|
Gas prices .. some good news
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:24:18 -0500, Jim wrote:
We used to send numb-nuts like you all over the ship looking for replacements for burned out headlights. I heard stories of Marines on carrier duty being sent to the parts bin to get a bucket of prop wash and a couple of yards of flight line. I don't think I would have fallen for it, but I gotta admit, that would have been pretty funny. |
Gas prices .. some good news
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:31:21 -0500, Boater
wrote: No, you didn't. I wasn't dumb enough to get drafted Damn - you are such an ass sometimes. |
Gas prices .. some good news
Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:42:23 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: wrote in message t... Tough call. I don't like these bailouts, but can we afford not to? In this country, 1 in 10 jobs are connected to the auto industry. If the auto companies fail, we're talking depression, not recession. All of this, could get real scary, real quick. This may sound harsh, but I am just about convinced that we are beyond any form of healthy avenues for recovery. The reasons are varied and there's plenty of blame to pass around, including the consumer. At this point though, it just doesn't matter. Assigning blame doesn't fix the problems. I think we may just have to bite the bullet, allow Banks, Investment firms, GM, GMAC, Ford, Ford Motor Credit and Chrysler (whoever they are now-a-days) to file Chapter 11 bankrupcy, reorganize and start again. That will unfortunatly cause bankrupcies in many supporting industrys but they are currently structured to support what exists now, not as it should be. Everyone is jumping on the bailout bandwagon. American Express just filed to become a bank, thereby qualifying for some of the bailout money to cover bad accounts. That's too much. Enough. Like a hurricane every 100 years or so, it is going to require cleaning out the deadwood before the forests can grow again. Damn straight. And what is your plan for the millions of workers who will lose their jobs? Oh...I know...let them all die. I would start by firing every member of an automaker's management team, eliminating whatever "equity" the shareholders still have, renegotiating all existing labor and supplier contracts, and hiring innovative management that can begin producing world-class energy efficient cars within two years, even if they have to buy the technology until they can develop their own. |
Gas prices .. some good news
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:09:32 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote: Boy, time flies when you're having fun, huh? Seems like only yesterday you were full of compliments for Ford regarding your F-150. Mine is very nice - except for not being able to tow. |
Gas prices .. some good news
Eisboch wrote:
"Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 22:40:09 -0500, tin cup wrote: The average wage was around 58,000.00 a year. That's misleading, benefits add at least another 20,000. That is pretty good pay for unskiled labor, about 2 or 3 times what most factory workers get. I saw a news clip recently of a GM "worker" standing beside a console on the assembly line, supervising a bunch of robotic arms assembling a car. His primary job was to hit the red "Emergency Off" button, if something went screwy or was called to do so. His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along with his pension. I don't deny anybody the right to hold a good job with decent pay and benefits, but it really should be in concert with the person's initiative to prepare him/her self for that career. I am sorry, but standing around watching an automated assembly line put cars together for that kind of pay and benefits just doesn't do it for me, especially when I see others who have worked hard to educate and qualify themselves for a trade making far less. Eisboch That may be what had to be done at the time. Someone had to do it and also the other things associated with the robots. A Machinist does not stand at the lathe all day long. He takes the jobs when they get to him. He is paid for his expertise and to do the job. A "college kid" would not do it or could not do it. Some College Graduates do work for a living. They are paid to do the job not for their piece of paper as is Wall Street. |
Gas prices .. some good news
Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:31:21 -0500, Boater wrote: No, you didn't. I wasn't dumb enough to get drafted Damn - you are such an ass sometimes. Nothing personal, Tom. I'm just unimpressed by our entire involvement in Vietnam, other than the horror of 55,000 American lives wasted, tens of thousands of U.S. troops seriously injured, and millions of Asians killed and maimed. Those losses I find tragic and impressive. The war was a...what's that term you old soldiers like...cluster****, the dumbest war we got involved in in the last 100 years, until our recent one against Iraq. Blame for it goes all the way back to the SEATO treaty. I didn't have to resist the draft, but I have friends who did. *They* were right. |
Gas prices .. some good news
Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:51:05 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along with his pension. And, this is really a ****er, now GM wants the US Taxpayer to dig them out of the health care hole by paying for the ridiculous health care packages for their retireees. So now we have GM begging some working stiff who works, pays taxes and either doesn't have a health package or only Major Medical at an exhorbitant rate to sponsor some moron who put four screws in a dashboard for most of his life and was paid $34/hr plus benefits for doing so and now has a $4 co-pay for everything health care related. Here's what I think GM should do - pre-pack a Chapter 11 bankruptcy, get rid of the ridiculous union contracts and start over again with government backing (not loans) with reasonable labor costs and competitive products. That will do more for the American economy than any TARP. I think everyone should be assured quality health care. A lot will label that socialist or whatever, since it crosses some line some Corporate tax dodger, told him it does. What you are saying life isn't fair. That those who earn more are less than moral. Those that work for GM etc applied for the job. Those that work at McDonalds applied for that job. Those that choose to work for themselves took that job and assumed the responsibility and task to provide for all those things and struggle for higher rewards. Now they bitch because they don't have the benefits free from somebody. Gm Workers and any other aren't provided anything free. It is part of their compensation or pay. If you haven't noticed 85,000.00 a year is about 9,000.00 in 1970 dollars. my conjecture. |
