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Gas prices .. some good news
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 03:59:47 -0500, "D.Duck" wrote:
"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in message ... On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 00:30:19 -0500, Wayne.B wrote: snip Taxi drivers there told me they got 34 mph on average - which is pretty damn decent. Are you sure is wasn't kilometers per *hour*. Or maybe kilometer's per liter? I know, I know, you're not used to being up so late. 8) Yeah - and I'm up early after being up late. This sucks. And it's your fault. |
Gas prices .. some good news
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:51:05 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote: His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along with his pension. And, this is really a ****er, now GM wants the US Taxpayer to dig them out of the health care hole by paying for the ridiculous health care packages for their retireees. So now we have GM begging some working stiff who works, pays taxes and either doesn't have a health package or only Major Medical at an exhorbitant rate to sponsor some moron who put four screws in a dashboard for most of his life and was paid $34/hr plus benefits for doing so and now has a $4 co-pay for everything health care related. Here's what I think GM should do - pre-pack a Chapter 11 bankruptcy, get rid of the ridiculous union contracts and start over again with government backing (not loans) with reasonable labor costs and competitive products. That will do more for the American economy than any TARP. |
Gas prices .. some good news
"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in message ... On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 03:59:47 -0500, "D.Duck" wrote: "Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in message ... On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 00:30:19 -0500, Wayne.B wrote: snip Taxi drivers there told me they got 34 mph on average - which is pretty damn decent. Are you sure is wasn't kilometers per *hour*. Or maybe kilometer's per liter? I know, I know, you're not used to being up so late. 8) Yeah - and I'm up early after being up late. This sucks. And it's your fault. I accept the blame with grace and .... |
Gas prices .. some good news
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:12:16 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote: "D.Duck" wrote in message m... My hope is that the GM/Ford/Chrysler problems are resolved (if resolvable) in bankruptcy, not throwing more tax payer dollars at them. Duck, I couldn't agree with you more. Chapter 11 isn't permanent. It allows for "reorganization" which is exactly what the auto industry needs to do right now. Revise business plans, products and re-negotiate the union contracts under the watchful eye of a bankruptcy judge. Handing them a pile of taxpayer money, calling it a government "investment" just to keep them in business under their current organizational structures won't do a damn thing. I agree. |
Gas prices .. some good news
Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:51:05 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along with his pension. And, this is really a ****er, now GM wants the US Taxpayer to dig them out of the health care hole by paying for the ridiculous health care packages for their retireees. So now we have GM begging some working stiff who works, pays taxes and either doesn't have a health package or only Major Medical at an exhorbitant rate to sponsor some moron who put four screws in a dashboard for most of his life and was paid $34/hr plus benefits for doing so and now has a $4 co-pay for everything health care related. Here's what I think GM should do - pre-pack a Chapter 11 bankruptcy, get rid of the ridiculous union contracts and start over again with government backing (not loans) with reasonable labor costs and competitive products. That will do more for the American economy than any TARP. And perhaps like Japan, put the burden of paying for health care on society as a whole, and not on the manufacturers, eh? Would you go for that, too? |
Gas prices .. some good news
Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:12:16 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: "D.Duck" wrote in message ... My hope is that the GM/Ford/Chrysler problems are resolved (if resolvable) in bankruptcy, not throwing more tax payer dollars at them. Duck, I couldn't agree with you more. Chapter 11 isn't permanent. It allows for "reorganization" which is exactly what the auto industry needs to do right now. Revise business plans, products and re-negotiate the union contracts under the watchful eye of a bankruptcy judge. Handing them a pile of taxpayer money, calling it a government "investment" just to keep them in business under their current organizational structures won't do a damn thing. I agree. I think the bailouts should be stopped dead until the Bush Administration reveals who has gotten every dollar handed out so far. |
Gas prices .. some good news
Boater wrote:
Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:12:16 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: "D.Duck" wrote in message ... My hope is that the GM/Ford/Chrysler problems are resolved (if resolvable) in bankruptcy, not throwing more tax payer dollars at them. Duck, I couldn't agree with you more. Chapter 11 isn't permanent. It allows for "reorganization" which is exactly what the auto industry needs to do right now. Revise business plans, products and re-negotiate the union contracts under the watchful eye of a bankruptcy judge. Handing them a pile of taxpayer money, calling it a government "investment" just to keep them in business under their current organizational structures won't do a damn thing. I agree. I think the bailouts should be stopped dead until the Bush Administration reveals who has gotten every dollar handed out so far. For once you have a good idea. If the unions are requires to make public their business expenses and employee salaries, so should the government when they hand out gobs of money to poorly managed businesses. |
