Does the same hold true for those who catch and kill fish for fun? Many of
these "sportsmen" believe it is ok as long as you release the fish, in
reality a large percent of those released fish die. Maybe we should train
Orcas to destroy fishing boats to even the odds and make it a real sport.


"Chris" wrote in message
...

Question: does a hunter need a permit to bag another hunter?


I think they should be allowed to shoot each other without a permit. I
also
would not require deer to get permits to shoot the hunters either. If you
kill
an animal just for the fun (sport) of it, then the same should be done to
you....period.

I don't exactly "shoot" deer, as in using a rifle - I don't own a rifle.
But
I
have a big compound bow with 65 lbs of pull to it, and merely launch an
arrow
at a deer. It's more sporty that way - you have to get REAL CLOSE to a
deer

too.

Yes, that does sound a little more sporting
than blasting a 75-pound Bambi from 200 yards away using a high-powered
rifle
and scope. :-)


Where's the "sport" part? Does Bambi shoot back?


*SIGH*

Look, a deer (or turkey, duck, heck even a pronghorn antelope) have powerful
senses far keener than man. They *know* you are out there and can detect you,
smell you, see you....

A deer rifle could "blast a deer" from 200 yards away - as you and Chuck Gould
said. But with that compound bow of mine, I only have 3 sight pins on it (10
yards, 20 yards, 30 yards). Do you know how CLOSE 30 yards actually is? How
to get a deer to walk within 30 yards is a major challenge, because of their
wariness. Now with turkeys, they are torturous creatures that frustrate even
the most seasoned of hunters. They see in full color like a human, and can see
you and your human outline from probably a 1/4 mile away!

Ducks and geese seem to know that "something doesn't look right here..." and
will flare off just outside of shotgun range. They too have senses and aerial
acrobatics to elude a spray of shotgun shot.

Anyway, let's talk about boating in this thread... I like duckhunting and
boating with friends of mine. They have big Polarcraft duck boats with the big
pop-up blinds on them. They are about 14' jon boats and have about a 25hp
outboard on them. Kinda cool looking...

Butch Ammon

Harry,
Don't you feel bad using fish for your sadistic sport? How many fish have
you tortured and killed this year?



Fish facts for sal****er anglers

The more we learn about fish behavior, the more we have to learn

By Dr. David A. Ross
Sal****er Flyfishing magazine

Recently, I came across some scientific articles about fish and their
behavior that I thought would be of interest to Sal****er Flyfishing's
readers. Most of these scientific articles deal with a particular species of
fish. Can such studies apply to other species? Sometimes they can, and
sometimes they can't. Let's take a look at the useful information from these
articles, summarized.

Recovery of Stressed Fish


An exhausted fish takes longer to recover than you might think,
perhaps several hours, according to scientific studies.

Fishermen who practice catch-and-release generally understand that the
quicker a fish is brought to the boat and released, the better its chances
of recovery.

In the scientific sense, "recovery" means more than just resting for a few
minutes. During a long or hard fight, a fish might exhaust the energy stores
(glycogen) in its muscles and start to produce lactate (lactic acid). You
can have a similar response when you run too hard.

In a fish, a buildup of lactic acid can cause internal poisoning that might
result in the fish's death or leave it so weakened that it cannot escape a
predator. A fish has "recovered" from its exertions when the lactic-acid
buildup is cleared and it has replenished the glycogen in its muscles.

Fishermen often assume that if a fish swims away after it is released, it
has recovered. This, unfortunately, is usually not true. Most laboratory
studies indicate that recovery can take from eight to 24 hours. These
laboratory studies generally follow a procedure of first exercising a fish
until it is exhausted and then putting it in an isolated and restrictive
chamber to monitor its recovery. Under these conditions, a stressed fish is
not able to swim freely.

In nature, however, some fish, such as trout, will continue to swim and
remain active after they are caught and released. A group of scientists from
the University of Western Ontario (Reference 1 on page 62) decided to
determine if activity was beneficial to a fish after its release. In other
words, they decided to test the difference in the recovery times of trout
that swam freely after being released and those that were held in isolation.

Interestingly, these researchers found that sustained, low-speed swimming
actually enhances metabolic recovery in rainbow trout that had been
exercised nearly to exhaustion.

Fish that swam after being released recovered within two hours, whereas the
isolated fish needed more than six hours for recovery. A "cooling down"
period similar to that followed by many human athletes after exercise is
beneficial to trout, and perhaps to other species of fish. This suggests
that "resting" a fish in a live well might not do it any good.

In any case, a tired fish probably doesn't recover as quickly as many
fishermen suppose. Play fish quickly, and release them as soon as possible.

