If you thought...
 

On Jan 12, 2:55*pm, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 3:33 PM, Tim wrote:









On Jan 12, 2:16 pm, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 2:34 PM, Tim wrote:

On Jan 12, 8:49 am, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 9:50 AM, Salmonbait wrote:

On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 23:26:58 -0800 (PST), Tim wrote:

On Jan 12, 12:31 am, thumper wrote:
On 1/11/2013 12:19 PM, Salmonbait wrote:

If your sister was more than a dunce, she would not have allowed your niece to go with a church
group. What the hell did she expect?

Exactly, what kind of idiot would trust a church group with a child? ;-)

Me. *As a kid, I attended lots of church functions, camps and
gatherings. had a lot of fun too.

?;^ )

And I'll bet your uncle didn't talk about your mom letting you go and get 'brainwashed'.

Hell, church picnics and potlucks were, and are, the best eatin' around!

Really?

Several of our local churches sell "churchlady" cooked food a few times
a year to raise funds. Perfectly legit. Last summer, we bought two
"barbecue" meals from one of those churches, barbecued chicken and
barbecued ribs. The chicken was overdone, dry, and pretty much
tasteless, the sauce on the ribs tasted like melted sugar, and the
coleslaw and potato salad came from Safeway.

Hardly "the best eatin' around," unless you like bad cooking.

Harry, by buying those meals, it sounds to me like you're supporting
churches who support missionaries Who want to convert others by
cramming religion down their throats.

Not good!!

I don't believe the church in question has anything to do with
missionaries. You seem to think I object to religion. I don't. My
objection is to religion that tries to impose its beliefs on those who
either believe differently or don't believe at all. I have no objection
to the voluntary support of neighborhood religious organizations,
except, in this case, I don't think we'll be supporting their barbecues
again. I might try a cake/pie/cookie sale.

I know of no 'church' that doesn't support missionaries, Harry.

Ahh, but you don't know of *every* church, do you?

do you?

If you thought...
 

On 1/12/13 4:22 PM, Tim wrote:
On Jan 12, 2:54 pm, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 3:32 PM, Tim wrote:









On Jan 12, 2:13 pm, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 2:28 PM, Tim wrote:

On Jan 12, 7:54 am, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 8:44 AM, Tim wrote:

On Jan 12, 6:23 am, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 2:21 AM, Tim wrote:

On Jan 11, 2:27 pm, ESAD wrote:
I had in-laws who tried to pull that crap on me at a family gathering in
Florida. They were trying to hustle funds for a trip their church was
planning to take to somewhere in Central America to proselytize. Or
maybe it was South America. One or the other. Basically, they were
heading into some backwoods areas in attempts to convert indigenous
Catholics into Southern Baptists, and, as bait, they were bringing along
church members who were nurses, doctors, et cetera.

"Indigenous Catholics?" And what were the indigenous before they were
Catholics?

"and, as bait, they were bringing along church members who were
nurses, doctors, et cetera."

is it wrong to help people improve their health and their lives?

" What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have
faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother
or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to
them, Go in peace; keep warm and well fed, but does nothing about
their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by
itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."

James 2:14-17

What were the indigenous peoples before they were catholics? They had
their own culture and their own religions *before* the Europeans came
along and destroyed both.

Interesting quote you provided...sort of a justification for
proselytizing and destroying a people and a culture. It's damned wrong
to go to some backwater area and offer help to people if only they will
give up their beliefs and culture to adopt yours.

Harry I have no idea where you get the notion of " if only they will
give up their beliefs and culture to adopt yours."

That isn't written in the scripture, it isn't even applied. I have no
idea why you feel you need to conjure up these things.

Really? What do evangelical missionaries do? Answer: they preach
Christianity to others with the object of conversion, and many times in
history those conversions were accomplished with the threat of death.

Yeah, a 'history of death'' by ungodly people under the guise of doing
the work of Christ. But if you feel to believe so, then that is your
right .

But you were making a point that there was some kind of a
'bargaining' that was to happen. like medical, shelter, clothing,
food, ...firewood. You give the impression that missionaries use
Christianity as some kind of a tool. You either convert, or you don't
get the goods. There is non of that.

Again, if you feel to believe so, then that is your right .

You either listen to the message or you get...nothing. That's the case
with some missionaries in Central and South America.

But you implied that it is ALL! Can you tell me of modern
missionaries that do this? Or is this simply a misconception you are
promoting?

No, I didn't imply all.

