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Gas prices .. some good news
Don White wrote:
"Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 16:26:46 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: That may change (and it should), but the point is .... Detroit builds what people buy. Right up until they don't. Detroit made two big mistakes: 1. They thought they could keep pushing profitable big iron forever. 2. They could never figure out how to build a small, high quality, economical car at a reasonable price. Given the high cost of their labor content it may have been impossible but they never really tried. Is there any reason why GM could not have produced something like a Toyota Corolla or a small pickup truck even if they had to build it offshore? People have certainly bought plenty of them from Toyota so we can't claim the demand wasn't there. Finally...some common sense! And what would we do with all of the unemployed union auto workers here in the good old U S of A? |
Gas prices .. some good news
"Vic Smith" wrote in message ... On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:51:05 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: "Wayne.B" wrote in message . .. On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 22:40:09 -0500, tin cup wrote: The average wage was around 58,000.00 a year. That's misleading, benefits add at least another 20,000. That is pretty good pay for unskiled labor, about 2 or 3 times what most factory workers get. I saw a news clip recently of a GM "worker" standing beside a console on the assembly line, supervising a bunch of robotic arms assembling a car. His primary job was to hit the red "Emergency Off" button, if something went screwy or was called to do so. His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along with his pension. I don't deny anybody the right to hold a good job with decent pay and benefits, but it really should be in concert with the person's initiative to prepare him/her self for that career. I am sorry, but standing around watching an automated assembly line put cars together for that kind of pay and benefits just doesn't do it for me, especially when I see others who have worked hard to educate and qualify themselves for a trade making far less. Oh, please. "Educated geniuses" like Paulson of Goldman-Sachs, who pulled down +50 million his last year as CEO there, and sold his stock for $500 million to work for the guv, have managed to totally **** up this country. I just love it when auto workers are portrayed like you just did, and the cars and trucks just get produced by magic. While worthless ****s like those running this country, and who supposedly "create" magic wealth but who actually create debt are heros on the covers of news magazines. I want to puke whenever I see that idiot Jack Welch. Listening to anti-American morons like him is a primary reason this country is going down the tubes. Not that I disagree that Detroit management has screwed the pooch in giving the UAW stuff like sub-pay. That's their problem, and I don't care if they go bankrupt. Simple inattention to the ledger book is the primary problem of most businesses, and Detroit's sins are even more venal. BTW, U.S. Toyota and Honda plants offer similar non-union wages, but smarter management. And they have little legacy costs. If Detroit goes bust, the Honda/Toyota workers will likely vote in the UAW to represent them. National health care will eliminate most of that legacy cost. A big chunk of Toyota/Honda sales here are still being imported from Japanese plants, where they don't suffer health care costs. Don't know how much that figures in profitability, but the Japs also engineer in more quality too. Sorry to be disagreeable, but having spent years as both a production worker and in an "educated" field making much more money but producing nothing tangible, I have strong views of their relative values. There's a reason this country is going downhill, and it sure as hell isn't being caused by workers who actually produce goods. Too many chiefs and not enough working Indians is the problem. But that concept is too complex for the "educated" morons who are "creating" all that magic money. Well, here we are, and it's just going to get worse. Trust me. We need Pat Buchanan running the show. He knows what's up. If Obama is a real "free-trader globalist" we'll continue the decline. Bottom line is you can't consume more than you produce. The peasant Chinamen doing the work for us will own us if we continue down this path. --Vic Disclaimer: My opinions are worth exactly what you paid for them. Heh. In the future please don't be so hesitant and shy about expressing your views. We'll consider them, even though they are wrong. :-) Eisboch |
Gas prices .. some good news
"Jim" wrote in message ... Boater wrote: This from a guy whose career highlight was cleaning the heads aboard a navy ship? We used to send numb-nuts like you all over the ship looking for replacements for burned out headlights. Or a replacement fallopian tube for one of the transmitters. Eisboch :-) |
Gas prices .. some good news
Jim wrote:
Boater wrote: Don White wrote: "Jim" wrote in message ... Come on asshole. There is nothing wrong with EARNING high pay and being showered with benefits. There is no incentive for union employees to EARN their keep. They get paid the same *weather* they do excellent work, mediocre work, or no work. Have you found that little surprise on the Union web site yet? I wish I could be there when you discover it. Weather?? What has the *weather* got to do with it? Management are the villians here. If you don't think so...go check out their compensation package for leading their company down the drain. Hey...it's FloridaJim. He couldn't get a job as a hodcarrier's apprentice. You two asses can't get out of each others butts can you. While you are spell checking, look up villions and hodcarrier's. It's your job to educate your dombfoch Canadian buddy; not high five him every time he catches a spelling mistake. WAFA What's a villion, FloridaJim? Something you learned about while chipping paint in the navy? I know what a hod carrier does, which is why I pointed out you didn't have the skills to be a hod carrier's apprentice. Additionally, it's manly work. That would exclude a loser like you. |
Gas prices .. some good news
"Boater" wrote in message ... No, you didn't. I wasn't dumb enough to get drafted, or, in lieu of that, join up, so I could kill Asians who were not threatening my country. Here we go again. I hate re-runs. Eisboch |
Gas prices .. some good news
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Gas prices .. some good news
Canuck57 wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message ... Eisboch wrote: "Boater" wrote in message ... Eisboch wrote: "JR North" wrote in message ... Gas your pigs up while you can. Not gonna tow Cruis'n Rulz! to the pump. Gonna just get 5 gal at a time and fill her up at home. Don't expect the prices will hold till next spring. If you wait, you might just find it back to $4 JR Nobody likes a spoilsport. You're gonna give "O" some ideas of things to raise taxes on in order to force you to buy an oversized golf cart which is what he's gonna force Ford, GM and Chrysler to build if they want a bailout. Eisboch Heaven forbid U.S. car makers produce mostly high quality, smaller, fuel efficient cars that people want to buy and dump most of the oversized, overpowered, mediocre quality V8's behemoths that get 13 mpg. Or less. Again, you get it wrong. If the vast majority of people wanted to buy smaller, fuel efficient cars, Detroit would have been be turning them out by the millions for years. That may change (and it should), but the point is .... Detroit builds what people buy. Eisboch Apparently Detroit builds what people don't what to buy. Actually have a car dealership finance manager in the family. Inside word is that they have buyers, but credit bounces. Basically you need sufficient collateral, job or cash with a good rating. Just like 40 years ago. They are losing 9/10 sales this way. I guess part of this is that a good part of the debt financed middle class is bankrupt. I believe they tried to live beyond their means, at least in the US, by using the perceived or believed value of their home as a checking account. Now they are fat in the belly with memories of lavish vacations and a mountain of debt. |
Gas prices .. some good news
Boater wrote:
Eisboch wrote: "Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in message ... On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:51:05 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along with his pension. And, this is really a ****er, now GM wants the US Taxpayer to dig them out of the health care hole by paying for the ridiculous health care packages for their retireees. So now we have GM begging some working stiff who works, pays taxes and either doesn't have a health package or only Major Medical at an exhorbitant rate to sponsor some moron who put four screws in a dashboard for most of his life and was paid $34/hr plus benefits for doing so and now has a $4 co-pay for everything health care related. Here's what I think GM should do - pre-pack a Chapter 11 bankruptcy, get rid of the ridiculous union contracts and start over again with government backing (not loans) with reasonable labor costs and competitive products. That will do more for the American economy than any TARP. Actually, I screwed the facts up. The guy wasn't making $85K per year. He was making $85 per hour, including base pay and cost of benefits. Hmmm... 85 times 40hrs/week times 56 weeks ..... not bad! As mentioned in a previous post, I agree with the Duck and you. The solution to the auto industry's problems is Chapter 11 and reorganization, not a taxpayer financed bailout. Eisboch Fifty six weeks, eh? I presume you had a hired bookkeeper. When you are retired you pretty much don't need a clock or calender. But you knew that, I'm sure. |
Gas prices .. some good news
"Boater" wrote in message ... Eisboch wrote: "Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in message ... On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:51:05 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along with his pension. And, this is really a ****er, now GM wants the US Taxpayer to dig them out of the health care hole by paying for the ridiculous health care packages for their retireees. So now we have GM begging some working stiff who works, pays taxes and either doesn't have a health package or only Major Medical at an exhorbitant rate to sponsor some moron who put four screws in a dashboard for most of his life and was paid $34/hr plus benefits for doing so and now has a $4 co-pay for everything health care related. Here's what I think GM should do - pre-pack a Chapter 11 bankruptcy, get rid of the ridiculous union contracts and start over again with government backing (not loans) with reasonable labor costs and competitive products. That will do more for the American economy than any TARP. Actually, I screwed the facts up. The guy wasn't making $85K per year. He was making $85 per hour, including base pay and cost of benefits. Hmmm... 85 times 40hrs/week times 56 weeks ..... not bad! As mentioned in a previous post, I agree with the Duck and you. The solution to the auto industry's problems is Chapter 11 and reorganization, not a taxpayer financed bailout. Eisboch Fifty six weeks, eh? I presume you had a hired bookkeeper. Vacation. Eisboch |