Stalking Prey

A group of German and American marine scientists (Reference 2) determined
that a European catfish was actually able to stalk its prey by following the
prey's wake.

The scientists found that this catfish could pick up the trail of a guppy 10
seconds after it had passed by, and then follow the trail for up to 55 times
the length of the guppy's body before attacking it.

Their studies of this ability, so far found in only this one species of
catfish, might eventually explain how some fish are able to feed in the
dark. It is possible that in addition to detecting the guppy's wake, the
catfish might also be following a chemical trail produced by the guppy. The
best guess, at present, is that the catfish's lateral line let it detect the
prey's wake.

A somewhat related study involving seals, which are mammals, has shown that
they can use their whiskers to detect prey.

For example, a masked harbor seal could easily follow the wake of a
miniature propeller-driven submarine after its motor had been turned off. If
the submarine had moved in a curved path, the seal would follow in a similar
path. Some scientists speculate that the whiskers of other marine mammals
might also act as one of their underwater sensors, helping them to detect
minute vibrations or turbulence.

We still have a lot to learn about how fish are able to detect prey in the
dark or in muddy water. Certainly, many species of fish can find and catch
food that they (or at least we) cannot see. Vibration and scent both play
roles, and many artificial lures appeal to a fish's lateral line, its sense
of smell, or both. This explains why flies that wiggle or "move water" work
so well, and suggests that this aspect of fly design probably merits more
study.
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Mark Browne wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Don White wrote:

I don't see where it's a sport anymore.
If your family needs the food...that's one thing, but to sit on the
edge
of
a field and blast away at a flock of geese walking around resting or
trying
to find feed......seems a bit like shooting fish in a barrell.
Same with deer hunting. With a high powered rifle and scope...not to
mention
ATV's & Ski Doos what chance does the deer have.
What's next?...laser rifles that are silent? The 'great white hunter'
could
blast holes in dozens of the beasts before they are scared off. The
Beatles said it all....'hey Bunglow Bill what did you kill'

Gould 0738 wrote in message
...
I think Harry will really be saddened to hear that I went to the
seminar
at
Fort A.P.Hill here in Virginia and got my deer permit for the base
this
coming
season. Venison steaks will be for dinner!

Butch Ammon


Deer hunting? Maybe your deer are bigger, meaner, and warier back
east
but
shooting a deer out west here anymore is like gunning down the
neighbor's
pet
goat.
Darn things are all semi-tame. They are so acclimated to people that
about
half
of them come up and beg for snacks when they see human beings. There
was
probably something to the "sport" at one time, but most of the deer
around
here
are not much bigger than (and no more clever than) a typical
petting-zoo
goat.




Isn't it wonderful? We overdevelop the earth and take away the habitat
of all sorts of wild critters, some of whom, like geese, then have to
forage wherever they can, and then we get aggravated when they swoop
down on a farmer's field to steal a little grain. So the farmer calls
some brave men with shotguns in, and they blast the geese to
smithereens.

It takes one brave man to shoot a goose, a duck or a deer. At least in
fishing, one can catch and release. Not so easy to shoot and release,
eh?

Once in a while, I'll catch a glimpse of some "hunting show" in which a
great white hunter will sit up in a tree with a gun or a bow and wait
for a harmless critter to walk into range. Then the guy will blast it
and practically get orgasmic when the animal falls over dead. What a
thrill, eh? Bubba shot himself one of them there dangerous elk! What a
man.

You eat meat or you don't. It's just that simple. Paying a butcher to
kill a
critter for you works out the same way; you just loose the connection
between something dying and you eating. It does not change the fact that
you
are eating animal flesh! Where do you suppose that pink chunk in the
butchers showcase came from?

Most of nature does not seem to have any problem with this - humans have
enough food and spare time to get worked up about it. If it bothers you,
don't kill and eat critters. And don't pay others to kill them in your
name.

Some people have come to terms with these facts and are happy
carnivores -
deal with it.

Mark Browne
PS Do you know how many animal parts are found in a box of cereal?
Almost
everything you eat is pretty gross while it is being made - if you could
see
how most of your food is made, you would not eat it!



Eating or not eating meat is not the subject here. It is the concept
that shooting animals is some sort of sport. I am not a vegetarian. I am
not squeamish about going to the meat counter at the supermarket and
buying food.

Going to the woods with a rifle or bow and sitting in ambush for a dumb
animal is not sport, it is slaughter. Calling it a sport is an absurdity.

--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

I think they should be allowed to shoot each other without a permit. I also
would not require deer to get permits to shoot the hunters either. If you
kill
an animal just for the fun (sport) of it, then the same should be done to
you....period.


This doesn't even deserve a reply.

.......BUT....