Gas prices .. some good news
Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 06:41:51 -0500, Boater wrote: Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:51:05 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along with his pension. And, this is really a ****er, now GM wants the US Taxpayer to dig them out of the health care hole by paying for the ridiculous health care packages for their retireees. So now we have GM begging some working stiff who works, pays taxes and either doesn't have a health package or only Major Medical at an exhorbitant rate to sponsor some moron who put four screws in a dashboard for most of his life and was paid $34/hr plus benefits for doing so and now has a $4 co-pay for everything health care related. Here's what I think GM should do - pre-pack a Chapter 11 bankruptcy, get rid of the ridiculous union contracts and start over again with government backing (not loans) with reasonable labor costs and competitive products. That will do more for the American economy than any TARP. And perhaps like Japan, put the burden of paying for health care on society as a whole, and not on the manufacturers, eh? Would you go for that, too? Not at all, but let's face it - the health care provisions of the retirement package are onerous to the health of the corporation. I'll give you an example. My back operation cost $14,356 in total which was cheap considering that the main surgeon and assistant were freebies. That includes room, operating room, drugs, anesthesia, yada, yada, yada. My copay for that was $2,300. A UAW retiree, the guy who put four screws in the afore mentioned dashboard for his career, for that same operation, which would have included surgeon and assistant fees totaling about $21,000, would have been $4. A pre-packaged Chapter1 bankruptcy would allow for restructuring the health care provisions to something a little more reasonable. Why do you get to make the rules as to what is reasonable for everyone else? |
Gas prices .. some good news
Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 07:48:55 -0500, Boater wrote: Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 06:41:51 -0500, Boater wrote: Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:51:05 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along with his pension. And, this is really a ****er, now GM wants the US Taxpayer to dig them out of the health care hole by paying for the ridiculous health care packages for their retireees. So now we have GM begging some working stiff who works, pays taxes and either doesn't have a health package or only Major Medical at an exhorbitant rate to sponsor some moron who put four screws in a dashboard for most of his life and was paid $34/hr plus benefits for doing so and now has a $4 co-pay for everything health care related. Here's what I think GM should do - pre-pack a Chapter 11 bankruptcy, get rid of the ridiculous union contracts and start over again with government backing (not loans) with reasonable labor costs and competitive products. That will do more for the American economy than any TARP. And perhaps like Japan, put the burden of paying for health care on society as a whole, and not on the manufacturers, eh? Would you go for that, too? Not at all, but let's face it - the health care provisions of the retirement package are onerous to the health of the corporation. I'll give you an example. My back operation cost $14,356 in total which was cheap considering that the main surgeon and assistant were freebies. That includes room, operating room, drugs, anesthesia, yada, yada, yada. My copay for that was $2,300. A UAW retiree, the guy who put four screws in the afore mentioned dashboard for his career, for that same operation, which would have included surgeon and assistant fees totaling about $21,000, would have been $4. A pre-packaged Chapter1 bankruptcy would allow for restructuring the health care provisions to something a little more reasonable. "Restructurings" usually are much harder on the working stiffs than the management pukes. And why should a retiree on a fixed income have to fork over $2300 for necessary surgery? I did - and the answer is because it was necessary. A lot of average joes and "working stiffs" have to do it. Why does the UAW have an advantage over everybody else. I agree that the burden of paying for necessary health care should be lifted from US corporations, and handled the way it is in other modern countries. Oh bull****. Tell me about the Canadian system again - you know the one where the people who can afford to pay cross the border for their treatments rather than stay in Canada. My daughter sees Canadian patients all the time - regular basis - because they have long waits or in some cases, treatments aren't available in Canada because of costs and/or waiting in lies to have procedures done. I'm also a bit wearing of hearing about Joe the Auto Assembly Line Worker, whose career consisted of putting four screws in a dashboard. If that is all Joe does, and it is unlikely, then that is the job management wants done. It isn't his fault. I haven't been in an auto plant in many years, but when I was last in one, I didn't see any jobs like that, Harry - stop with the party line crap. For crying out loud, there was a Discovery channel program the other day about modern assembly lines and there was one guy who did four screws into the dash of a Ford pickup and did it over and over and over and over again. Said it was pretty boring, but it paid well - $34/hr plus bennies. Get your head out of the sand for once. So you resent the fact that he makes a good living the American Dream but isn't as righeous as you because you don't make that much or you like Standard Oil or wage slavewry since as a business owner you are the only one that should enjoy the Dream. |