Gas prices .. some good news
Boater wrote:
Eisboch wrote: "Canuck57" wrote in message ... I am going to keep my F150 thank you. Nice ride and pulls a boat and has 4x4 for the winter. Try that with a pint sized electric car up a long hill. Harry had a F-150 not too long ago and often reported in this NG what a great truck it was. That's before he sharpened his political correctness. Now a US made truck is crap because he owns a Japanese model. Eisboch I haven't owned an F150 for nearly 10 years. It was a good truck. The Toyota truck that replaced it was better. I doubt I ever stated the US-made truck was "crap." I have heard those sorts of allegations, however, from SW Tom and I believe from you. My F-150 is a great truck. Good pulling power but, you need a gasoline tanker to follow you. I even smashed up the right front back in 04 and it was mechanically fixed extremely well. Still has the same replacement tire on the right front. The biggest problem was scraping off all of the damn union built stickers on the windows when I first got it home from the dealer. |
Gas prices .. some good news
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Gas prices .. some good news
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:42:23 -0500, Eisboch wrote:
wrote in message t... Tough call. I don't like these bailouts, but can we afford not to? In this country, 1 in 10 jobs are connected to the auto industry. If the auto companies fail, we're talking depression, not recession. All of this, could get real scary, real quick. This may sound harsh, but I am just about convinced that we are beyond any form of healthy avenues for recovery. The reasons are varied and there's plenty of blame to pass around, including the consumer. At this point though, it just doesn't matter. Assigning blame doesn't fix the problems. I think we may just have to bite the bullet, allow Banks, Investment firms, GM, GMAC, Ford, Ford Motor Credit and Chrysler (whoever they are now-a-days) to file Chapter 11 bankrupcy, reorganize and start again. That will unfortunatly cause bankrupcies in many supporting industrys but they are currently structured to support what exists now, not as it should be. Everyone is jumping on the bailout bandwagon. American Express just filed to become a bank, thereby qualifying for some of the bailout money to cover bad accounts. That's too much. Enough. Like a hurricane every 100 years or so, it is going to require cleaning out the deadwood before the forests can grow again. Eisboch A part of me agrees with you. The deadwood needs to be gone, but I just can't accept the "collateral damage". If we let the companies you mentioned fail, we are talking breadlines. One of the reasons for the Great Depression was Hoover's hands-off approach. I don't like these bailouts, but they may be cheaper in the long run. |
Gas prices .. some good news
"BAR" wrote in message ... I believe they tried to live beyond their means, at least in the US, by using the perceived or believed value of their home as a checking account. Now they are fat in the belly with memories of lavish vacations and a mountain of debt. Someone made a similar observation on one of the cable news interviews yesterday. I forget who it was, but (I think it was a woman) she also pointed out that we have a whole generation now-a-days with no direct contact to the Depression years. She pointed out that in the past, families sat around at the dinner table with grandma or grandpa describing in real terms what the Great Depression was like. The stories had an impact on the financial management of the next generation's money and income. Now, the stories of life in the Great Depression are read in history books only and have about as much influence on people as stories of the Pilgrims landing on Plymouth Rock. Eisboch |
Gas prices .. some good news
"D.Duck" wrote in message ... "Canuck57" wrote in message ... "D.Duck" wrote in message ... "Eisboch" wrote in message ... When Bush first took office the national average price for a gallon of regular gas was $1.46. Today, eight years later, regular is selling around here for about $2.21/gal. In some places, like Cleveland, Ohio, the price has dropped below 2 bucks/gal. Not bad for 8 years. Nice job, W. Eisboch (the facts are true, the rest is a joke to yank a few chains) The lower gas prices are nice. It's the rest of the *world* economy I'm worried about. Insightful. It is really called deflation. The opposite of inflation. With the market loosing so much value, people losing jobs, the prices people will pay is going with it. The right "sustainable" price for oil would be about $70-85 barrel. Sounds good at first glance, but it is in reality a sure sign of depression. It means that homes will further decrease in value and even more people will "walk away" from their debts. In effect, the US economy value is equalizing to India, China, South America... This will lead to total collapse as how does the US government