Gas prices .. some good news
 

Gas prices .. some good news
 

On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:42:23 -0500, Eisboch wrote:

wrote in message
t...


Tough call. I don't like these bailouts, but can we afford not to? In
this country, 1 in 10 jobs are connected to the auto industry. If the
auto companies fail, we're talking depression, not recession. All of
this, could get real scary, real quick.

This may sound harsh, but I am just about convinced that we are beyond
any form of healthy avenues for recovery. The reasons are varied and
there's plenty of blame to pass around, including the consumer. At this
point though, it just doesn't matter. Assigning blame doesn't fix the
problems.

I think we may just have to bite the bullet, allow Banks, Investment
firms, GM, GMAC, Ford, Ford Motor Credit and Chrysler (whoever they are
now-a-days) to file Chapter 11 bankrupcy, reorganize and start again.
That will unfortunatly cause bankrupcies in many supporting industrys
but they are currently structured to support what exists now, not as it
should be.

Everyone is jumping on the bailout bandwagon. American Express just
filed to become a bank, thereby qualifying for some of the bailout money
to cover bad accounts. That's too much. Enough.

Like a hurricane every 100 years or so, it is going to require cleaning
out the deadwood before the forests can grow again.

Eisboch

A part of me agrees with you. The deadwood needs to be gone, but I just
can't accept the "collateral damage". If we let the companies you
mentioned fail, we are talking breadlines. One of the reasons for the
Great Depression was Hoover's hands-off approach. I don't like these
bailouts, but they may be cheaper in the long run.

Gas prices .. some good news
 

"BAR" wrote in message
...


I believe they tried to live beyond their means, at least in the US, by
using the perceived or believed value of their home as a checking account.
Now they are fat in the belly with memories of lavish vacations and a
mountain of debt.


Someone made a similar observation on one of the cable news interviews
yesterday.
I forget who it was, but (I think it was a woman) she also pointed out that
we have a whole generation now-a-days with no direct contact to the
Depression years. She pointed out that in the past, families sat around at
the dinner table with grandma or grandpa describing in real terms what the
Great Depression was like. The stories had an impact on the financial
management of the next generation's money and income.

Now, the stories of life in the Great Depression are read in history books
only and have about as much influence on people as stories of the Pilgrims
landing on Plymouth Rock.

Eisboch

Gas prices .. some good news
 

"D.Duck" wrote in message
...

"Canuck57" wrote in message
...

"D.Duck" wrote in message
...

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...
When Bush first took office the national average price for a gallon of
regular gas was $1.46.

Today, eight years later, regular is selling around here for about
$2.21/gal. In some places, like Cleveland, Ohio, the price has
dropped below 2 bucks/gal.

Not bad for 8 years.

Nice job, W.


Eisboch (the facts are true, the rest is a joke to yank a few chains)

The lower gas prices are nice. It's the rest of the *world* economy I'm
worried about.

Insightful. It is really called deflation. The opposite of inflation.
With the market loosing so much value, people losing jobs, the prices
people will pay is going with it. The right "sustainable" price for oil
would be about $70-85 barrel.

Sounds good at first glance, but it is in reality a sure sign of
depression. It means that homes will further decrease in value and even
more people will "walk away" from their debts. In effect, the US economy
value is equalizing to India, China, South America...

This will lead to total collapse as how does the US government pay for a
12 trillion debt in an outright stalled economy? Government prints money
like a crack junky shoots dope.

Add the insatiable spend-crazy lust for governments to bail out companies
like GM and the banks paints a bleak picture for the US economy. Very
bleak indeed. Every time the government announces a bail out we get a
market tumble.

My hope is that the GM/Ford/Chrysler problems are resolved (if resolvable)
in bankruptcy, not throwing more tax payer dollars at them.