"Christians force their beliefs on others in many ways other than
attempts at door to door salesmanship. These include but are not
limited to:..."

I notice you didn't say "some" or "a few"


I also didn't say "All christians..."

If you thought...
 

On 1/12/13 4:23 PM, Tim wrote:
On Jan 12, 2:55 pm, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 3:33 PM, Tim wrote:









On Jan 12, 2:16 pm, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 2:34 PM, Tim wrote:

On Jan 12, 8:49 am, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 9:50 AM, Salmonbait wrote:

On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 23:26:58 -0800 (PST), Tim wrote:

On Jan 12, 12:31 am, thumper wrote:
On 1/11/2013 12:19 PM, Salmonbait wrote:

If your sister was more than a dunce, she would not have allowed your niece to go with a church
group. What the hell did she expect?

Exactly, what kind of idiot would trust a church group with a child? ;-)

Me. As a kid, I attended lots of church functions, camps and
gatherings. had a lot of fun too.

?;^ )

And I'll bet your uncle didn't talk about your mom letting you go and get 'brainwashed'.

Hell, church picnics and potlucks were, and are, the best eatin' around!

Really?

Several of our local churches sell "churchlady" cooked food a few times
a year to raise funds. Perfectly legit. Last summer, we bought two
"barbecue" meals from one of those churches, barbecued chicken and
barbecued ribs. The chicken was overdone, dry, and pretty much
tasteless, the sauce on the ribs tasted like melted sugar, and the
coleslaw and potato salad came from Safeway.

Hardly "the best eatin' around," unless you like bad cooking.

Harry, by buying those meals, it sounds to me like you're supporting
churches who support missionaries Who want to convert others by
cramming religion down their throats.

Not good!!

I don't believe the church in question has anything to do with
missionaries. You seem to think I object to religion. I don't. My
objection is to religion that tries to impose its beliefs on those who
either believe differently or don't believe at all. I have no objection
to the voluntary support of neighborhood religious organizations,
except, in this case, I don't think we'll be supporting their barbecues
again. I might try a cake/pie/cookie sale.

I know of no 'church' that doesn't support missionaries, Harry.

Ahh, but you don't know of *every* church, do you?

do you?


No, thankfully.

If you thought...
 

On 1/12/2013 3:54 PM, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 3:32 PM, Tim wrote:
On Jan 12, 2:13 pm, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 2:28 PM, Tim wrote:







On Jan 12, 7:54 am, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 8:44 AM, Tim wrote:

On Jan 12, 6:23 am, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 2:21 AM, Tim wrote:

On Jan 11, 2:27 pm, ESAD wrote:
I had in-laws who tried to pull that crap on me at a family
gathering in
Florida. They were trying to hustle funds for a trip their
church was
planning to take to somewhere in Central America to
proselytize. Or
maybe it was South America. One or the other. Basically, they were
heading into some backwoods areas in attempts to convert
indigenous
Catholics into Southern Baptists, and, as bait, they were
bringing along
church members who were nurses, doctors, et cetera.

"Indigenous Catholics?" And what were the indigenous before
they were
Catholics?

"and, as bait, they were bringing along church members who were
nurses, doctors, et cetera."

is it wrong to help people improve their health and their lives?

" What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to
have
faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a
brother
or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you
says to
them, Go in peace; keep warm and well fed, but does nothing about
their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by
itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."

James 2:14-17

What were the indigenous peoples before they were catholics? They
had
their own culture and their own religions *before* the Europeans
came
along and destroyed both.

Interesting quote you provided...sort of a justification for
proselytizing and destroying a people and a culture. It's damned
wrong
to go to some backwater area and offer help to people if only
they will
give up their beliefs and culture to adopt yours.

Harry I have no idea where you get the notion of " if only they will
give up their beliefs and culture to adopt yours."

That isn't written in the scripture, it isn't even applied. I
have no
idea why you feel you need to conjure up these things.

Really? What do evangelical missionaries do? Answer: they preach
Christianity to others with the object of conversion, and many
times in
history those conversions were accomplished with the threat of death.

Yeah, a 'history of death'' by ungodly people under the guise of doing
the work of Christ. But if you feel to believe so, then that is your
right .

But you were making a point that there was some kind of a
'bargaining' that was to happen. like medical, shelter, clothing,
food, ...firewood. You give the impression that missionaries use
Christianity as some kind of a tool. You either convert, or you don't
get the goods. There is non of that.

Again, if you feel to believe so, then that is your right .