Gas prices .. some good news
|
Gas prices .. some good news
|
Gas prices .. some good news
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 17:03:17 GMT, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:24:18 -0500, Jim wrote: We used to send numb-nuts like you all over the ship looking for replacements for burned out headlights. I heard stories of Marines on carrier duty being sent to the parts bin to get a bucket of prop wash and a couple of yards of flight line. I don't think I would have fallen for it, but I gotta admit, that would have been pretty funny. I used to send new guys to the foc'sle to fetch a lawnmower to mow the bilges, or to get a bottle of vacuum to recharge the DA tank. It was make-it-up on the spot. Never too funny though. More elaborate stuff worked better. Intellectual grab-assing so to speak. Since I was enlisted, I felt no need to be a gentleman. --Vic |
Gas prices .. some good news
"Boater" wrote in message ... Jim wrote: Eisboch wrote: "Jim" wrote in message ... Boater wrote: This from a guy whose career highlight was cleaning the heads aboard a navy ship? We used to send numb-nuts like you all over the ship looking for replacements for burned out headlights. Or a replacement fallopian tube for one of the transmitters. Eisboch :-) Or a bucket of ohms. Ah, the good old days. Simple gags for simple minds. The simple minds were the ones looking. |
Gas prices .. some good news
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 12:13:06 -0500, Boater
wrote: Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:31:21 -0500, Boater wrote: No, you didn't. I wasn't dumb enough to get drafted Damn - you are such an ass sometimes. Nothing personal, Tom. I'm just unimpressed by our entire involvement in Vietnam, other than the horror of 55,000 American lives wasted, tens of thousands of U.S. troops seriously injured, and millions of Asians killed and maimed. Those losses I find tragic and impressive. The war was a...what's that term you old soldiers like...cluster****, the dumbest war we got involved in in the last 100 years, until our recent one against Iraq. Blame for it goes all the way back to the SEATO treaty. I didn't have to resist the draft, but I have friends who did. *They* were right. Many disagree with that take. Me, for one. Different world then, and the commies were a threat. Yep, I believe in the dominos. The guys in Viet Nam stopped them from falling. Nothing you say will change that. Most the history denying what I just said was written by those who avoided serving - it's a way to justify their cowardice. Of course I may be wrong. We'll never know. But those who died deserve that interpretation. --Vic |
Gas prices .. some good news
"Boater" wrote in message ... Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:42:23 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: wrote in message t... Tough call. I don't like these bailouts, but can we afford not to? In this country, 1 in 10 jobs are connected to the auto industry. If the auto companies fail, we're talking depression, not recession. All of this, could get real scary, real quick. This may sound harsh, but I am just about convinced that we are beyond any form of healthy avenues for recovery. The reasons are varied and there's plenty of blame to pass around, including the consumer. At this point though, it just doesn't matter. Assigning blame doesn't fix the problems. I think we may just have to bite the bullet, allow Banks, Investment firms, GM, GMAC, Ford, Ford Motor Credit and Chrysler (whoever they are now-a-days) to file Chapter 11 bankrupcy, reorganize and start again. That will unfortunatly cause bankrupcies in many supporting industrys but they are currently structured to support what exists now, not as it should be. Everyone is jumping on the bailout bandwagon. American Express just filed to become a bank, thereby qualifying for some of the bailout money to cover bad accounts. That's too much. Enough. Like a hurricane every 100 years or so, it is going to require cleaning out the deadwood before the forests can grow again. Damn straight. And what is your plan for the millions of workers who will lose their jobs? Oh...I know...let them all die. I would start by firing every member of an automaker's management team, eliminating whatever "equity" the shareholders still have, renegotiating all existing labor and supplier contracts, and hiring innovative management that can begin producing world-class energy efficient cars within two years, even if they have to buy the technology until they can develop their own. http://www.cnsnews.com/public/conten...x?RsrcID=39292 A union bailout not an automaker bailout. Especially this point: "NLPC says the UAW wants additional taxpayer money to enrich health and retirement plans it controls. Indeed, UAW President Ron Gettelfinger has urged Congress to act immediately to provide a separate, additional $25 billion in loans so auto companies can meet their health care obligations to more than 780,000 retirees and dependents." What about me when I got laid off because the company management made bad decisions? I had to pay for my own health care costs. Can I now apply and get reimbursed for those costs, plus interest? |
Gas prices .. some good news
Boater wrote:
Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:42:23 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: wrote in message t... Tough call. I don't like these bailouts, but can we afford not to? In this country, 1 in 10 jobs are connected to the auto industry. If the auto companies fail, we're talking depression, not recession. All of this, could get real scary, real quick. This may sound harsh, but I am just about convinced that we are beyond any form of healthy avenues for recovery. The reasons are varied and there's plenty of blame to pass around, including the consumer. At this point though, it just doesn't matter. Assigning blame doesn't fix the problems. I think we may just have to bite the bullet, allow Banks, Investment firms, GM, GMAC, Ford, Ford Motor Credit and Chrysler (whoever they are now-a-days) to file Chapter 11 bankrupcy, reorganize and start again. That will unfortunatly cause bankrupcies in many supporting industrys but they are currently structured to support what exists now, not as it should be. Everyone is jumping on the bailout bandwagon. American Express just filed to become a bank, thereby qualifying for some of the bailout money to cover bad accounts. That's too much. Enough. Like a hurricane every 100 years or so, it is going to require cleaning out the deadwood before the forests can grow again. Damn straight. And what is your plan for the millions of workers who will lose their jobs? Oh...I know...let them all die. I would start by firing every member of an automaker's management team, eliminating whatever "equity" the shareholders still have, renegotiating all existing labor and supplier contracts, and hiring innovative management that can begin producing world-class energy efficient cars within two years, even if they have to buy the technology until they can develop their own. Screw the investors? I don't think so. Burn all labor contracts. Fire everybody. Sell the brand an equipment to an automaker who knows how to do business. Hire back employees that can demonstrate needed skills and collect the union cards as they enter the work place. Start fresh and build innovative earth friendly vehicles. As for the employees that don't get rehired, Americans, except for Obama, Don't just let our people die. We'll find work for them even if it means pushing out the illegals. |
Gas prices .. some good news
"Eisboch" wrote in message ... Actually, I screwed the facts up. The guy wasn't making $85K per year. He was making $85 per hour, including base pay and cost of benefits. Hmmm... 85 times 40hrs/week times 56 weeks ..... not bad! snip Eisboch Say what? 56 weeks a year? No wonder your economy is in a shambles. The rest of the civilized world operates on 52 weeks a year. |
Gas prices .. some good news
wrote in message ... On Nov 13, 2:38 am, "Eisboch" wrote: I don't consider UAW members "slobs", but I agree with his overall assesment. I was a bit over the top with that. I don't really blame the workers, they're just taking advantage of the high-paying jobs available to them. The UAW is specifically the one to blame here, by forcing the automakers into paying this kind of money to unskilled workers, ultimately bringing about the death of the entire American auto industry. It's past time to break the unions and come back to reality. They've outlived their usefulness, and turned into leeches on society as a whole. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- A couple posts ago you were bragging about how well along you and your wife were in your retirement plans. I suppose the unionized force should be happy sitting on a park bench begging for crumbs to eat and a lump of coal to heat their single room dwelling. |
Gas prices .. some good news
"Jim" wrote in message ... Don White wrote: "Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 16:26:46 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: That may change (and it should), but the point is .... Detroit builds what people buy. Right up until they don't. Detroit made two big mistakes: 1. They thought they could keep pushing profitable big iron forever. 2. They could never figure out how to build a small, high quality, economical car at a reasonable price. Given the high cost of their labor content it may have been impossible but they never really tried. Is there any reason why GM could not have produced something like a Toyota Corolla or a small pickup truck even if they had to build it offshore? People have certainly bought plenty of them from Toyota so we can't claim the demand wasn't there. Finally...some common sense! And what would we do with all of the unemployed union auto workers here in the good old U S of A? Severence packages and an acre of Florida land to anyone over 55........ offer re-training to the young. |
Gas prices .. some good news
"Boater" wrote in message ... Don White wrote: "Boater" wrote in message ... Eisboch wrote: "Canuck57" wrote in message ... I am going to keep my F150 thank you. Nice ride and pulls a boat and has 4x4 for the winter. Try that with a pint sized electric car up a long hill. Harry had a F-150 not too long ago and often reported in this NG what a great truck it was. That's before he sharpened his political correctness. Now a US made truck is crap because he owns a Japanese model. Eisboch I haven't owned an F150 for nearly 10 years. It was a good truck. The Toyota truck that replaced it was better. I doubt I ever stated the US-made truck was "crap." I have heard those sorts of allegations, however, from SW Tom and I believe from you. Speaking of F-150s...saw an ad in the local paper saying 2008 base trucks could be had for a few pennies under $14K CDN. Man...I brought it up but the wife squashed that right away. She's rather pay twice as much for a Forester or RAV4. My wife is "up" for new car, and I'm trying to convince her a Forester is what she wants. It isn't working. :} Show her the Consumer Reports ratings for small SUVs and talk her into test driving one. A bit underpowered and the speedo is hard to read while wearing sunglasses...otherwise very pleasant to drive. |
Gas prices .. some good news
"Richard Casady" wrote in message ... Diesel electric is not particularly efficient. It allows starts with very heavy loads without frying a clutch, which is why they use it. It is heavy which matters with a truck. Casady It's my understanding however that a diesel is much more efficient running at an optimized, constant RPM. A diesel/electric system is ideal for this. Eisboch |