Not likely for GM. I haven't looked at Chrysler or Ford, but GM is so far
in debt I would deem it impossible for them to get out and survive. In at
least chapter 11 is inevitable one way or another. Even if they get $50
billion, at their current burn rate and prior obligations being deferred,
that will not last long.

And there isn't room for 3 any more. What will they do with the cars they
make that no one buys? Pile them up across the country and let them rust?
The middle class is out of gas with credit and until that balance of equity
gets greater than the debt any half brained investor is going to see them as
bankrupt be it declared or not.

GM needs to go down if it can't pay the bills. Makes room for others to
survive and produce products people will use.

GM as a brand will survive, sold as part of it's liquidation. Choice
profitable models and brands will still be made.

Gas prices .. some good news
 

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

"D.Duck" wrote in message
...


My hope is that the GM/Ford/Chrysler problems are resolved (if
resolvable) in bankruptcy, not throwing more tax payer dollars at them.


Duck, I couldn't agree with you more. Chapter 11 isn't permanent. It
allows for "reorganization" which is exactly what the auto industry needs
to do right now. Revise business plans, products and re-negotiate the
union contracts under the watchful eye of a bankruptcy judge.

Handing them a pile of taxpayer money, calling it a government
"investment" just to keep them in business under their current
organizational structures won't do a damn thing.

Eisboch

I agree. But one should view these as government taxes to prop up business.
One way or another it is going to be main street taxes propping up these
businesses that refuse to change to the times. There have been promises of
profitability for decades than have fallen by the wayside. Relief isn't
what they need, chapter 11 is the start of real change.

Gas prices .. some good news
 

Boater wrote:
wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:12:21 -0500, Boater wrote:


You can be sure no one in the Bush Administration gives a damn about
worker bees. Oh...and I just read somewhere that several of the
financial institutions, banks mostly, getting taxpayer bailout money
have reserved some of it for future bonuses for executives.

Yeah, like 10% of *our* money.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...laries-banking


We're not there yet, and we may not get there in my lifetime, but what
we need in this country is a total restructuring of society that adds
fairness. I'm not talking communism, but I wouldn't mind a bit more
European socialism. More and more this country seems to exist only to
help the wealthy attain more wealth. If that is the direction it is
heading, then it deserves to fail.

If it does fail, and I hope it doesn't, it's time to redefine
capitalism. There is no way a few greedy, incompetent *******s should
be able to take down the world's economy.


Going back to the confiscatory tax rates of the 1950s might help. You
know...something like a tax rate of 90% on *all* income over $500,000.
I'd like to see corporations invest in technology, job training, product
improvement and worker benefits, instead of in overpaying mediocre
management. I wouldn't mind seeing us do away with a number of the
purely speculative stock and money instruments, too.

There are too many tax loopholes. Close them all. How much money could
the IRS pull in from people avoiding the marriage tax by filing
separately or worse claiming individual status when married.

Gas prices .. some good news
 

"Boater" wrote in message
...
Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:12:16 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

"D.Duck" wrote in message
...

My hope is that the GM/Ford/Chrysler problems are resolved (if
resolvable) in bankruptcy, not throwing more tax payer dollars at them.

Duck, I couldn't agree with you more. Chapter 11 isn't permanent. It
allows for "reorganization" which is exactly what the auto industry
needs to do right now. Revise business plans, products and
re-negotiate the union contracts under the watchful eye of a bankruptcy
judge.

Handing them a pile of taxpayer money, calling it a government
"investment" just to keep them in business under their current
organizational structures won't do a damn thing.

I agree.


I think the bailouts should be stopped dead until the Bush Administration
reveals who has gotten every dollar handed out so far.

I am sure at this point, Obama is aware of the spending. Last I heard he
supports it.

Gas prices .. some good news
 

Boater wrote:
Jim wrote:
Boater wrote:
Jim wrote:
wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 11:38:58 +0000, Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:

On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:12:16 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"D.Duck" wrote in message
...

My hope is that the GM/Ford/Chrysler problems are resolved (if
resolvable) in bankruptcy, not throwing more tax payer dollars at
them.