Gas prices .. some good news
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 06:41:51 -0500, Boater
wrote: Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:51:05 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along with his pension. And, this is really a ****er, now GM wants the US Taxpayer to dig them out of the health care hole by paying for the ridiculous health care packages for their retireees. So now we have GM begging some working stiff who works, pays taxes and either doesn't have a health package or only Major Medical at an exhorbitant rate to sponsor some moron who put four screws in a dashboard for most of his life and was paid $34/hr plus benefits for doing so and now has a $4 co-pay for everything health care related. Here's what I think GM should do - pre-pack a Chapter 11 bankruptcy, get rid of the ridiculous union contracts and start over again with government backing (not loans) with reasonable labor costs and competitive products. That will do more for the American economy than any TARP. And perhaps like Japan, put the burden of paying for health care on society as a whole, and not on the manufacturers, eh? Would you go for that, too? Not at all, but let's face it - the health care provisions of the retirement package are onerous to the health of the corporation. I'll give you an example. My back operation cost $14,356 in total which was cheap considering that the main surgeon and assistant were freebies. That includes room, operating room, drugs, anesthesia, yada, yada, yada. My copay for that was $2,300. A UAW retiree, the guy who put four screws in the afore mentioned dashboard for his career, for that same operation, which would have included surgeon and assistant fees totaling about $21,000, would have been $4. A pre-packaged Chapter1 bankruptcy would allow for restructuring the health care provisions to something a little more reasonable. |
Gas prices .. some good news
Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 06:41:51 -0500, Boater wrote: Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:51:05 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along with his pension. And, this is really a ****er, now GM wants the US Taxpayer to dig them out of the health care hole by paying for the ridiculous health care packages for their retireees. So now we have GM begging some working stiff who works, pays taxes and either doesn't have a health package or only Major Medical at an exhorbitant rate to sponsor some moron who put four screws in a dashboard for most of his life and was paid $34/hr plus benefits for doing so and now has a $4 co-pay for everything health care related. Here's what I think GM should do - pre-pack a Chapter 11 bankruptcy, get rid of the ridiculous union contracts and start over again with government backing (not loans) with reasonable labor costs and competitive products. That will do more for the American economy than any TARP. And perhaps like Japan, put the burden of paying for health care on society as a whole, and not on the manufacturers, eh? Would you go for that, too? Not at all, but let's face it - the health care provisions of the retirement package are onerous to the health of the corporation. I'll give you an example. My back operation cost $14,356 in total which was cheap considering that the main surgeon and assistant were freebies. That includes room, operating room, drugs, anesthesia, yada, yada, yada. My copay for that was $2,300. A UAW retiree, the guy who put four screws in the afore mentioned dashboard for his career, for that same operation, which would have included surgeon and assistant fees totaling about $21,000, would have been $4. A pre-packaged Chapter1 bankruptcy would allow for restructuring the health care provisions to something a little more reasonable. "Restructurings" usually are much harder on the working stiffs than the management pukes. And why should a retiree on a fixed income have to fork over $2300 for necessary surgery? I agree that the burden of paying for necessary health care should be lifted from US corporations, and handled the way it is in other modern countries. I'm also a bit wearing of hearing about Joe the Auto Assembly Line Worker, whose career consisted of putting four screws in a dashboard. If that is all Joe does, and it is unlikely, then that is the job management wants done. It isn't his fault. I haven't been in an auto plant in many years, but when I was last in one, I didn't see any jobs like that, and all the jobs I saw were certainly more valuable than being, oh, a stock broker or plumbing supply dealer or software pussy. |
Gas prices .. some good news
"Boater" wrote in message ... Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:51:05 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along with his pension. And, this is really a ****er, now GM wants the US Taxpayer to dig them out of the health care hole by paying for the ridiculous health care packages for their retireees. So now we have GM begging some working stiff who works, pays taxes and either doesn't have a health package or only Major Medical at an exhorbitant rate to sponsor some moron who put four screws in a dashboard for most of his life and was paid $34/hr plus benefits for doing so and now has a $4 co-pay for everything health care related. Here's what I think GM should do - pre-pack a Chapter 11 bankruptcy, get rid of the ridiculous union contracts and start over again with government backing (not loans) with reasonable labor costs and competitive products. That will do more for the American economy than any TARP. And perhaps like Japan, put the burden of paying for health care on society as a whole, and not on the manufacturers, eh? Would you go for that, too? Where does the manufacturer's money come from? It comes from *society as a whole*. Society pays for everything, be it through higher prices for goods, services or taxes. |