You either listen to the message or you get...nothing. That's the case
with some missionaries in Central and South America.

But you implied that it is ALL! Can you tell me of modern
missionaries that do this? Or is this simply a misconception you are
promoting?


No, I didn't imply all. I have read of missionaries in places like India
withholding services/goods for those who would not convert, and I have
read of other such cases.

As you may suspect, I am not in favor of proselytizing of any kind. I
think the practice is disgusting. If it were up to me, I would expel any
missionaries in foreign countries who engage in proselytizing.

I do know some nuns personally who pay for and run an orphanage in China
where the only concern is taking care of the kids and finding decent
homes for them. The nuns do not teach religion and do not place the kids
in only catholic homes. I support such efforts, as I support religious
people going to disaster areas and helping out, so long as they aren't
shoveling their religion.


When's the last time you did charitable work and didn't expect something
in return? Never is my guess.

If you thought...
 

On Jan 12, 2:54*pm, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 3:32 PM, Tim wrote:









On Jan 12, 2:13 pm, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 2:28 PM, Tim wrote:

On Jan 12, 7:54 am, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 8:44 AM, Tim wrote:

On Jan 12, 6:23 am, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 2:21 AM, Tim wrote:

On Jan 11, 2:27 pm, ESAD wrote:
I had in-laws who tried to pull that crap on me at a family gathering in
Florida. They were trying to hustle funds for a trip their church was
planning to take to somewhere in Central America to proselytize. Or
maybe it was South America. One or the other. Basically, they were
heading into some backwoods areas in attempts to convert indigenous
Catholics into Southern Baptists, and, as bait, they were bringing along
church members who were nurses, doctors, et cetera.

"Indigenous Catholics?" *And what were the indigenous before they were
Catholics?

"and, as bait, they were bringing along *church members who were
nurses, doctors, et cetera."

is it wrong to help people improve their health and their lives?

" What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have
faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? *Suppose a brother
or a sister is without clothes and daily food. *If one of you says to
them, Go in peace; keep warm and well fed, but does nothing about
their physical needs, what good is it? *In the same way, faith by
itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."

James 2:14-17

What were the indigenous peoples before they were catholics? They had
their own culture and their own religions *before* the Europeans came
along and destroyed both.

Interesting quote you provided...sort of a justification for
proselytizing and destroying a people and a culture. It's damned wrong
to go to some backwater area and offer help to people if only they will
give up their beliefs and culture to adopt yours.

Harry I have no idea where you get the notion of " if only they will
* * give up their beliefs and culture to adopt yours."

That isn't written in the scripture, it isn't even applied. *I have no
idea why you feel you need to conjure up these things.

Really? What do evangelical missionaries do? Answer: they preach
Christianity to others with the object of conversion, and many times in
history those conversions were accomplished with the threat of death..

Yeah, a 'history of death'' by ungodly people under the guise of doing
the work of Christ. * But if you feel to believe so, then that is your
right .

* *But you were making a point that there was some kind of a
'bargaining' that was to happen. like medical, shelter, clothing,
food, ...firewood. You give the impression that missionaries use
Christianity as some kind of a tool. You either convert, or you don't
get the goods. There is non of that.

Again, if you feel to believe so, then that is your right .

You either listen to the message or you get...nothing. That's the case
with some missionaries in Central and South America.

But you implied that it is ALL! * * Can you tell me of modern
missionaries that do this? Or is this simply a misconception you are
promoting?

No, I didn't imply all. I have read of missionaries in places like India
withholding services/goods for those who would not convert, and I have
read of other such cases.

"As you may suspect, I am not in favor of proselytizing of any kind. I
think the practice is disgusting. If it were up to me, I would expel any
missionaries in foreign countries who engage in proselytizing...."

And by doing so, you would also be expelling hundreds if not thousands
of health care workers, teachers,dentists, hygienists, dieticians,
carpenters, metallurgists and other craftsmen, farmers, scientists,
engineers, People who can show others how to live healthier...

You'd also be taking a lot of monies out of the local economy that was
provided by those you kicked out of the country.

Yes, Harry, By expelling those pesky foreign bible thumpers, you'd
help keep your third world country "third"

If you thought...
 

On 1/12/13 7:05 PM, Tim wrote:
On Jan 12, 2:54 pm, ESAD wrote:

No, I didn't imply all. I have read of missionaries in places like India
withholding services/goods for those who would not convert, and I have
read of other such cases.