pay for a 12 trillion debt in an outright stalled economy? Government prints money like a crack junky shoots dope. Add the insatiable spend-crazy lust for governments to bail out companies like GM and the banks paints a bleak picture for the US economy. Very bleak indeed. Every time the government announces a bail out we get a market tumble. My hope is that the GM/Ford/Chrysler problems are resolved (if resolvable) in bankruptcy, not throwing more tax payer dollars at them. Not likely for GM. I haven't looked at Chrysler or Ford, but GM is so far in debt I would deem it impossible for them to get out and survive. In at least chapter 11 is inevitable one way or another. Even if they get $50 billion, at their current burn rate and prior obligations being deferred, that will not last long. And there isn't room for 3 any more. What will they do with the cars they make that no one buys? Pile them up across the country and let them rust? The middle class is out of gas with credit and until that balance of equity gets greater than the debt any half brained investor is going to see them as bankrupt be it declared or not. GM needs to go down if it can't pay the bills. Makes room for others to survive and produce products people will use. GM as a brand will survive, sold as part of it's liquidation. Choice profitable models and brands will still be made. |
Gas prices .. some good news
"Eisboch" wrote in message ... "D.Duck" wrote in message ... My hope is that the GM/Ford/Chrysler problems are resolved (if resolvable) in bankruptcy, not throwing more tax payer dollars at them. Duck, I couldn't agree with you more. Chapter 11 isn't permanent. It allows for "reorganization" which is exactly what the auto industry needs to do right now. Revise business plans, products and re-negotiate the union contracts under the watchful eye of a bankruptcy judge. Handing them a pile of taxpayer money, calling it a government "investment" just to keep them in business under their current organizational structures won't do a damn thing. Eisboch I agree. But one should view these as government taxes to prop up business. One way or another it is going to be main street taxes propping up these businesses that refuse to change to the times. There have been promises of profitability for decades than have fallen by the wayside. Relief isn't what they need, chapter 11 is the start of real change. |
Gas prices .. some good news
"Boater" wrote in message ... Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:12:16 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: "D.Duck" wrote in message ... My hope is that the GM/Ford/Chrysler problems are resolved (if resolvable) in bankruptcy, not throwing more tax payer dollars at them. Duck, I couldn't agree with you more. Chapter 11 isn't permanent. It allows for "reorganization" which is exactly what the auto industry needs to do right now. Revise business plans, products and re-negotiate the union contracts under the watchful eye of a bankruptcy judge. Handing them a pile of taxpayer money, calling it a government "investment" just to keep them in business under their current organizational structures won't do a damn thing. I agree. I think the bailouts should be stopped dead until the Bush Administration reveals who has gotten every dollar handed out so far. I am sure at this point, Obama is aware of the spending. Last I heard he supports it. |
Gas prices .. some good news
Boater wrote:
Jim wrote: Boater wrote: Jim wrote: wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 11:38:58 +0000, Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:12:16 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: "D.Duck" wrote in message ... My hope is that the GM/Ford/Chrysler problems are resolved (if resolvable) in bankruptcy, not throwing more tax payer dollars at them. Duck, I couldn't agree with you more. Chapter 11 isn't permanent. It allows for "reorganization" which is exactly what the auto industry needs to do right now. Revise business plans, products and re-negotiate the union contracts under the watchful eye of a bankruptcy judge. Handing them a pile of taxpayer money, calling it a government "investment" just to keep them in business under their current organizational structures won't do a damn thing. I agree. Tough call. I don't like these bailouts, but can we afford not to? In this country, 1 in 10 jobs are connected to the auto industry. If the auto companies fail, we're talking depression, not recession. All of this, could get real scary, real quick. Busting the unions should be a requisite part of any bailout plan. Otherwise they will be back again in a few years looking for another handout. It's time we earn from our mistakes and stop repeating them. This from a guy whose career highlight was cleaning the heads aboard a navy ship? We used to send numb-nuts like you all over the ship looking for replacements for burned out headlights. No, you didn't. I wasn't dumb enough to get drafted, or, in lieu of that, join up, so I could kill Asians who were not threatening my country. I don't think there is person reading this news group that isn't aware of your cowardice. Why do you keep bringing it up? |
Gas prices .. some good news
Eisboch wrote:
Boater wrote: I think the bailouts should be stopped dead until the Bush Administration reveals who has gotten every dollar handed out so far. I agree with you. I am not sure where the problem lies. We were supposed to have an oversight report issued to the public by now, as required by the Congress written and passed legislation on this bailout package. Problem is, they haven't appointed anyone to the oversight position yet. I don't blame Bush singularly. The whole stinking pile of incompetents in Wash DC should be tarred and feathered. Eisboch Here here. Let's do it. |
Gas prices .. some good news
wrote in message t... On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 11:38:58 +0000, Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:12:16 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: "D.Duck" wrote in message news:G_Odnc2FKtknEYbUnZ2dnUVZ_tfinZ2d@giganews. com... My hope is that the GM/Ford/Chrysler problems are resolved (if resolvable) in bankruptcy, not throwing more tax payer dollars at them. Duck, I couldn't agree with you more. Chapter 11 isn't permanent. It allows for "reorganization" which is exactly what the auto industry needs to do right now. Revise business plans, products and re-negotiate the union contracts under the watchful eye of a bankruptcy judge. Handing them a pile of taxpayer money, calling it a government "investment" just to keep them in business under their current organizational structures won't do a damn thing. I agree. Tough call. I don't like these bailouts, but can we afford not to? In this country, 1 in 10 jobs are connected to the auto industry. If the auto companies fail, we're talking depression, not recession. All of this, could get real scary, real quick. I will argue yes, they can afford not to bail them out. When GM is gone, there will be holes left. It will not take long before a capitalist will buy up a plant or two, fire it back up and make money and parts/cars. For example, if GM goes down, say Ford picks up the brand image for $200 million on the cheap. Many ex-GM buyers will start to buy more Fords. The problem is excess capacity driving costs nuts. Yet GM/Chrysler/Ford can't downsize or the lower cash flow will cause them to miss their obligations. There isn't room for 3 any more. In fact, it might go down to one. Another possibility, in chapter 11 they can be sold off. Say chapter 11 lets GM off of the union issues, lets them fix the financial issues. And say 5 billionaires get together and buy it out for $25 billion on a clean slate, fire dysfunctional management, send the union packing, and then rebuild a lean mean high quality GM without the baggage that caused the problem. Having the tax system hurt everyone a little also gives everyone a little less to spend on cars, further reducing the market. Moving GMs problems to main street tax payers is counter productive as government inefficiencies make it a loser. When main street pays you still have the fundamental problems in GM waiting money. |
Gas prices .. some good news
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 13:22:10 GMT, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote: Why does the UAW have an advantage over everybody else. Because the Detroit auto industry with their usual short term focus never bit the bullet, took the big strike and said enough is enough. The UAW was also fairly clever with their tactics, always going after the weak sister among the big 3, who ever that happened to be at the time. |
Gas prices .. some good news
Jim wrote:
Boater wrote: Jim wrote: Boater wrote: Jim wrote: wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 11:38:58 +0000, Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:12:16 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: "D.Duck" wrote in message ... My hope is that the GM/Ford/Chrysler problems are resolved (if resolvable) in bankruptcy, not throwing more tax payer dollars at them. Duck, I couldn't agree with you more. Chapter 11 isn't permanent. It allows for "reorganization" which is exactly what the auto industry needs to do right now. Revise business plans, products and re-negotiate the union contracts under the watchful eye of a bankruptcy judge. Handing them a pile of taxpayer money, calling it a government "investment" just to keep them in business under their current organizational structures won't do a damn thing. I agree. Tough call. I don't like these bailouts, but can we afford not to? In this country, 1 in 10 jobs are connected to the auto industry. If the auto companies fail, we're talking depression, not recession. All of this, could get real scary, real quick. Busting the unions should be a requisite part of any bailout plan. Otherwise they will be back again in a few years looking for another handout. It's time we earn from our mistakes and stop repeating them. This from a guy whose career highlight was cleaning the heads aboard a navy ship? We used to send numb-nuts like you all over the ship looking for replacements for burned out headlights. No, you didn't. I wasn't dumb enough to get drafted, or, in lieu of that, join up, so I could kill Asians who were not threatening my country. I don't think there is person reading this news group that isn't aware of your cowardice. Why do you keep bringing it up? Tell me, Jim...what sort of "bravery" is required to go off to a country not threatening ours, and bomb, shoot up and otherwise destroy it? |
Gas prices .. some good news
Boater wrote:
Jim wrote: Boater wrote: Don White wrote: "Jim" wrote in message ... Come on asshole. There is nothing wrong with EARNING high pay and being showered with benefits. There is no incentive for union employees to EARN their keep. They get paid the same *weather* they do excellent work, mediocre work, or no work. Have you found that little surprise on the Union web site yet? I wish I could be there when you discover it. Weather?? What has the *weather* got to do with it? Management are the villians here. If you don't think so...go check out their compensation package for leading their company down the drain. Hey...it's FloridaJim. He couldn't get a job as a hodcarrier's apprentice. You two asses can't get out of each others butts can you. While you are spell checking, look up villions and hodcarrier's. It's your job to educate your dombfoch Canadian buddy; not high five him every time he catches a spelling mistake. WAFA What's a villion, FloridaJim? Something you learned about while chipping paint in the navy? I know what a hod carrier does, which is why I pointed out you didn't have the skills to be a hod carrier's apprentice. Additionally, it's manly work. That would exclude a loser like you. Ask your buddy. He said it. Thank you for correction your own spelling error. You like to watch men doing manly things, don't you. Join in and break a sweat once in a while. It won't kill you. |
Gas prices .. some good news
Eisboch wrote:
"Jim" wrote in message ... Boater wrote: This from a guy whose career highlight was cleaning the heads aboard a navy ship? We used to send numb-nuts like you all over the ship looking for replacements for burned out headlights. Or a replacement fallopian tube for one of the transmitters. Eisboch :-) Or a bucket of ohms. Ah, the good old days. |
Gas prices .. some good news
Jim wrote:
Eisboch wrote: "Jim" wrote in message ... Boater wrote: This from a guy whose career highlight was cleaning the heads aboard a navy ship? We used to send numb-nuts like you all over the ship looking for replacements for burned out headlights. Or a replacement fallopian tube for one of the transmitters. Eisboch :-) Or a bucket of ohms. Ah, the good old days. Simple gags for simple minds. |
Gas prices .. some good news
BAR wrote:
Boater wrote: Eisboch wrote: "Canuck57" wrote in message ... I am going to keep my F150 thank you. Nice ride and pulls a boat and has 4x4 for the winter. Try that with a pint sized electric car up a long hill. Harry had a F-150 not too long ago and often reported in this NG what a great truck it was. That's before he sharpened his political correctness. Now a US made truck is crap because he owns a Japanese model. Eisboch I haven't owned an F150 for nearly 10 years. It was a good truck. The Toyota truck that replaced it was better. I doubt I ever stated the US-made truck was "crap." I have heard those sorts of allegations, however, from SW Tom and I believe from you. My F-150 is a great truck. Good pulling power but, you need a gasoline tanker to follow you. I even smashed up the right front back in 04 and it was mechanically fixed extremely well. Still has the same replacement tire on the right front. The biggest problem was scraping off all of the damn union built stickers on the windows when I first got it home from the dealer. Remember in clothing ads where they used to sing "Look for the union label" |
Gas prices .. some good news
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Gas prices .. some good news
Boater wrote:
Jim wrote: Boater wrote: Jim wrote: Boater wrote: Jim wrote: wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 11:38:58 +0000, Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:12:16 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: "D.Duck" wrote in message ... My hope is that the GM/Ford/Chrysler problems are resolved (if resolvable) in bankruptcy, not throwing more tax payer dollars at them. Duck, I couldn't agree with you more. Chapter 11 isn't permanent. It allows for "reorganization" which is exactly what the auto industry needs to do right now. Revise business plans, products and re-negotiate the union contracts under the watchful eye of a bankruptcy judge. Handing them a pile of taxpayer money, calling it a government "investment" just to keep them in business under their current organizational structures won't do a damn thing. I agree. Tough call. I don't like these bailouts, but can we afford not to? In this country, 1 in 10 jobs are connected to the auto industry. If the auto companies fail, we're talking depression, not recession. All of this, could get real scary, real quick. Busting the unions should be a requisite part of any bailout plan. Otherwise they will be back again in a few years looking for another handout. It's time we earn from our mistakes and stop repeating them. This from a guy whose career highlight was cleaning the heads aboard a navy ship? We used to send numb-nuts like you all over the ship looking for replacements for burned out headlights. No, you didn't. I wasn't dumb enough to get drafted, or, in lieu of that, join up, so I could kill Asians who were not threatening my country. I don't think there is person reading this news group that isn't aware of your cowardice. Why do you keep bringing it up? Tell me, Jim...what sort of "bravery" is required to go off to a country not threatening ours, and bomb, shoot up and otherwise destroy it? I don't owe you an explanation. I just can't understand you boasting about being a coward. And then repeatedly reposting it. Get over it. |
Gas prices .. some good news
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 10:09:51 -0500, BAR wrote:
wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:12:13 -0500, Jim wrote: Busting the unions should be a requisite part of any bailout plan. Otherwise they will be back again in a few years looking for another handout. It's time we earn from our mistakes and stop repeating them. What union is looking for a handout? I've heard lots of CEOs whining for help. If Ford, GM and Chrysler go bankrupt then the unions are all SOL and the companies are free to negotiate brand new contracts or maybe no contracts with union labor. If the companies are smart they will move to right to work states and screw the unions all together. They are probably smarter than that. They'll move the jobs to Mexico and China. --Vic |
Gas prices .. some good news
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Gas prices .. some good news
Boater wrote:
Jim wrote: Eisboch wrote: "Jim" wrote in message ... Boater wrote: This from a guy whose career highlight was cleaning the heads aboard a navy ship? We used to send numb-nuts like you all over the ship looking for replacements for burned out headlights. Or a replacement fallopian tube for one of the transmitters. Eisboch :-) Or a bucket of ohms. Ah, the good old days. Simple gags for simple minds. WAFA |
Gas prices .. some good news
On Nov 13, 8:38*am, Boater wrote:
Eisboch wrote: "Boater" wrote in message ... Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: I'll give you an example. *My back operation cost $14,356 in total which was cheap considering that the main surgeon and assistant were freebies. *That includes room, operating room, drugs, anesthesia, yada, yada, yada. My copay for that was $2,300. A UAW retiree, the guy who put four screws in the afore mentioned dashboard for his career, for that same operation, which would have included surgeon and assistant fees totaling about $21,000, would have been $4. A pre-packaged Chapter1 bankruptcy would allow for restructuring the health care provisions to something a little more reasonable. "Restructurings" usually are much harder on the working stiffs than the management pukes. And why should a retiree on a fixed income have to fork over $2300 for necessary surgery? It's called a deductable Harry, something anyone should be prepared for and also reduces health care premiums somewhat. * I'll bet the overall savings in premium payments by having a reasonable deductable more than covers the $2,300 over the longer term. * In major, long term illnesses, the deductable is usually capped on a yearly basis, last time I checked. One more time: most retirees on fixed incomes cannot afford to lay out $2300 for necessary surgery. You're a rich retiree. Your perspective is not relevant to retirees who are trying to decide whether to buy food or medicine because they cannot afford both. BS. My Dad is a retired non-union blue collar worker who is living on a fixed income. He's had two surgeries in the last five years that have cost him, out of pocket, more than $2300. He could afford it because he lived within his means and socked away money while he was working. He knew he'd have to take care of himself, and didn't expect anyone else to do it for him. My wife and I are doing the same, with a retirement goal set and we're well on our way. Obama better not lay a finger on my retirement accounts. |
Gas prices .. some good news
|
Gas prices .. some good news
On Nov 13, 2:38*am, "Eisboch" wrote:
I don't consider UAW members "slobs", *but I agree with his overall assesment. I was a bit over the top with that. I don't really blame the workers, they're just taking advantage of the high-paying jobs available to them. The UAW is specifically the one to blame here, by forcing the automakers into paying this kind of money to unskilled workers, ultimately bringing about the death of the entire American auto industry. It's past time to break the unions and come back to reality. They've outlived their usefulness, and turned into leeches on society as a whole. |
Gas prices .. some good news
On Nov 13, 10:43*am, Jim wrote:
wrote: On Nov 13, 8:38 am, Boater wrote: Eisboch wrote: "Boater" wrote in message ... Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: I'll give you an example. *My back operation cost $14,356 in total which was cheap considering that the main surgeon and assistant were freebies. *That includes room, operating room, drugs, anesthesia, yada, yada, yada. My copay for that was $2,300. A UAW retiree, the guy who put four screws in the afore mentioned dashboard for his career, for that same operation, which would have included surgeon and assistant fees totaling about $21,000, would have been $4. A pre-packaged Chapter1 bankruptcy would allow for restructuring the health care provisions to something a little more reasonable. "Restructurings" usually are much harder on the working stiffs than the management pukes. And why should a retiree on a fixed income have to fork over $2300 for necessary surgery? It's called a deductable Harry, something anyone should be prepared for and also reduces health care premiums somewhat. * I'll bet the overall savings in premium payments by having a reasonable deductable more than covers the $2,300 over the longer term. * In major, long term illnesses, the deductable is usually capped on a yearly basis, last time I checked. One more time: most retirees on fixed incomes cannot afford to lay out $2300 for necessary surgery. You're a rich retiree. Your perspective is not relevant to retirees who are trying to decide whether to buy food or medicine because they cannot afford both. BS. *My Dad is a retired non-union blue collar worker who is living on a fixed income. *He's had two surgeries in the last five years that have cost him, out of pocket, more than $2300. *He could afford it because he lived within his means and socked away money while he was working. *He knew he'd have to take care of himself, and didn't expect anyone else to do it for him. My wife and I are doing the same, with a retirement goal set and we're well on our way. *Obama better not lay a finger on my retirement accounts. In this day and age, self sufficiency is looked upon as a social disease. Notice the glares you get from liberals, if you mention it- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Please quit lumping all liberals in one catagory. I'm liberal, and I'm all for self sufficiency. |