Gas prices .. some good news
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 11:38:58 +0000, Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:12:16 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: "D.Duck" wrote in message om... My hope is that the GM/Ford/Chrysler problems are resolved (if resolvable) in bankruptcy, not throwing more tax payer dollars at them. Duck, I couldn't agree with you more. Chapter 11 isn't permanent. It allows for "reorganization" which is exactly what the auto industry needs to do right now. Revise business plans, products and re-negotiate the union contracts under the watchful eye of a bankruptcy judge. Handing them a pile of taxpayer money, calling it a government "investment" just to keep them in business under their current organizational structures won't do a damn thing. I agree. Tough call. I don't like these bailouts, but can we afford not to? In this country, 1 in 10 jobs are connected to the auto industry. If the auto companies fail, we're talking depression, not recession. All of this, could get real scary, real quick. |
Gas prices .. some good news
Boater wrote:
Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 06:41:51 -0500, Boater wrote: Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:51:05 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along with his pension. And, this is really a ****er, now GM wants the US Taxpayer to dig them out of the health care hole by paying for the ridiculous health care packages for their retireees. So now we have GM begging some working stiff who works, pays taxes and either doesn't have a health package or only Major Medical at an exhorbitant rate to sponsor some moron who put four screws in a dashboard for most of his life and was paid $34/hr plus benefits for doing so and now has a $4 co-pay for everything health care related. Here's what I think GM should do - pre-pack a Chapter 11 bankruptcy, get rid of the ridiculous union contracts and start over again with government backing (not loans) with reasonable labor costs and competitive products. That will do more for the American economy than any TARP. And perhaps like Japan, put the burden of paying for health care on society as a whole, and not on the manufacturers, eh? Would you go for that, too? Not at all, but let's face it - the health care provisions of the retirement package are onerous to the health of the corporation. I'll give you an example. My back operation cost $14,356 in total which was cheap considering that the main surgeon and assistant were freebies. That includes room, operating room, drugs, anesthesia, yada, yada, yada. My copay for that was $2,300. A UAW retiree, the guy who put four screws in the afore mentioned dashboard for his career, for that same operation, which would have included surgeon and assistant fees totaling about $21,000, would have been $4. A pre-packaged Chapter1 bankruptcy would allow for restructuring the health care provisions to something a little more reasonable. "Restructurings" usually are much harder on the working stiffs than the management pukes. And why should a retiree on a fixed income have to fork over $2300 for necessary surgery? I agree that the burden of paying for necessary health care should be lifted from US corporations, and handled the way it is in other modern countries. I'm also a bit wearing of hearing about Joe the Auto Assembly Line Worker, whose career consisted of putting four screws in a dashboard. If that is all Joe does, and it is unlikely, then that is the job management wants done. It isn't his fault. I haven't been in an auto plant in many years, but when I was last in one, I didn't see any jobs like that, and all the jobs I saw were certainly more valuable than being, oh, a stock broker or plumbing supply dealer or software pussy. Or a writer pansy pussy |
Gas prices .. some good news
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 07:48:55 -0500, Boater wrote:
"Restructurings" usually are much harder on the working stiffs than the management pukes. Yup, sure is a lot of gnashing of teeth over working stiffs. Funny, I don't recall near as much about the billions in bonuses given to managers that actually ran their companies into the ground. Damn unions are ruining this country. So Harry, when did Lehman Brothers go union? |
Gas prices .. some good news
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:51:05 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote: "Wayne.B" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 22:40:09 -0500, tin cup wrote: The average wage was around 58,000.00 a year. That's misleading, benefits add at least another 20,000. That is pretty good pay for unskiled labor, about 2 or 3 times what most factory workers get. I saw a news clip recently of a GM "worker" standing beside a console on the assembly line, supervising a bunch of robotic arms assembling a car. His primary job was to hit the red "Emergency Off" button, if something went screwy or was called to do so. His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along with his pension. I don't deny anybody the right to hold a good job with decent pay and benefits, but it really should be in concert with the person's initiative to prepare him/her self for that career. I am sorry, but standing around watching an automated assembly line put cars together for that kind of pay and benefits just doesn't do it for me, especially when I see