at a reasonable price. Given the high cost of their
labor content it may have been impossible but they never really tried.

Is there any reason why GM could not have produced something like a
Toyota Corolla or a small pickup truck even if they had to build it
offshore? People have certainly bought plenty of them from Toyota so
we can't claim the demand wasn't there.

Good points although I could argue that point #2 is somewhat
disengenous.

Detroit could have developed small and efficient cars because they
built them in Europe. When we were in Ireland a few years ago, all
the taxis in Dublin were Fords and very similar to the Focus in size
only more efficient. Taxi drivers there told me they got 34 mph on
average - which is pretty damn decent.

I understand that the problem with importing these cars to our side of
the pond was that they wouldn't meet California emissions standars
and, believe it or not, California emissions standards are the defacto
driver for the US auto industry - it was too expensive to retrofit
them to meet our standards.

I seem to remember reading recently, that 20-25% of all cars sold in
the US are sold in California - it would make sense if the percentage
is that high, their standards would become defacto for the rest of the
nation.

I still maintain that we can have our cake and eat it too. All we
need to do is switch to diesel/electric trucks and do the same for the
bigger cars. I read something the other day about GE's Evolution
diesel/electric locomotive, 12 cylinder turbo charged diesel engine
producing 6300 BHP and something like 6000 THP (traction wheel
horsepower) which can move a ridiculous amount of freight (in the
order of 50 million pounds or something like that - might even have
been higher) 6 miles on one gallon of diesel fuel.

You can't convince that the lessons learned in developing that type of
transportation power can't be used in developing a diesel/electric
capable of moving a F-350 around town efficiently. :)

Gas prices .. some good news
 

"Canuck57" wrote in message
...


Insightful. It is really called deflation. The opposite of inflation.
With the market loosing so much value, people losing jobs, the prices
people will pay is going with it. The right "sustainable" price for oil
would be about $70-85 barrel.

Sounds good at first glance, but it is in reality a sure sign of
depression. It means that homes will further decrease in value and even
more people will "walk away" from their debts. In effect, the US economy
value is equalizing to India, China, South America...

This will lead to total collapse as how does the US government pay for a
12 trillion debt in an outright stalled economy? Government prints money
like a crack junky shoots dope.

Add the insatiable spend-crazy lust for governments to bail out companies
like GM and the banks paints a bleak picture for the US economy. Very
bleak indeed. Every time the government announces a bail out we get a
market tumble.


Good post. You seem to have a handle on the economics of this mess.

Eisboch

Gas prices .. some good news
 

"D.Duck" wrote in message
...


My hope is that the GM/Ford/Chrysler problems are resolved (if resolvable)
in bankruptcy, not throwing more tax payer dollars at them.


Duck, I couldn't agree with you more. Chapter 11 isn't permanent. It
allows for "reorganization" which is exactly what the auto industry needs to
do right now. Revise business plans, products and re-negotiate the union
contracts under the watchful eye of a bankruptcy judge.

Handing them a pile of taxpayer money, calling it a government "investment"
just to keep them in business under their current organizational structures
won't do a damn thing.

Eisboch

Gas prices .. some good news
 

"Canuck57" wrote in message
...

"JR North" wrote in message
...
Gas your pigs up while you can. Not gonna tow Cruis'n Rulz! to the pump.
Gonna just get 5 gal at a time and fill her up at home. Don't expect the
prices will hold till next spring. If you wait, you might just find it
back to $4
JR

You are likely right. Any market recovery and oil will go right past
$100/barrel in light speed due to anticipation of demand. If China kicks
in it will be sooner than we think.

Too bad gasoline does not keep and if I had a 5000 gallon tank to hold it.

Switch to diesel power. Diesel fuel will store for a very long time,
properly conditioned.

Eisboch

Gas prices .. some good news
 

"Canuck57" wrote in message
...


I am going to keep my F150 thank you. Nice ride and pulls a boat and has
4x4 for the winter. Try that with a pint sized electric car up a long
hill.


Harry had a F-150 not too long ago and often reported in this NG what a
great truck it was.

That's before he sharpened his political correctness.

Now a US made truck is crap because he owns a Japanese model.


Eisboch

Gas prices .. some good news
 

"tin cup" wrote in message
...

wrote:

Ford and GM took a look at trying to compete with Honda, Toyota and
Nissan in the small, efficient cars ten years ago. They were
completely unable to compete because of the labor cost in their
vehicles compared to their competion, thanks to the UAW.

Their only way to make enough money to continue to meet the finacial
obligation forced on them by union labor was to continue to build high
profit SUVs and trucks. Now that that's over, the UAW slobs with
barely a high school education living on easy street may have to
tighten their belts to allow the auto makers to survive. Heh.. will
that happen? Of course not... the unions say screw everyone else, we
got ours!


UAW slobs??
How white of you. In your world only Investment Bankers should make a
decent living.
The average wage was around 58,000.00 a year. So you want them to make
20,000.00 or 10,000.00?
The UAW is not the problem. The problem is the bean counters building cars
that are not desirable as we want at too high a markup and interest rates
that may be, in total as much again as the price of the vehicle. Global
Wall Street demands for too high a return on investment, and then their
gambling with worthless, imaginary values causing a collapse is the
problem.

I don't consider UAW members "slobs", but I agree with his overall
assesment.
The auto industry has signed up to some very expensive union contracts over
the years,
providing pay and benefit packages far in excess to those earned by
non-union workers with a similar education. This was done in robust
economic times and the high margin vechicles contributed the most towards
covering the costs of the benefit packages.