"As you may suspect, I am not in favor of proselytizing of any kind. I
think the practice is disgusting. If it were up to me, I would expel any
missionaries in foreign countries who engage in proselytizing...."

And by doing so, you would also be expelling hundreds if not thousands
of health care workers, teachers,dentists, hygienists, dieticians,
carpenters, metallurgists and other craftsmen, farmers, scientists,
engineers, People who can show others how to live healthier...

You'd also be taking a lot of monies out of the local economy that was
provided by those you kicked out of the country.

Yes, Harry, By expelling those pesky foreign bible thumpers, you'd
help keep your third world country "third"



No need to expel them; all they need to do is get out of the religious
conversion business, eh?

I have a long-time client, an NGO, that helps villages all over the
world, in places like Guatemala, Egypt, Salvador, Bosnia, and India,
train indigenous peoples how to build housing, low rise commercial
buildings, how to build and maintain potable water supplies and
delivery, et cetera, and they manage to do it without peddling religion
or anything else.

If the hundreds or thousands of people you mentioned by occupation are
religious workers, they can do what they do without proselytizing, and
do it for the sake of their saviour.

If you thought...
 

On Jan 12, 6:33*pm, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 7:05 PM, Tim wrote:







On Jan 12, 2:54 pm, ESAD wrote:

No, I didn't imply all. I have read of missionaries in places like India
withholding services/goods for those who would not convert, and I have
read of other such cases.

"As you may suspect, I am not in favor of proselytizing of any kind. I
think the practice is disgusting. If it were up to me, I would expel any
missionaries in foreign countries who engage in proselytizing...."

And by doing so, you would also be expelling hundreds if not thousands
of health care workers, teachers,dentists, hygienists, dieticians,
carpenters, metallurgists and other craftsmen, farmers, scientists,
engineers, * People who can show others how to live healthier...

You'd also be taking a lot of monies out of the local economy that was
provided by those you kicked out of the country.

Yes, Harry, By expelling those pesky foreign bible thumpers, you'd
help keep your third world country "third"

No need to expel them; all they need to do is get out of the religious
conversion business, eh?

I have a long-time client, an NGO, that helps villages all over the
world, in places like Guatemala, Egypt, Salvador, Bosnia, and India,
train indigenous peoples how to build housing, low rise commercial
buildings, how to build and maintain potable water supplies and
delivery, et cetera, and they manage to do it without peddling religion
or anything else.

If the hundreds or thousands of people you mentioned by occupation are
religious workers, they can do what they do without proselytizing, and
do it for the sake of their saviour.

If that be the case then why not turn the work over to the inefficient
Peace Corps?

If you thought...
 

On 1/12/13 7:36 PM, Tim wrote:
On Jan 12, 6:33 pm, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 7:05 PM, Tim wrote:







On Jan 12, 2:54 pm, ESAD wrote:

No, I didn't imply all. I have read of missionaries in places like India
withholding services/goods for those who would not convert, and I have
read of other such cases.

"As you may suspect, I am not in favor of proselytizing of any kind. I
think the practice is disgusting. If it were up to me, I would expel any
missionaries in foreign countries who engage in proselytizing...."

And by doing so, you would also be expelling hundreds if not thousands
of health care workers, teachers,dentists, hygienists, dieticians,
carpenters, metallurgists and other craftsmen, farmers, scientists,
engineers, People who can show others how to live healthier...

You'd also be taking a lot of monies out of the local economy that was
provided by those you kicked out of the country.

Yes, Harry, By expelling those pesky foreign bible thumpers, you'd
help keep your third world country "third"

No need to expel them; all they need to do is get out of the religious
conversion business, eh?

I have a long-time client, an NGO, that helps villages all over the
world, in places like Guatemala, Egypt, Salvador, Bosnia, and India,
train indigenous peoples how to build housing, low rise commercial
buildings, how to build and maintain potable water supplies and
delivery, et cetera, and they manage to do it without peddling religion
or anything else.

If the hundreds or thousands of people you mentioned by occupation are
religious workers, they can do what they do without proselytizing, and
do it for the sake of their saviour.

If that be the case then why not turn the work over to the inefficient
Peace Corps?


Inefficient? It's a small force, under 10,000, and most volunteers work
as school teachers or in medical fields to help people not get HIV/AIDs.
Like any group, it has its problems, but it does a lot of good work
around the world without pushing religious superstition.

If you thought...
 