Gas prices .. some good news
"Vic Smith" wrote in message ... On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 10:09:51 -0500, BAR wrote: If Ford, GM and Chrysler go bankrupt then the unions are all SOL and the companies are free to negotiate brand new contracts or maybe no contracts with union labor. If the companies are smart they will move to right to work states and screw the unions all together. They are probably smarter than that. They'll move the jobs to Mexico and China. --Vic Just think of the book possibilities: "The Rise and Fall of the American Automobile Industry ..... from Henry Ford, then Unions and finally China". Eisboch |
Gas prices .. some good news
|
Gas prices .. some good news
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:42:23 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote: wrote in message et... Tough call. I don't like these bailouts, but can we afford not to? In this country, 1 in 10 jobs are connected to the auto industry. If the auto companies fail, we're talking depression, not recession. All of this, could get real scary, real quick. This may sound harsh, but I am just about convinced that we are beyond any form of healthy avenues for recovery. The reasons are varied and there's plenty of blame to pass around, including the consumer. At this point though, it just doesn't matter. Assigning blame doesn't fix the problems. I think we may just have to bite the bullet, allow Banks, Investment firms, GM, GMAC, Ford, Ford Motor Credit and Chrysler (whoever they are now-a-days) to file Chapter 11 bankrupcy, reorganize and start again. That will unfortunatly cause bankrupcies in many supporting industrys but they are currently structured to support what exists now, not as it should be. Everyone is jumping on the bailout bandwagon. American Express just filed to become a bank, thereby qualifying for some of the bailout money to cover bad accounts. That's too much. Enough. Like a hurricane every 100 years or so, it is going to require cleaning out the deadwood before the forests can grow again. Damn straight. |
Gas prices .. some good news
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 06:48:22 GMT, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote: I still maintain that we can have our cake and eat it too. All we need to do is switch to diesel/electric trucks and do the same for the bigger cars. I read something the other day about GE's Evolution diesel/electric locomotive, 12 cylinder turbo charged diesel engine producing 6300 BHP and something like 6000 THP (traction wheel horsepower) which can move a ridiculous amount of freight (in the order of 50 million pounds or something like that - might even have been higher) 6 miles on one gallon of diesel fuel. I think you misspelled 6 gallons per mile. A diesel will typically burn 1/3 of a pound per hour per horsepower. Or more than a ton an hour in this case. Three hundred gallons per hour would require a speed of 1800 MPH to get six miles per gallon. Never happen. And it will haul only as much as 11/2 to 2 regular locos. 250 100 ton cars? Which would come to 25 000 tons.? If the cars are 100 tons, and a hundred feet long, the train would be almost five miles long. Unlikely even with twenty or thirty locos. You can't convince that the lessons learned in developing that type of transportation power can't be used in developing a diesel/electric capable of moving a F-350 around town efficiently. :) Diesel electric is not particularly efficient. It allows starts with very heavy loads without frying a clutch, which is why they use it. It is heavy which matters with a truck. Casady |
Gas prices .. some good news
Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 22:40:09 -0500, tin cup wrote: The average wage was around 58,000.00 a year. That's misleading, benefits add at least another 20,000. That is pretty good pay for unskiled labor, about 2 or 3 times what most factory workers get. It was not a defined researched absolute fact. The 58,000.00 figure depends on who and when you here it from. That was for the general population. I don't begrudge them the benefits. The "college graduate" think his deploma and job to manipulate people entitle him and only his class to a decent living. I turned down many many college graduates for jobs because they were not willing to learn the job or do the work. They think the piece of paper entitles them to lead and manipulate people and not work. The majority of these elitist attitudes can not or would not do the work. Aparently they hire more of their kind as they advance. They have the attitude of Wall Street where the Masters should make all the profit and the Employees are not worthy of their hire. Let them eat cake. |
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