Gas prices .. some good news
 

On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:24:18 -0500, Jim wrote:

We used to send numb-nuts like you all over the ship looking for
replacements for burned out headlights.

I heard stories of Marines on carrier duty being sent to the parts bin
to get a bucket of prop wash and a couple of yards of flight line.

I don't think I would have fallen for it, but I gotta admit, that
would have been pretty funny.

Gas prices .. some good news
 

On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:31:21 -0500, Boater
wrote:

No, you didn't. I wasn't dumb enough to get drafted

Damn - you are such an ass sometimes.

Gas prices .. some good news
 

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:42:23 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

wrote in message
t...

Tough call. I don't like these bailouts, but can we afford not to? In
this country, 1 in 10 jobs are connected to the auto industry. If the
auto companies fail, we're talking depression, not recession. All of
this, could get real scary, real quick.
This may sound harsh, but I am just about convinced that we are beyond any
form of healthy avenues for recovery.
The reasons are varied and there's plenty of blame to pass around, including
the consumer. At this point though, it just doesn't matter. Assigning
blame doesn't fix the problems.

I think we may just have to bite the bullet, allow Banks, Investment firms,
GM, GMAC, Ford, Ford Motor Credit and Chrysler (whoever they are now-a-days)
to file Chapter 11 bankrupcy, reorganize and start again. That will
unfortunatly cause bankrupcies in many supporting industrys but they are
currently structured to support what exists now, not as it should be.

Everyone is jumping on the bailout bandwagon. American Express just filed
to become a bank, thereby qualifying for some of the bailout money to cover
bad accounts. That's too much. Enough.

Like a hurricane every 100 years or so, it is going to require cleaning out
the deadwood before the forests can grow again.

Damn straight.


And what is your plan for the millions of workers who will lose their
jobs? Oh...I know...let them all die.

I would start by firing every member of an automaker's management team,
eliminating whatever "equity" the shareholders still have, renegotiating
all existing labor and supplier contracts, and hiring innovative
management that can begin producing world-class energy efficient cars
within two years, even if they have to buy the technology until they can
develop their own.

Gas prices .. some good news
 

On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:09:32 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

Boy, time flies when you're having fun, huh? Seems like only yesterday you
were full of compliments for Ford regarding your F-150.

Mine is very nice - except for not being able to tow.

Gas prices .. some good news
 

Eisboch wrote:
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 22:40:09 -0500, tin cup wrote:

The average wage was around 58,000.00 a year.
That's misleading, benefits add at least another 20,000. That is
pretty good pay for unskiled labor, about 2 or 3 times what most
factory workers get.


I saw a news clip recently of a GM "worker" standing beside a console on
the assembly line, supervising a bunch of robotic arms assembling a car. His
primary job was to hit the red "Emergency Off" button, if something went
screwy or was called to do so.

His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon
retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along
with his pension.

I don't deny anybody the right to hold a good job with decent pay and
benefits, but it really should be in concert with the person's initiative to
prepare him/her self for that career. I am sorry, but standing around
watching an automated assembly line put cars together for that kind of pay
and benefits just doesn't do it for me, especially when I see others who
have worked hard to educate and qualify themselves for a trade making far
less.

Eisboch


That may be what had to be done at the time. Someone had to do it and
also the other things associated with the robots. A Machinist does not
stand at the lathe all day long. He takes the jobs when they get to him.
He is paid for his expertise and to do the job. A "college kid" would
not do it or could not do it. Some College Graduates do work for a
living. They are paid to do the job not for their piece of paper as is
Wall Street.

Gas prices .. some good news
 

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:31:21 -0500, Boater
wrote:

No, you didn't. I wasn't dumb enough to get drafted

Damn - you are such an ass sometimes.


Nothing personal, Tom. I'm just unimpressed by our entire involvement in
Vietnam, other than the horror of 55,000 American lives wasted, tens of
thousands of U.S. troops seriously injured, and millions of Asians
killed and maimed. Those losses I find tragic and impressive. The war
was a...what's that term you old soldiers like...cluster****, the
dumbest war we got involved in in the last 100 years, until our recent
one against Iraq. Blame for it goes all the way back to the SEATO treaty.

I didn't have to resist the draft, but I have friends who did. *They*
were right.

Gas prices .. some good news
 

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:51:05 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon
retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along
with his pension.

And, this is really a ****er, now GM wants the US Taxpayer to dig them
out of the health care hole by paying for the ridiculous health care
packages for their retireees.

So now we have GM begging some working stiff who works, pays taxes and
either doesn't have a health package or only Major Medical at an
exhorbitant rate to sponsor some moron who put four screws in a
dashboard for most of his life and was paid $34/hr plus benefits for
doing so and now has a $4 co-pay for everything health care related.

Here's what I think GM should do - pre-pack a Chapter 11 bankruptcy,
get rid of the ridiculous union contracts and start over again with
government backing (not loans) with reasonable labor costs and
competitive products.