others who have worked hard to educate and qualify themselves for a trade making far less. Oh, please. "Educated geniuses" like Paulson of Goldman-Sachs, who pulled down +50 million his last year as CEO there, and sold his stock for $500 million to work for the guv, have managed to totally **** up this country. I just love it when auto workers are portrayed like you just did, and the cars and trucks just get produced by magic. While worthless ****s like those running this country, and who supposedly "create" magic wealth but who actually create debt are heros on the covers of news magazines. I want to puke whenever I see that idiot Jack Welch. Listening to anti-American morons like him is a primary reason this country is going down the tubes. Not that I disagree that Detroit management has screwed the pooch in giving the UAW stuff like sub-pay. That's their problem, and I don't care if they go bankrupt. Simple inattention to the ledger book is the primary problem of most businesses, and Detroit's sins are even more venal. BTW, U.S. Toyota and Honda plants offer similar non-union wages, but smarter management. And they have little legacy costs. If Detroit goes bust, the Honda/Toyota workers will likely vote in the UAW to represent them. National health care will eliminate most of that legacy cost. A big chunk of Toyota/Honda sales here are still being imported from Japanese plants, where they don't suffer health care costs. Don't know how much that figures in profitability, but the Japs also engineer in more quality too. Sorry to be disagreeable, but having spent years as both a production worker and in an "educated" field making much more money but producing nothing tangible, I have strong views of their relative values. There's a reason this country is going downhill, and it sure as hell isn't being caused by workers who actually produce goods. Too many chiefs and not enough working Indians is the problem. But that concept is too complex for the "educated" morons who are "creating" all that magic money. Well, here we are, and it's just going to get worse. Trust me. We need Pat Buchanan running the show. He knows what's up. If Obama is a real "free-trader globalist" we'll continue the decline. Bottom line is you can't consume more than you produce. The peasant Chinamen doing the work for us will own us if we continue down this path. --Vic Disclaimer: My opinions are worth exactly what you paid for them. |
Gas prices .. some good news
"Boater" wrote in message ... Eisboch wrote: "Canuck57" wrote in message ... I am going to keep my F150 thank you. Nice ride and pulls a boat and has 4x4 for the winter. Try that with a pint sized electric car up a long hill. Harry had a F-150 not too long ago and often reported in this NG what a great truck it was. That's before he sharpened his political correctness. Now a US made truck is crap because he owns a Japanese model. Eisboch I haven't owned an F150 for nearly 10 years. It was a good truck. The Toyota truck that replaced it was better. I doubt I ever stated the US-made truck was "crap." I have heard those sorts of allegations, however, from SW Tom and I believe from you. I think I only called one US truck I have owned as "crap" or a similar word and it really wasn't the truck .... it was the engine. The '05 F-350 with the Ford/Navstar 6.0 L diesel was failure prone. I was left stranded 3 times with it within the first 11k miles. "That" was crap. Boy, time flies when you're having fun, huh? Seems like only yesterday you were full of compliments for Ford regarding your F-150. Eisboch Eisboch |
Gas prices .. some good news
"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in message ... On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:51:05 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along with his pension. And, this is really a ****er, now GM wants the US Taxpayer to dig them out of the health care hole by paying for the ridiculous health care packages for their retireees. So now we have GM begging some working stiff who works, pays taxes and either doesn't have a health package or only Major Medical at an exhorbitant rate to sponsor some moron who put four screws in a dashboard for most of his life and was paid $34/hr plus benefits for doing so and now has a $4 co-pay for everything health care related. Here's what I think GM should do - pre-pack a Chapter 11 bankruptcy, get rid of the ridiculous union contracts and start over again with government backing (not loans) with reasonable labor costs and competitive products. That will do more for the American economy than any TARP. Not to mention control the salary & bonuses the top layer of management. Why should the CEOs of GM or Ford make many times more than the president of the US when they can't even keep their companies profitable. |
Gas prices .. some good news
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Gas prices .. some good news
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Gas prices .. some good news
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Gas prices .. some good news
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Gas prices .. some good news