Duck, I couldn't agree with you more. Chapter 11 isn't
permanent. It
allows for "reorganization" which is exactly what the auto industry
needs to do right now. Revise business plans, products and
re-negotiate the union contracts under the watchful eye of a
bankruptcy
judge.

Handing them a pile of taxpayer money, calling it a government
"investment" just to keep them in business under their current
organizational structures won't do a damn thing.
I agree.

Tough call. I don't like these bailouts, but can we afford not to?
In this country, 1 in 10 jobs are connected to the auto industry.
If the auto companies fail, we're talking depression, not
recession. All of this, could get real scary, real quick.

Busting the unions should be a requisite part of any bailout plan.
Otherwise they will be back again in a few years looking for another
handout. It's time we earn from our mistakes and stop repeating them.


This from a guy whose career highlight was cleaning the heads aboard
a navy ship?

We used to send numb-nuts like you all over the ship looking for
replacements for burned out headlights.


No, you didn't. I wasn't dumb enough to get drafted, or, in lieu of
that, join up, so I could kill Asians who were not threatening my country.

I don't think there is person reading this news group that isn't aware
of your cowardice. Why do you keep bringing it up?

Gas prices .. some good news
 

Eisboch wrote:
Boater wrote:

I think the bailouts should be stopped dead until the Bush Administration
reveals who has gotten every dollar handed out so far.


I agree with you. I am not sure where the problem lies. We were supposed
to have an oversight report issued to the public by now, as required by the
Congress written and passed legislation on this bailout package.

Problem is, they haven't appointed anyone to the oversight position yet.

I don't blame Bush singularly. The whole stinking pile of incompetents in
Wash DC should be tarred and feathered.

Eisboch


Here here. Let's do it.

Gas prices .. some good news
 

wrote in message
t...
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 11:38:58 +0000, Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:

On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:12:16 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"D.Duck" wrote in message
news:G_Odnc2FKtknEYbUnZ2dnUVZ_tfinZ2d@giganews. com...


My hope is that the GM/Ford/Chrysler problems are resolved (if
resolvable) in bankruptcy, not throwing more tax payer dollars at
them.


Duck, I couldn't agree with you more. Chapter 11 isn't permanent. It
allows for "reorganization" which is exactly what the auto industry
needs to do right now. Revise business plans, products and
re-negotiate the union contracts under the watchful eye of a bankruptcy
judge.

Handing them a pile of taxpayer money, calling it a government
"investment" just to keep them in business under their current
organizational structures won't do a damn thing.

I agree.

Tough call. I don't like these bailouts, but can we afford not to? In
this country, 1 in 10 jobs are connected to the auto industry. If the
auto companies fail, we're talking depression, not recession. All of
this, could get real scary, real quick.

I will argue yes, they can afford not to bail them out.

When GM is gone, there will be holes left. It will not take long before a
capitalist will buy up a plant or two, fire it back up and make money and
parts/cars.

For example, if GM goes down, say Ford picks up the brand image for $200
million on the cheap. Many ex-GM buyers will start to buy more Fords.

The problem is excess capacity driving costs nuts. Yet GM/Chrysler/Ford
can't downsize or the lower cash flow will cause them to miss their
obligations. There isn't room for 3 any more. In fact, it might go down to
one.

Another possibility, in chapter 11 they can be sold off. Say chapter 11
lets GM off of the union issues, lets them fix the financial issues. And
say 5 billionaires get together and buy it out for $25 billion on a clean
slate, fire dysfunctional management, send the union packing, and then
rebuild a lean mean high quality GM without the baggage that caused the
problem.

Having the tax system hurt everyone a little also gives everyone a little
less to spend on cars, further reducing the market. Moving GMs problems to
main street tax payers is counter productive as government inefficiencies
make it a loser. When main street pays you still have the fundamental
problems in GM waiting money.