That will do more for the American economy than any TARP.
I think everyone should be assured quality health care. A lot will label
that socialist or whatever, since it crosses some line some Corporate
tax dodger, told him it does. What you are saying life isn't fair. That
those who earn more are less than moral. Those that work for GM etc
applied for the job. Those that work at McDonalds applied for that job.
Those that choose to work for themselves took that job and assumed the
responsibility and task to provide for all those things and struggle for
higher rewards. Now they bitch because they don't have the benefits free
from somebody. Gm Workers and any other aren't provided anything free.
It is part of their compensation or pay.
If you haven't noticed 85,000.00 a year is about 9,000.00 in 1970
dollars. my conjecture.

Gas prices .. some good news
 

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 06:41:51 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:51:05 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon
retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along
with his pension.
And, this is really a ****er, now GM wants the US Taxpayer to dig them
out of the health care hole by paying for the ridiculous health care
packages for their retireees.

So now we have GM begging some working stiff who works, pays taxes and
either doesn't have a health package or only Major Medical at an
exhorbitant rate to sponsor some moron who put four screws in a
dashboard for most of his life and was paid $34/hr plus benefits for
doing so and now has a $4 co-pay for everything health care related.

Here's what I think GM should do - pre-pack a Chapter 11 bankruptcy,
get rid of the ridiculous union contracts and start over again with
government backing (not loans) with reasonable labor costs and
competitive products.

That will do more for the American economy than any TARP.
And perhaps like Japan, put the burden of paying for health care on
society as a whole, and not on the manufacturers, eh? Would you go for
that, too?

Not at all, but let's face it - the health care provisions of the
retirement package are onerous to the health of the corporation.

I'll give you an example. My back operation cost $14,356 in total
which was cheap considering that the main surgeon and assistant were
freebies. That includes room, operating room, drugs, anesthesia,
yada, yada, yada.

My copay for that was $2,300. A UAW retiree, the guy who put four
screws in the afore mentioned dashboard for his career, for that same
operation, which would have included surgeon and assistant fees
totaling about $21,000, would have been $4.

A pre-packaged Chapter1 bankruptcy would allow for restructuring the
health care provisions to something a little more reasonable.
Why do you get to make the rules as to what is reasonable for everyone else?

Gas prices .. some good news
 

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 07:48:55 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 06:41:51 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:51:05 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

His "package" (including benefits) was in excess of $85k/year and upon
retirement could look forward to full, GM financed health coverage along
with his pension.
And, this is really a ****er, now GM wants the US Taxpayer to dig them
out of the health care hole by paying for the ridiculous health care
packages for their retireees.

So now we have GM begging some working stiff who works, pays taxes and
either doesn't have a health package or only Major Medical at an
exhorbitant rate to sponsor some moron who put four screws in a
dashboard for most of his life and was paid $34/hr plus benefits for
doing so and now has a $4 co-pay for everything health care related.

Here's what I think GM should do - pre-pack a Chapter 11 bankruptcy,
get rid of the ridiculous union contracts and start over again with
government backing (not loans) with reasonable labor costs and
competitive products.

That will do more for the American economy than any TARP.
And perhaps like Japan, put the burden of paying for health care on
society as a whole, and not on the manufacturers, eh? Would you go for
that, too?
Not at all, but let's face it - the health care provisions of the
retirement package are onerous to the health of the corporation.

I'll give you an example. My back operation cost $14,356 in total
which was cheap considering that the main surgeon and assistant were
freebies. That includes room, operating room, drugs, anesthesia,
yada, yada, yada.

My copay for that was $2,300. A UAW retiree, the guy who put four
screws in the afore mentioned dashboard for his career, for that same
operation, which would have included surgeon and assistant fees
totaling about $21,000, would have been $4.

A pre-packaged Chapter1 bankruptcy would allow for restructuring the
health care provisions to something a little more reasonable.

"Restructurings" usually are much harder on the working stiffs than the
management pukes. And why should a retiree on a fixed income have to
fork over $2300 for necessary surgery?

I did - and the answer is because it was necessary. A lot of average
joes and "working stiffs" have to do it. Why does the UAW have an
advantage over everybody else.

I agree that the burden of paying for necessary health care should be
lifted from US corporations, and handled the way it is in other modern
countries.

Oh bull****. Tell me about the Canadian system again - you know the
one where the people who can afford to pay cross the border for their
treatments rather than stay in Canada. My daughter sees Canadian
patients all the time - regular basis - because they have long waits
or in some cases, treatments aren't available in Canada because of
costs and/or waiting in lies to have procedures done.

I'm also a bit wearing of hearing about Joe the Auto Assembly Line
Worker, whose career consisted of putting four screws in a dashboard.
If that is all Joe does, and it is unlikely, then that is the job
management wants done. It isn't his fault. I haven't been in an auto
plant in many years, but when I was last in one, I didn't see any jobs
like that,

Harry - stop with the party line crap. For crying out loud, there was
a Discovery channel program the other day about modern assembly lines
and there was one guy who did four screws into the dash of a Ford
pickup and did it over and over and over and over again. Said it was
pretty boring, but it paid well - $34/hr plus bennies.

Get your head out of the sand for once.
So you resent the fact that he makes a good living the American Dream
but isn't as righeous as you because you don't make that much or you
like Standard Oil or wage slavewry since as a business owner you are the
only one that should enjoy the Dream.

Gas prices .. some good news