Gas prices .. some good news
Don White wrote: wrote in message
... On Nov 13, 2:38 am, "Eisboch" wrote: I don't consider UAW members "slobs", but I agree with his overall assesment. I was a bit over the top with that. I don't really blame the workers, they're just taking advantage of the high-paying jobs available to them. The UAW is specifically the one to blame here, by forcing the automakers into paying this kind of money to unskilled workers, ultimately bringing about the death of the entire American auto industry. It's past time to break the unions and come back to reality. They've outlived their usefulness, and turned into leeches on society as a whole. It's way past time to break the corporate mentality and start over. Corporations have outlived their usefulness, and turned into leeches on society. |
Gas prices .. some good news
Don White wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message ... Don White wrote: "Boater" wrote in message ... Eisboch wrote: "Canuck57" wrote in message ... I am going to keep my F150 thank you. Nice ride and pulls a boat and has 4x4 for the winter. Try that with a pint sized electric car up a long hill. Harry had a F-150 not too long ago and often reported in this NG what a great truck it was. That's before he sharpened his political correctness. Now a US made truck is crap because he owns a Japanese model. Eisboch I haven't owned an F150 for nearly 10 years. It was a good truck. The Toyota truck that replaced it was better. I doubt I ever stated the US-made truck was "crap." I have heard those sorts of allegations, however, from SW Tom and I believe from you. Speaking of F-150s...saw an ad in the local paper saying 2008 base trucks could be had for a few pennies under $14K CDN. Man...I brought it up but the wife squashed that right away. She's rather pay twice as much for a Forester or RAV4. My wife is "up" for new car, and I'm trying to convince her a Forester is what she wants. It isn't working. :} Show her the Consumer Reports ratings for small SUVs and talk her into test driving one. A bit underpowered and the speedo is hard to read while wearing sunglasses...otherwise very pleasant to drive. Does it have an automatic and can it be towed 4 down without modification? |
Gas prices .. some good news
"Boater" wrote in message ... Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:31:21 -0500, Boater wrote: No, you didn't. I wasn't dumb enough to get drafted Damn - you are such an ass sometimes. Nothing personal, Tom. I'm just unimpressed by our entire involvement in Vietnam, other than the horror of 55,000 American lives wasted, tens of thousands of U.S. troops seriously injured, and millions of Asians killed and maimed. Those losses I find tragic and impressive. The war was a...what's that term you old soldiers like...cluster****, the dumbest war we got involved in in the last 100 years, until our recent one against Iraq. Blame for it goes all the way back to the SEATO treaty. I didn't have to resist the draft, but I have friends who did. *They* were right. God, it must be tough to be you. You are very close to, if not *the* most cynical, negative person I've ever listened to sprew forth their POV's. Eisboch |
Gas prices .. some good news
|
Gas prices .. some good news
"Boater" wrote in message ... It's way past time to break the corporate mentality and start over. Corporations have outlived their usefulness, and turned into leeches on society. Call your new leader and have him nationalize all corporations. He'll love the idea. Eisboch |
Gas prices .. some good news
Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message ... Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:31:21 -0500, Boater wrote: No, you didn't. I wasn't dumb enough to get drafted Damn - you are such an ass sometimes. Nothing personal, Tom. I'm just unimpressed by our entire involvement in Vietnam, other than the horror of 55,000 American lives wasted, tens of thousands of U.S. troops seriously injured, and millions of Asians killed and maimed. Those losses I find tragic and impressive. The war was a...what's that term you old soldiers like...cluster****, the dumbest war we got involved in in the last 100 years, until our recent one against Iraq. Blame for it goes all the way back to the SEATO treaty. I didn't have to resist the draft, but I have friends who did. *They* were right. God, it must be tough to be you. You are very close to, if not *the* most cynical, negative person I've ever listened to sprew forth their POV's. Eisboch I should have "positive" feelings about our involvement in Vietnam? With 55,000 dead Americans, tens of thousands more seriously injured, billions of our dollars wasted, millions of Asians dead, and nothing to show for our "investment" there other than huge profits for the military-industrial complex? Hell, we didn't even learn any lessons from that debacle. Tell me, Richard, what did we gain from that war? What were we doing there, besides propping up a series of corrupt right-wing dictators? Vietnam was screwed by the French, the Japanese, the allies after WW II, the French again, and then the Americans. All they wanted was us the hell out of their country. |
Gas prices .. some good news
Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message ... It's way past time to break the corporate mentality and start over. Corporations have outlived their usefulness, and turned into leeches on society. Call your new leader and have him nationalize all corporations. He'll love the idea. Eisboch Bush seems to be doing that via Paulson...of course, he won't tell us where the money is going. |
Gas prices .. some good news