On 1/12/2013 7:47 PM, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 7:36 PM, Tim wrote:
On Jan 12, 6:33 pm, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 7:05 PM, Tim wrote:







On Jan 12, 2:54 pm, ESAD wrote:

No, I didn't imply all. I have read of missionaries in places like
India
withholding services/goods for those who would not convert, and I have
read of other such cases.

"As you may suspect, I am not in favor of proselytizing of any kind. I
think the practice is disgusting. If it were up to me, I would
expel any
missionaries in foreign countries who engage in proselytizing...."

And by doing so, you would also be expelling hundreds if not thousands
of health care workers, teachers,dentists, hygienists, dieticians,
carpenters, metallurgists and other craftsmen, farmers, scientists,
engineers, People who can show others how to live healthier...

You'd also be taking a lot of monies out of the local economy that was
provided by those you kicked out of the country.

Yes, Harry, By expelling those pesky foreign bible thumpers, you'd
help keep your third world country "third"

No need to expel them; all they need to do is get out of the religious
conversion business, eh?

I have a long-time client, an NGO, that helps villages all over the
world, in places like Guatemala, Egypt, Salvador, Bosnia, and India,
train indigenous peoples how to build housing, low rise commercial
buildings, how to build and maintain potable water supplies and
delivery, et cetera, and they manage to do it without peddling religion
or anything else.

If the hundreds or thousands of people you mentioned by occupation are
religious workers, they can do what they do without proselytizing, and
do it for the sake of their saviour.

If that be the case then why not turn the work over to the inefficient
Peace Corps?


Inefficient? It's a small force, under 10,000, and most volunteers work
as school teachers or in medical fields to help people not get HIV/AIDs.
Like any group, it has its problems, but it does a lot of good work
around the world without pushing religious superstition.



I don't think promoting religion is as terrible as lying and refusing to
pay taxes.

If you thought...
 

On 1/12/2013 4:22 PM, Tim wrote:
On Jan 12, 2:54 pm, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 3:32 PM, Tim wrote:









On Jan 12, 2:13 pm, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 2:28 PM, Tim wrote:

On Jan 12, 7:54 am, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 8:44 AM, Tim wrote:

On Jan 12, 6:23 am, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 2:21 AM, Tim wrote:

On Jan 11, 2:27 pm, ESAD wrote:
I had in-laws who tried to pull that crap on me at a family gathering in
Florida. They were trying to hustle funds for a trip their church was
planning to take to somewhere in Central America to proselytize. Or
maybe it was South America. One or the other. Basically, they were
heading into some backwoods areas in attempts to convert indigenous
Catholics into Southern Baptists, and, as bait, they were bringing along
church members who were nurses, doctors, et cetera.

"Indigenous Catholics?" And what were the indigenous before they were
Catholics?

"and, as bait, they were bringing along church members who were
nurses, doctors, et cetera."

is it wrong to help people improve their health and their lives?

" What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have
faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother
or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to
them, Go in peace; keep warm and well fed, but does nothing about
their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by
itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."

James 2:14-17

What were the indigenous peoples before they were catholics? They had
their own culture and their own religions *before* the Europeans came
along and destroyed both.

Interesting quote you provided...sort of a justification for
proselytizing and destroying a people and a culture. It's damned wrong
to go to some backwater area and offer help to people if only they will
give up their beliefs and culture to adopt yours.

Harry I have no idea where you get the notion of " if only they will
give up their beliefs and culture to adopt yours."

That isn't written in the scripture, it isn't even applied. I have no
idea why you feel you need to conjure up these things.

Really? What do evangelical missionaries do? Answer: they preach
Christianity to others with the object of conversion, and many times in
history those conversions were accomplished with the threat of death.

Yeah, a 'history of death'' by ungodly people under the guise of doing
the work of Christ. But if you feel to believe so, then that is your
right .

But you were making a point that there was some kind of a
'bargaining' that was to happen. like medical, shelter, clothing,
food, ...firewood. You give the impression that missionaries use
Christianity as some kind of a tool. You either convert, or you don't
get the goods. There is non of that.

Again, if you feel to believe so, then that is your right .

You either listen to the message or you get...nothing. That's the case
with some missionaries in Central and South America.

But you implied that it is ALL! Can you tell me of modern
missionaries that do this? Or is this simply a misconception you are
promoting?

No, I didn't imply all.

"Christians force their beliefs on others in many ways other than
attempts at door to door salesmanship. These include but are not
limited to:..."

I notice you didn't say "some" or "a few"

I noticed he didn't back up his narrative at all... he can't show any
instance of "religion being forced down their throats".