The small, fuel efficient cars are low margin products. Now that they have
become "desireable", GM, Ford and Chrysler are facing bankrupcy. The whole
structure has to change. Nobody in their right mind is going to pay $50K
for a fuel efficient, Ford Focus, nor should they.

Eisboch

Gas prices .. some good news
 

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 22:40:09 -0500, tin cup wrote:

The average wage was around 58,000.00 a year.

That's misleading, benefits add at least another 20,000. That is
pretty good pay for unskiled labor, about 2 or 3 times what most
factory workers get.


I saw a news clip recently of a GM "worker" standing beside a console on
the assembly line, supervising a bunch of robotic arms assembling a car. His
primary job was to hit the red "Emergency Off" button, if something went
screwy or was called to do so.

His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon
retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along
with his pension.

I don't deny anybody the right to hold a good job with decent pay and
benefits, but it really should be in concert with the person's initiative to
prepare him/her self for that career. I am sorry, but standing around
watching an automated assembly line put cars together for that kind of pay
and benefits just doesn't do it for me, especially when I see others who
have worked hard to educate and qualify themselves for a trade making far
less.

Eisboch

Gas prices .. some good news
 

"br" wrote in message
...
On Nov 12, 7:49 pm, "Calif Bill" wrote:

... As well as the union negotiated pay for no work.

You blame unions for asking for it but not management for giving it?
Interesting.


Management can't go on strike to twist arms.

Eisboch

Gas prices .. some good news
 

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...

On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 16:26:46 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

That may change (and it should), but the point is .... Detroit builds what
people buy.

Right up until they don't.

Detroit made two big mistakes:

1. They thought they could keep pushing profitable big iron forever.

2. They could never figure out how to build a small, high quality,
economical car at a reasonable price. Given the high cost of their
labor content it may have been impossible but they never really tried.

Is there any reason why GM could not have produced something like a
Toyota Corolla or a small pickup truck even if they had to build it
offshore? People have certainly bought plenty of them from Toyota so
we can't claim the demand wasn't there.


It's the margins. The small cars don't produce enough to cover the total
company costs.
Never have.

Build offshore? Now, there's a UAW strike in the making.

Actually, the Ford Ranger has been a very successful product for Ford over
the years. It's really a Mazda.
To a lesser degree, GM's S-10 series has been a good seller. I believe
it's also based on a Japanese platform (Isuzu ?)

Eisboch

Gas prices .. some good news
 

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 00:30:19 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

snip

Taxi drivers there told me they got 34 mph on
average - which is pretty damn decent.

Are you sure is wasn't kilometers per *hour*. Or maybe kilometer's per
liter?

I know, I know, you're not used to being up so late. 8)

Gas prices .. some good news (Union highlights)
 

Gas prices .. some good news
 

Boater wrote:
wrote:
On Nov 12, 4:38 pm, "Eisboch" wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message

...





Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:
"JR North" wrote in message
...
Gas your pigs up while you can. Not gonna tow Cruis'n Rulz! to the
pump. Gonna just get 5 gal at a time and fill her up at home. Don't
expect the prices will hold till next spring. If you wait, you
might
just find it back to $4
JR
Nobody likes a spoilsport.
You're gonna give "O" some ideas of things to raise taxes on in
order
to force you to
buy an oversized golf cart which is what he's gonna force Ford,
GM and
Chrysler to build if they want a bailout.
Eisboch
Heaven forbid U.S. car makers produce mostly high quality,
smaller, fuel
efficient cars that people want to buy and dump most of the
oversized,
overpowered, mediocre quality V8's behemoths that get 13 mpg. Or
less.
Again, you get it wrong. If the vast majority of people wanted to buy
smaller, fuel efficient cars,
Detroit would have been be turning them out by the millions for
years.
That may change (and it should), but the point is .... Detroit builds
what people buy.
Eisboch
Apparently Detroit builds what people don't what to buy.
sigh

Correct. This year. Or, more accurately the past 6 months.

Eisboch

Ford and GM took a look at trying to compete with Honda, Toyota and
Nissan in the small, efficient cars ten years ago. They were
completely unable to compete because of the labor cost in their
vehicles compared to their competion, thanks to the UAW.

Their only way to make enough money to continue to meet the finacial
obligation forced on them by union labor was to continue to build high
profit SUVs and trucks. Now that that's over, the UAW slobs with
barely a high school education living on easy street may have to
tighten their belts to allow the auto makers to survive. Heh.. will
that happen? Of course not... the unions say screw everyone else, we
got ours!


Such hatred for the working man and woman...typical.
Oh...the Japanese aren't saddled with the high cost of providing health
care for their employees and retirees.

Come on asshole. There is nothing wrong with EARNING high pay and being
showered with benefits. There is no incentive for union employees to
EARN their keep. They get paid the same weather they do excellent work,
mediocre work, or no work. Have you found that little surprise on the
Union web site yet? I wish I could be there when you discover it.

Gas prices .. some good news
 

Eisboch wrote:
"Canuck57" wrote in message
...

I am going to keep my F150 thank you. Nice ride and pulls a boat and has
4x4 for the winter. Try that with a pint sized electric car up a long
hill.


Harry had a F-150 not too long ago and often reported in this NG what a
great truck it was.

That's before he sharpened his political correctness.

Now a US made truck is crap because he owns a Japanese model.


Eisboch



I haven't owned an F150 for nearly 10 years. It was a good truck. The
Toyota truck that replaced it was better. I doubt I ever stated the
US-made truck was "crap." I have heard those sorts of allegations,
however, from SW Tom and I believe from you.