"Jim" wrote in message ... Boater wrote: Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:42:23 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: wrote in message t... Tough call. I don't like these bailouts, but can we afford not to? In this country, 1 in 10 jobs are connected to the auto industry. If the auto companies fail, we're talking depression, not recession. All of this, could get real scary, real quick. This may sound harsh, but I am just about convinced that we are beyond any form of healthy avenues for recovery. The reasons are varied and there's plenty of blame to pass around, including the consumer. At this point though, it just doesn't matter. Assigning blame doesn't fix the problems. I think we may just have to bite the bullet, allow Banks, Investment firms, GM, GMAC, Ford, Ford Motor Credit and Chrysler (whoever they are now-a-days) to file Chapter 11 bankrupcy, reorganize and start again. That will unfortunatly cause bankrupcies in many supporting industrys but they are currently structured to support what exists now, not as it should be. Everyone is jumping on the bailout bandwagon. American Express just filed to become a bank, thereby qualifying for some of the bailout money to cover bad accounts. That's too much. Enough. Like a hurricane every 100 years or so, it is going to require cleaning out the deadwood before the forests can grow again. Damn straight. And what is your plan for the millions of workers who will lose their jobs? Oh...I know...let them all die. I would start by firing every member of an automaker's management team, eliminating whatever "equity" the shareholders still have, renegotiating all existing labor and supplier contracts, and hiring innovative management that can begin producing world-class energy efficient cars within two years, even if they have to buy the technology until they can develop their own. Screw the investors? I don't think so. Burn all labor contracts. Fire everybody. Sell the brand an equipment to an automaker who knows how to do business. Hire back employees that can demonstrate needed skills and collect the union cards as they enter the work place. Start fresh and build innovative earth friendly vehicles. As for the employees that don't get rehired, Americans, except for Obama, Don't just let our people die. We'll find work for them even if it means pushing out the illegals. Maybe they could bend and scrape, cleaning your house or picking your crops master. |
Gas prices .. some good news
"Boater" wrote in message ... Don White wrote: wrote in message ... On Nov 13, 2:38 am, "Eisboch" wrote: I don't consider UAW members "slobs", but I agree with his overall assesment. I was a bit over the top with that. I don't really blame the workers, they're just taking advantage of the high-paying jobs available to them. The UAW is specifically the one to blame here, by forcing the automakers into paying this kind of money to unskilled workers, ultimately bringing about the death of the entire American auto industry. It's past time to break the unions and come back to reality. They've outlived their usefulness, and turned into leeches on society as a whole. It's way past time to break the corporate mentality and start over. Corporations have outlived their usefulness, and turned into leeches on society. It's corpoprate greed that has sold us all down the river. We see it locally in our electric power company. They have a monopoly, so are always looking to raise the rates while the senior execs earn 44% over managers in comparable positions in the rest of the country. |
Gas prices .. some good news
"Boater" wrote in message ... I should have "positive" feelings about our involvement in Vietnam? With 55,000 dead Americans, tens of thousands more seriously injured, billions of our dollars wasted, millions of Asians dead, and nothing to show for our "investment" there other than huge profits for the military-industrial complex? Hell, we didn't even learn any lessons from that debacle. Tell me, Richard, what did we gain from that war? What were we doing there, besides propping up a series of corrupt right-wing dictators? Vietnam was screwed by the French, the Japanese, the allies after WW II, the French again, and then the Americans. All they wanted was us the hell out of their country. I understand. I also understand the point Vic made. It was a different time, a different era and many of us that participated did so because we thought we were doing the right thing. You continue to harp on the subject, making negative comments of those that responded to the times in a different world and without benefit of playing Monday morning quarterback like you can. Let me ask you this: When the troops finally come home from Iraq are you going to start chastising them for volunteering because *you* didn't agree with the war? If you are consistent, I'll bet you will. Eisboch |
Gas prices .. some good news
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:24:18 -0500, Jim wrote:
Boater wrote: Jim wrote: wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 11:38:58 +0000, Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:12:16 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: "D.Duck" wrote in message ... My hope is that the GM/Ford/Chrysler problems are resolved (if resolvable) in bankruptcy, not throwing more tax payer dollars at them. Duck, I couldn't agree with you more. Chapter 11 isn't permanent. It allows for "reorganization" which is exactly what the auto industry needs to do right now. Revise business plans, products and re-negotiate the union contracts under the watchful eye of a bankruptcy judge. Handing them a pile of taxpayer money, calling it a government "investment" just to keep them in business under their current organizational structures won't do a damn thing. I agree. Tough call. I don't like these bailouts, but can we afford not to? In this country, 1 in 10 jobs are connected to the auto industry. If the auto companies fail, we're talking depression, not recession. All of this, could get real scary, real quick. Busting the unions should be a requisite part of any bailout plan. Otherwise they will be back again in a few years looking for another handout. It's time we earn from our mistakes and stop repeating them. This from a guy whose career highlight was cleaning the heads aboard a navy ship? We used to send numb-nuts like you all over the ship looking for replacements for burned out headlights. You do realize many Navy ships have carried vehicles. And if you checked one and a headlight was out, you got one from stores. And gofers generally ask where to get the stuff. Casady |