Look man, I *DON'T* just go out and aimlessly blast any wild animal that I see.
If I want to augment my family's suppliment of food, and it happens to be
turkey season, I will go out and get a turkey for us to eat. You eat turkey at
Thansgiving, don't you?

I don't know of any hunter friends of mine that go out and blast animals for
the sport of it. There are rules and regulations, and a hunter can get heavily
fined and maybe jailed for poaching.

Butch Ammon

Butch Ammon wrote:

I don't exactly "shoot" deer, as in using a rifle - I don't own a rifle.
But
I
have a big compound bow with 65 lbs of pull to it, and merely launch an
arrow
at a deer. It's more sporty that way - you have to get REAL CLOSE to a
deer

too.

Yes, that does sound a little more sporting
than blasting a 75-pound Bambi from 200 yards away using a high-powered
rifle
and scope. :-)


Where's the "sport" part? Does Bambi shoot back?


*SIGH*

Look, a deer (or turkey, duck, heck even a pronghorn antelope) have powerful
senses far keener than man. They *know* you are out there and can detect you,
smell you, see you....

A deer rifle could "blast a deer" from 200 yards away - as you and Chuck Gould
said. But with that compound bow of mine, I only have 3 sight pins on it (10
yards, 20 yards, 30 yards). Do you know how CLOSE 30 yards actually is? How
to get a deer to walk within 30 yards is a major challenge, because of their
wariness. Now with turkeys, they are torturous creatures that frustrate even
the most seasoned of hunters. They see in full color like a human, and can see
you and your human outline from probably a 1/4 mile away!

Ducks and geese seem to know that "something doesn't look right here..." and
will flare off just outside of shotgun range. They too have senses and aerial
acrobatics to elude a spray of shotgun shot.

Anyway, let's talk about boating in this thread... I like duckhunting and
boating with friends of mine. They have big Polarcraft duck boats with the big
pop-up blinds on them. They are about 14' jon boats and have about a 25hp
outboard on them. Kinda cool looking...

Butch Ammon

Butch, I know you to be a very decent and honorable guy, and I'm really
not picking on you, but, rather, on the concept of hunting animals as
"sport."

I'm not even anti-shotgun, as you well know. I kill my quota of
defenseless skeet every year. In fact, I think sporting clays is the
best way of all to hunt, and it is indeed a "sport," as is paper target
or range shooting. The sport is the competition.

--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

"Bill Cole" wrote in message
news:uYm6b.373756$Ho3.55953@sccrnsc03...
Wally,
I doubt anyone would break someone leg with a pick em up truck. I have meet
a few ignorant individuals in my time, but no one who would break someone's
legs with a truck. It sounds like a fabrication or an urban legend to me.

Unfortunately, it is easier to encourage dissention and hatred than to solve
problems, so people of limited ability tend to thrive on dissention and
hatred.


Harry did breaks someone's legs with his truck. He did it purposely and bragged about
it here.

Try a google search if you don't believe me.

On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 13:49:10 GMT, "Bill Cole"
wrote:

e it is ok as long as you release the fish, in
reality a large percent of those released fish die.

Link?

bb

On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 15:36:37 GMT, "Jim" wrote:


"Bill Cole" wrote in message
news:uYm6b.373756$Ho3.55953@sccrnsc03...
Wally,
I doubt anyone would break someone leg with a pick em up truck. I have meet
a few ignorant individuals in my time, but no one who would break someone's
legs with a truck. It sounds like a fabrication or an urban legend to me.

Unfortunately, it is easier to encourage dissention and hatred than to solve
problems, so people of limited ability tend to thrive on dissention and
hatred.


Harry did breaks someone's legs with his truck. He did it purposely and bragged about
it here.

Try a google search if you don't believe me.

Harry may have *said* he broke someone's leg with a pickup truck. Did anyone
actually believe that? Anyone see a police report?

John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD

I agree with the comment that all of our food comes from somewhere. There's no
moral difference between killing the food personally or paying somebody else to
do it for you.

Will somebody please pass the A-1 steak sauce? :-)

Why do so few people know how to use a search engine? Quicker than you can
type the word "Link" you can find your own Links. For those who do not
understand how to use a search engine, attached is a link:
http://www.ellsworthamerican.com/arc..._09-30-99.html

http://seagrant.gso.uri.edu/factshee...elease_fs.html

http://www.ks-mo-hunt.org/catch_release_fishing.htm

http://adirondackexplorer.org/june2001debatable.html


ps - For a small fee, I will teach anyone how to find there own links.
Sort of teaching a man how to fish.


"bb" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 13:49:10 GMT, "Bill Cole"
wrote:

e it is ok as long as you release the fish, in
reality a large percent of those released fish die.

Link?

bb