"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in message ... On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:51:05 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along with his pension. And, this is really a ****er, now GM wants the US Taxpayer to dig them out of the health care hole by paying for the ridiculous health care packages for their retireees. So now we have GM begging some working stiff who works, pays taxes and either doesn't have a health package or only Major Medical at an exhorbitant rate to sponsor some moron who put four screws in a dashboard for most of his life and was paid $34/hr plus benefits for doing so and now has a $4 co-pay for everything health care related. Here's what I think GM should do - pre-pack a Chapter 11 bankruptcy, get rid of the ridiculous union contracts and start over again with government backing (not loans) with reasonable labor costs and competitive products. That will do more for the American economy than any TARP. Actually, I screwed the facts up. The guy wasn't making $85K per year. He was making $85 per hour, including base pay and cost of benefits. Hmmm... 85 times 40hrs/week times 56 weeks ..... not bad! As mentioned in a previous post, I agree with the Duck and you. The solution to the auto industry's problems is Chapter 11 and reorganization, not a taxpayer financed bailout. Eisboch |
Gas prices .. some good news
"Jim" wrote in message ... Come on asshole. There is nothing wrong with EARNING high pay and being showered with benefits. There is no incentive for union employees to EARN their keep. They get paid the same *weather* they do excellent work, mediocre work, or no work. Have you found that little surprise on the Union web site yet? I wish I could be there when you discover it. Weather?? What has the *weather* got to do with it? Management are the villians here. If you don't think so...go check out their compensation package for leading their company down the drain. |
Gas prices .. some good news
Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message ... Eisboch wrote: "Canuck57" wrote in message ... I am going to keep my F150 thank you. Nice ride and pulls a boat and has 4x4 for the winter. Try that with a pint sized electric car up a long hill. Harry had a F-150 not too long ago and often reported in this NG what a great truck it was. That's before he sharpened his political correctness. Now a US made truck is crap because he owns a Japanese model. Eisboch I haven't owned an F150 for nearly 10 years. It was a good truck. The Toyota truck that replaced it was better. I doubt I ever stated the US-made truck was "crap." I have heard those sorts of allegations, however, from SW Tom and I believe from you. I think I only called one US truck I have owned as "crap" or a similar word and it really wasn't the truck .... it was the engine. The '05 F-350 with the Ford/Navstar 6.0 L diesel was failure prone. I was left stranded 3 times with it within the first 11k miles. "That" was crap. Boy, time flies when you're having fun, huh? Seems like only yesterday you were full of compliments for Ford regarding your F-150. Eisboch Eisboch As I said, it was a good truck. But the Toyota was a better truck. That's why I traded in the Ford for the Tundra. |
Gas prices .. some good news
"Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 16:26:46 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: That may change (and it should), but the point is .... Detroit builds what people buy. Right up until they don't. Detroit made two big mistakes: 1. They thought they could keep pushing profitable big iron forever. 2. They could never figure out how to build a small, high quality, economical car at a reasonable price. Given the high cost of their labor content it may have been impossible but they never really tried. Is there any reason why GM could not have produced something like a Toyota Corolla or a small pickup truck even if they had to build it offshore? People have certainly bought plenty of them from Toyota so we can't claim the demand wasn't there. Finally...some common sense! |
Gas prices .. some good news
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:12:21 -0500, Boater wrote:
You can be sure no one in the Bush Administration gives a damn about worker bees. Oh...and I just read somewhere that several of the financial institutions, banks mostly, getting taxpayer bailout money have reserved some of it for future bonuses for executives. Yeah, like 10% of *our* money. http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...laries-banking We're not there yet, and we may not get there in my lifetime, but what we need in this country is a total restructuring of society that adds fairness. I'm not talking communism, but I wouldn't mind a bit more European socialism. More and more this country seems to exist only to help the wealthy attain more wealth. If that is the direction it is heading, then it deserves to fail. If it does fail, and I hope it doesn't, it's time to redefine capitalism. There is no way a few greedy, incompetent *******s should be able to take down the world's economy. |
Gas prices .. some good news
Don White wrote:
"Jim" wrote in message ... Come on asshole. There is nothing wrong with EARNING high pay and being showered with benefits. There is no incentive for union employees to EARN their keep. They get paid the same *weather* they do excellent work, mediocre work, or no work. Have you found that little surprise on the Union web site yet? I wish I could be there when you discover it. Weather?? What has the *weather* got to do with it? Management are the villians here. If you don't think so...go check out their compensation package for leading their company down the drain. Hey...it's FloridaJim. He couldn't get a job as a hodcarrier's apprentice. |
Gas prices .. some good news
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:12:13 -0500, Jim wrote:
Busting the unions should be a requisite part of any bailout plan. Otherwise they will be back again in a few years looking for another handout. It's time we earn from our mistakes and stop repeating them. What union is looking for a handout? I've heard lots of CEOs whining for help. |
Gas prices .. some good news
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 07:48:55 -0500, Boater