Gas prices .. some good news
Richard Casady wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:24:18 -0500, Jim wrote: Boater wrote: Jim wrote: wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 11:38:58 +0000, Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:12:16 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: "D.Duck" wrote in message ... My hope is that the GM/Ford/Chrysler problems are resolved (if resolvable) in bankruptcy, not throwing more tax payer dollars at them. Duck, I couldn't agree with you more. Chapter 11 isn't permanent. It allows for "reorganization" which is exactly what the auto industry needs to do right now. Revise business plans, products and re-negotiate the union contracts under the watchful eye of a bankruptcy judge. Handing them a pile of taxpayer money, calling it a government "investment" just to keep them in business under their current organizational structures won't do a damn thing. I agree. Tough call. I don't like these bailouts, but can we afford not to? In this country, 1 in 10 jobs are connected to the auto industry. If the auto companies fail, we're talking depression, not recession. All of this, could get real scary, real quick. Busting the unions should be a requisite part of any bailout plan. Otherwise they will be back again in a few years looking for another handout. It's time we earn from our mistakes and stop repeating them. This from a guy whose career highlight was cleaning the heads aboard a navy ship? We used to send numb-nuts like you all over the ship looking for replacements for burned out headlights. You do realize many Navy ships have carried vehicles. And if you checked one and a headlight was out, you got one from stores. And gofers generally ask where to get the stuff. Casady No wonder wars last so long. |
Gas prices .. some good news
"Richard Casady" wrote in message ... On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:24:18 -0500, Jim wrote: Boater wrote: Jim wrote: wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 11:38:58 +0000, Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:12:16 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: "D.Duck" wrote in message ... My hope is that the GM/Ford/Chrysler problems are resolved (if resolvable) in bankruptcy, not throwing more tax payer dollars at them. Duck, I couldn't agree with you more. Chapter 11 isn't permanent. It allows for "reorganization" which is exactly what the auto industry needs to do right now. Revise business plans, products and re-negotiate the union contracts under the watchful eye of a bankruptcy judge. Handing them a pile of taxpayer money, calling it a government "investment" just to keep them in business under their current organizational structures won't do a damn thing. I agree. Tough call. I don't like these bailouts, but can we afford not to? In this country, 1 in 10 jobs are connected to the auto industry. If the auto companies fail, we're talking depression, not recession. All of this, could get real scary, real quick. Busting the unions should be a requisite part of any bailout plan. Otherwise they will be back again in a few years looking for another handout. It's time we earn from our mistakes and stop repeating them. This from a guy whose career highlight was cleaning the heads aboard a navy ship? We used to send numb-nuts like you all over the ship looking for replacements for burned out headlights. You do realize many Navy ships have carried vehicles. And if you checked one and a headlight was out, you got one from stores. And gofers generally ask where to get the stuff. Casady ~~ Snerk ~~ Guess the joke was usually on Jimbo. |
Gas prices .. some good news
Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message ... I should have "positive" feelings about our involvement in Vietnam? With 55,000 dead Americans, tens of thousands more seriously injured, billions of our dollars wasted, millions of Asians dead, and nothing to show for our "investment" there other than huge profits for the military-industrial complex? Hell, we didn't even learn any lessons from that debacle. Tell me, Richard, what did we gain from that war? What were we doing there, besides propping up a series of corrupt right-wing dictators? Vietnam was screwed by the French, the Japanese, the allies after WW II, the French again, and then the Americans. All they wanted was us the hell out of their country. I understand. I also understand the point Vic made. It was a different time, a different era and many of us that participated did so because we thought we were doing the right thing. You continue to harp on the subject, making negative comments of those that responded to the times in a different world and without benefit of playing Monday morning quarterback like you can. Let me ask you this: When the troops finally come home from Iraq are you going to start chastising them for volunteering because *you* didn't agree with the war? If you are consistent, I'll bet you will. Eisboch I don't fault those who volunteered specifically for Bush's war...after all, they were lied to by the Bush Administration, too. More recently, I suspect there are far fewer new volunteers for Iraq than there are volunteers for the military as an employer of last resort. Times are pretty tough, and the military is hiring. You figure it out. I also don't fault those who served in Vietnam. I do have problems with those who think they were involved in something over there that had anything to do with keeping the United States safe from foreign attack. It's the war I find disgusting, and those who try to glorify it or their role in it. Too many young men of that era had no reasonable ability or way to avoid the draft, were sucked into the military, and got killed or maimed, and for no good reason. |
Gas prices .. some good news
Don White wrote:
"Richard Casady" wrote in message ... On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:24:18 -0500, Jim wrote: Boater wrote: Jim wrote: wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 11:38:58 +0000, Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:12:16 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: "D.Duck" wrote in message ... My hope is that the GM/Ford/Chrysler problems are resolved (if resolvable) in bankruptcy, not throwing more tax payer dollars at them. Duck, I couldn't agree with you more. Chapter 11 isn't permanent. It allows for "reorganization" which is exactly what the auto industry needs to do right now. Revise business plans, products and re-negotiate the union contracts under the watchful eye of a bankruptcy judge. Handing them a pile of taxpayer money, calling it a government "investment" just to keep them in business under their current organizational structures won't do a damn thing. I agree. Tough call. I don't like these bailouts, but can we afford not to? In this country, 1 in 10 jobs are connected to the auto industry. If the auto companies fail, we're talking depression, not recession. All of this, could get real scary, real quick. Busting the unions should be a requisite part of any bailout plan. Otherwise they will be back again in a few years looking for another handout. It's time we earn from our mistakes and stop repeating them. This from a guy whose career highlight was cleaning the heads aboard a navy ship? We used to send numb-nuts like you all over the ship looking for replacements for burned out headlights. You do realize many Navy ships have carried vehicles. And if you checked one and a headlight was out, you got one from stores. And gofers generally ask where to get the stuff. Casady ~~ Snerk ~~ Guess the joke was usually on Jimbo. My guess is that FloridaJim *was* the joke his entire time aboard ship. |
Gas prices .. some good news
Boater wrote:
Eisboch wrote: "Boater" wrote in message ... I should have "positive" feelings about our involvement in Vietnam? With 55,000 dead Americans, tens of thousands more seriously injured, billions of our dollars wasted, millions of Asians dead, and nothing to show for our "investment" there other than huge profits for the military-industrial complex? Hell, we didn't even learn any lessons from that debacle. Tell me, Richard, what did we gain from that war? What were we doing there, besides propping up a series of corrupt right-wing dictators? Vietnam was screwed by the French, the Japanese, the allies after WW II, the French again, and then the Americans. All they wanted was us the hell out of their country. I understand. I also understand the point Vic made. It was a different time, a different era and many of us that participated did so because we thought we were doing the right thing. You continue to harp on the subject, making negative comments of those that responded to the times in a different world and without benefit of playing Monday morning quarterback like you can. Let me ask you this: When the troops finally come home from Iraq are you going to start chastising them for volunteering because *you* didn't agree with the war? If you are consistent, I'll bet you will. Eisboch I don't fault those who volunteered specifically for Bush's war...after all, they were lied to by the Bush Administration, too. More recently, I suspect there are far fewer new volunteers for Iraq than there are volunteers for the military as an employer of last resort. Times are pretty tough, and the military is hiring. You figure it out. I also don't fault those who served in Vietnam. I do have problems with those who think they were involved in something over there that had anything to do with keeping the United States safe from foreign attack. It's the war I find disgusting, and those who try to glorify it or their role in it. Too many young men of that era had no reasonable ability or way to avoid the draft, were sucked into the military, and got killed or maimed, and for no good reason. And a miserable piece of poo like you, who most of us find repulsive, gets a free pass. There is no justice. |
Gas prices .. some good news
Boater wrote:
Don White wrote: "Richard Casady" wrote in message ... On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:24:18 -0500, Jim wrote: Boater wrote: Jim wrote: wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 11:38:58 +0000, Tom Francis - SWSports wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:12:16 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote: "D.Duck" wrote in message ... My hope is that the GM/Ford/Chrysler problems are resolved (if resolvable) in bankruptcy, not throwing more tax payer dollars at them. Duck, I couldn't agree with you more. Chapter 11 isn't permanent. It allows for "reorganization" which is exactly what the auto industry needs to do right now. Revise business plans, products and re-negotiate the union contracts under the watchful eye of a bankruptcy judge. Handing them a pile of taxpayer money, calling it a government "investment" just to keep them in business under their current organizational structures won't do a damn thing. I agree. Tough call. I don't like these bailouts, but can we afford not to? In this country, 1 in 10 jobs are connected to the auto industry. If the auto companies fail, we're talking depression, not recession. All of this, could get real scary, real quick. Busting the unions should be a requisite part of any bailout plan. Otherwise they will be back again in a few years looking for another handout. It's time we earn from our mistakes and stop repeating them. This from a guy whose career highlight was cleaning the heads aboard a navy ship? We used to send numb-nuts like you all over the ship looking for replacements for burned out headlights. You do realize many Navy ships have carried vehicles. And if you checked one and a headlight was out, you got one from stores. And gofers generally ask where to get the stuff. Casady ~~ Snerk ~~ Guess the joke was usually on Jimbo. My guess is that FloridaJim *was* the joke his entire time aboard ship. Here's a riddle for you. Who's salary history is exhibited on the internet? |
Gas prices .. some good news
|
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:36 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2014 BoatBanter.com