wrote: Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 06:41:51 -0500, Boater wrote: Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:51:05 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along with his pension. And, this is really a ****er, now GM wants the US Taxpayer to dig them out of the health care hole by paying for the ridiculous health care packages for their retireees. So now we have GM begging some working stiff who works, pays taxes and either doesn't have a health package or only Major Medical at an exhorbitant rate to sponsor some moron who put four screws in a dashboard for most of his life and was paid $34/hr plus benefits for doing so and now has a $4 co-pay for everything health care related. Here's what I think GM should do - pre-pack a Chapter 11 bankruptcy, get rid of the ridiculous union contracts and start over again with government backing (not loans) with reasonable labor costs and competitive products. That will do more for the American economy than any TARP. And perhaps like Japan, put the burden of paying for health care on society as a whole, and not on the manufacturers, eh? Would you go for that, too? Not at all, but let's face it - the health care provisions of the retirement package are onerous to the health of the corporation. I'll give you an example. My back operation cost $14,356 in total which was cheap considering that the main surgeon and assistant were freebies. That includes room, operating room, drugs, anesthesia, yada, yada, yada. My copay for that was $2,300. A UAW retiree, the guy who put four screws in the afore mentioned dashboard for his career, for that same operation, which would have included surgeon and assistant fees totaling about $21,000, would have been $4. A pre-packaged Chapter1 bankruptcy would allow for restructuring the health care provisions to something a little more reasonable. "Restructurings" usually are much harder on the working stiffs than the management pukes. And why should a retiree on a fixed income have to fork over $2300 for necessary surgery? I did - and the answer is because it was necessary. A lot of average joes and "working stiffs" have to do it. Why does the UAW have an advantage over everybody else. I agree that the burden of paying for necessary health care should be lifted from US corporations, and handled the way it is in other modern countries. Oh bull****. Tell me about the Canadian system again - you know the one where the people who can afford to pay cross the border for their treatments rather than stay in Canada. My daughter sees Canadian patients all the time - regular basis - because they have long waits or in some cases, treatments aren't available in Canada because of costs and/or waiting in lies to have procedures done. I'm also a bit wearing of hearing about Joe the Auto Assembly Line Worker, whose career consisted of putting four screws in a dashboard. If that is all Joe does, and it is unlikely, then that is the job management wants done. It isn't his fault. I haven't been in an auto plant in many years, but when I was last in one, I didn't see any jobs like that, Harry - stop with the party line crap. For crying out loud, there was a Discovery channel program the other day about modern assembly lines and there was one guy who did four screws into the dash of a Ford pickup and did it over and over and over and over again. Said it was pretty boring, but it paid well - $34/hr plus bennies. Get your head out of the sand for once. |
Gas prices .. some good news
"Boater" wrote in message ... Eisboch wrote: "Canuck57" wrote in message ... I am going to keep my F150 thank you. Nice ride and pulls a boat and has 4x4 for the winter. Try that with a pint sized electric car up a long hill. Harry had a F-150 not too long ago and often reported in this NG what a great truck it was. That's before he sharpened his political correctness. Now a US made truck is crap because he owns a Japanese model. Eisboch I haven't owned an F150 for nearly 10 years. It was a good truck. The Toyota truck that replaced it was better. I doubt I ever stated the US-made truck was "crap." I have heard those sorts of allegations, however, from SW Tom and I believe from you. Speaking of F-150s...saw an ad in the local paper saying 2008 base trucks could be had for a few pennies under $14K CDN. Man...I brought it up but the wife squashed that right away. She's rather pay twice as much for a Forester or RAV4. |
Gas prices .. some good news
Boater wrote:
Jim wrote: wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 11:38:58 +0000, Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:12:16 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: "D.Duck" wrote in message ... My hope is that the GM/Ford/Chrysler problems are resolved (if resolvable) in bankruptcy, not throwing more tax payer dollars at them. Duck, I couldn't agree with you more. Chapter 11 isn't permanent. It allows for "reorganization" which is exactly what the auto industry needs to do right now. Revise business plans, products and re-negotiate the union contracts under the watchful eye of a bankruptcy judge. Handing them a pile of taxpayer money, calling it a government "investment" just to keep them in business under their current organizational structures won't do a damn thing. I agree. Tough call. I don't like these bailouts, but can we afford not to? In this country, 1 in 10 jobs are connected to the auto industry. If the auto companies fail, we're talking depression, not recession. All of this, could get real scary, real quick. Busting the unions should be a requisite part of any bailout plan. Otherwise they will be back again in a few years looking for another handout. It's time we earn from our mistakes and stop repeating them. This from a guy whose career highlight was cleaning the heads aboard a navy ship? We used to send numb-nuts like you all over the ship looking for replacements for burned out headlights. |
Gas prices .. some good news
Eisboch wrote:
"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in message ... On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:51:05 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along with his pension. And, this is really a ****er, now GM wants the US Taxpayer to dig them out of the health care hole by paying for the ridiculous health care packages for their retireees. So now we have GM begging some working stiff who works, pays taxes and either doesn't have a health package or only Major Medical at an exhorbitant rate to sponsor some moron who put four screws in a dashboard for most of his life and was paid $34/hr plus benefits for doing so and now has a $4 co-pay for everything health care related. Here's what I think GM should do - pre-pack a Chapter 11 bankruptcy, get rid of the ridiculous union contracts and start over again with government backing (not loans) with reasonable labor costs and competitive products. That will do more for the American economy than any TARP. Actually, I screwed the facts up. The guy wasn't making $85K per year. He was making $85 per hour, including base pay and cost of benefits. Hmmm... 85 times 40hrs/week times 56 weeks ..... not bad! As mentioned in a previous post, I agree with the Duck and you. The solution to the auto industry's problems is Chapter 11 and reorganization, not a taxpayer financed bailout. Eisboch Fifty six weeks, eh? I presume you had a hired bookkeeper. |
Gas prices .. some good news
"Boater" wrote in message ... Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: I'll give you an example. My back operation cost $14,356 in total which was cheap considering that the main surgeon and assistant were freebies. That includes room, operating room, drugs, anesthesia, yada, yada, yada. My copay for that was $2,300. A UAW retiree, the guy who put four screws in the afore mentioned dashboard for his career, for that same operation, which would have included surgeon and assistant fees totaling about $21,000, would have been $4. A pre-packaged Chapter1 bankruptcy would allow for restructuring the health care provisions to something a little more reasonable. "Restructurings" usually are much harder on the working stiffs than the management pukes. And why should a retiree on a fixed income have to fork over $2300 for necessary surgery? It's called a deductable Harry, something anyone should be prepared for and also reduces health care premiums somewhat. I'll bet the overall savings in premium payments by having a reasonable deductable more than covers the $2,300 over the longer term. In major, long term illnesses, the deductable is usually capped on a yearly basis, last time I checked. I agree that the burden of paying for necessary health care should be lifted from US corporations, and handled the way it is in other modern countries. I'm also a bit wearing of hearing about Joe the Auto Assembly Line Worker, whose career consisted of putting four screws in a dashboard. If that is all Joe does, and it is unlikely, then that is the job management wants done. It isn't his fault. I haven't been in an auto plant in many years, but when I was last in one, I didn't see any jobs like that, and all the jobs I saw were certainly more valuable than being, oh, a stock broker or plumbing supply dealer or software pussy. Like leaning on a post, watching robotic arms assemble a car and the equivalent of 85 bucks an hour? He's there because his union has a contract saying he is entitled to be there. Eisboch |
Gas prices .. some good news
Don White wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message ... Eisboch wrote: "Canuck57" wrote in message ... I am going to keep my F150 thank you. Nice ride and pulls a boat and has 4x4 for the winter. Try that with a pint sized electric car up a long hill. Harry had a F-150 not too long ago and often reported in this NG what a great truck it was. That's before he sharpened his political correctness. Now a US made truck is crap because he owns a Japanese model. Eisboch I haven't owned an F150 for nearly 10 years. It was a good truck. The Toyota truck that replaced it was better. I doubt I ever stated the US-made truck was "crap." I have heard those sorts of allegations, however, from SW Tom and I believe from you. Speaking of F-150s...saw an ad in the local paper saying 2008 base trucks could be had for a few pennies under $14K CDN. Man...I brought it up but the wife squashed that right away. She's rather pay twice as much for a Forester or RAV4. My wife is "up" for new car, and I'm trying to convince her a Forester is what she wants. It isn't working. :} |
Gas prices .. some good news
Jim wrote:
Boater wrote: Jim wrote: wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 11:38:58 +0000, Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:12:16 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: "D.Duck" wrote in message ... My hope is that the GM/Ford/Chrysler problems are resolved (if resolvable) in bankruptcy, not throwing more tax payer dollars at them. Duck, I couldn't agree with you more. Chapter 11 isn't permanent. It allows for "reorganization" which is exactly what the auto industry needs to do right now. Revise business plans, products and re-negotiate the union contracts under the watchful eye of a bankruptcy judge. Handing them a pile of taxpayer money, calling it a government "investment" just to keep them in business under their current organizational structures won't do a damn thing. I agree. Tough call. I don't like these bailouts, but can we afford not to? In this country, 1 in 10 jobs are connected to the auto industry. If the auto companies fail, we're talking depression, not recession. All of this, could get real scary, real quick. Busting the unions should be a requisite part of any bailout plan. Otherwise they will be back again in a few years looking for another handout. It's time we earn from our mistakes and stop repeating them. This from a guy whose career highlight was cleaning the heads aboard a navy ship? We used to send numb-nuts like you all over the ship looking for replacements for burned out headlights. No, you didn't. I wasn't dumb enough to get drafted, or, in lieu of that, join up, so I could kill Asians who were not threatening my country. |
Gas prices .. some good news
Boater wrote: I think the bailouts should be stopped dead until the Bush Administration reveals who has gotten every dollar handed out so far. I agree with you. I am not sure where the problem lies. We were supposed to have an oversight report issued to the public by now, as required by the Congress written and passed legislation on this bailout package. Problem is, they haven't appointed anyone to the oversight position yet. I don't blame Bush singularly. The whole stinking pile of incompetents in Wash DC should be tarred and feathered. Eisboch |
Gas prices .. some good news
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 13:14:49 +0000, Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
I agree with supporting the banking system - that's a plus and a must. What I don't agree with is supporting a manufacturing corporation who, through it's own stupidity, got itself into a mess and now wants the average taxpayer to bail it out. Another positive thing about bankruptcy, the managers that took the company down, usually don't survive. What bothers me the most about these bailouts is, the managers that failed are still managing. AIG, for instance, that $440,000 party, these guys just don't get it. I ain't buying it. Personally, I think Sheila Bair has the right idea - buy up all the fluky mortgages, take a small haircut, renegotiate the terms to keep people in their homes and gradually sell the new assets back into the system. It's cost neutral to the taxpayer and actually has the potential to make the taxpayer money. That part makes sense, but is it enough? This mess seems to be spreading into other parts of the economy. I don't mind bumpy roads, it's the downhills that suck. |
Gas prices .. some good news
Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message ... Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: I'll give you an example. My back operation cost $14,356 in total which was cheap considering that the main surgeon and assistant were freebies. That includes room, operating room, drugs, anesthesia, yada, yada, yada. My copay for that was $2,300. A UAW retiree, the guy who put four screws in the afore mentioned dashboard for his career, for that same operation, which would have included surgeon and assistant fees totaling about $21,000, would have been $4. A pre-packaged Chapter1 bankruptcy would allow for restructuring the health care provisions to something a little more reasonable. "Restructurings" usually are much harder on the working stiffs than the management pukes. And why should a retiree on a fixed income have to fork over $2300 for necessary surgery? It's called a deductable Harry, something anyone should be prepared for and also reduces health care premiums somewhat. I'll bet the overall savings in premium payments by having a reasonable deductable more than covers the $2,300 over the longer term. In major, long term illnesses, the deductable is usually capped on a yearly basis, last time I checked. One more time: most retirees on fixed incomes cannot afford to lay out $2300 for necessary surgery. You're a rich retiree. Your perspective is not relevant to retirees who are trying to decide whether to buy food or medicine because they cannot afford both. |
Gas prices .. some good news
Boater wrote:
Don White wrote: "Jim" wrote in message ... Come on asshole. There is nothing wrong with EARNING high pay and being showered with benefits. There is no incentive for union employees to EARN their keep. They get paid the same *weather* they do excellent work, mediocre work, or no work. Have you found that little surprise on the Union web site yet? I wish I could be there when you discover it. Weather?? What has the *weather* got to do with it? Management are the villians here. If you don't think so...go check out their compensation package for leading their company down the drain. Hey...it's FloridaJim. He couldn't get a job as a hodcarrier's apprentice. You two asses can't get out of each others butts can you. While you are spell checking, look up villions and hodcarrier's. It's your job to educate your dombfoch Canadian buddy; not high five him every time he catches a spelling mistake. WAFA |
Gas prices .. some good news
wrote in message t... Tough call. I don't like these bailouts, but can we afford not to? In this country, 1 in 10 jobs are connected to the auto industry. If the auto companies fail, we're talking depression, not recession. All of this, could get real scary, real quick. This may sound harsh, but I am just about convinced that we are beyond any form of healthy avenues for recovery. The reasons are varied and there's plenty of blame to pass around, including the consumer. At this point though, it just doesn't matter. Assigning blame doesn't fix the problems. I think we may just have to bite the bullet, allow Banks, Investment firms, GM, GMAC, Ford, Ford Motor Credit and Chrysler (whoever they are now-a-days) to file Chapter 11 bankrupcy, reorganize and start again. That will unfortunatly cause bankrupcies in many supporting industrys but they are currently structured to support what exists now, not as it should be. Everyone is jumping on the bailout bandwagon. American Express just filed to become a bank, thereby qualifying for some of the bailout money to cover bad accounts. That's too much. Enough. Like a hurricane every 100 years or so, it is going to require cleaning out the deadwood before the forests can grow again. Eisboch |
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