If you thought...
 

On 1/12/2013 3:17 PM, thumper wrote:
On 1/12/2013 11:20 AM, JustWait wrote:
On 1/12/2013 2:08 PM, thumper wrote:
On 1/12/2013 7:02 AM, Salmonbait wrote:

I should have said, "What did your sister expect when she allowed her
daughter to go on a weekend
trip with a Baptist church group - no religion?"

There's that binary thinking again. There's a difference between
presenting information in a comfortable environment and more intense
coercion involving threats. Baptists tend toward the latter from my
limited experience.


So you are speculating that this "brainwashing" actually happened,
pretty much because it fits in with your agenda... I get it..

Read this slowly.

I've experienced threatening coercion specifically from a Baptist youth
leader in rural Michigan. Accept Jesus as your personal savior or burn
in Hell for eternity. Do it now.

It does happen. It's not a situation I would place a young child in
without parental supervision.


So, this was what? One incident? Close to what, 60 years ago??? That
really doesn't come any where close to brainwashing or shoving down the
throat... So again, why are we even having this narrative about
something that doesn't happen...

If you thought...
 

On 1/12/2013 3:32 PM, Tim wrote:
On Jan 12, 2:13 pm, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 2:28 PM, Tim wrote:







On Jan 12, 7:54 am, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 8:44 AM, Tim wrote:

On Jan 12, 6:23 am, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 2:21 AM, Tim wrote:

On Jan 11, 2:27 pm, ESAD wrote:
I had in-laws who tried to pull that crap on me at a family gathering in
Florida. They were trying to hustle funds for a trip their church was
planning to take to somewhere in Central America to proselytize. Or
maybe it was South America. One or the other. Basically, they were
heading into some backwoods areas in attempts to convert indigenous
Catholics into Southern Baptists, and, as bait, they were bringing along
church members who were nurses, doctors, et cetera.

"Indigenous Catholics?" And what were the indigenous before they were
Catholics?

"and, as bait, they were bringing along church members who were
nurses, doctors, et cetera."

is it wrong to help people improve their health and their lives?

" What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have
faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother
or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to
them, Go in peace; keep warm and well fed, but does nothing about
their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by
itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."

James 2:14-17

What were the indigenous peoples before they were catholics? They had
their own culture and their own religions *before* the Europeans came
along and destroyed both.

Interesting quote you provided...sort of a justification for
proselytizing and destroying a people and a culture. It's damned wrong
to go to some backwater area and offer help to people if only they will
give up their beliefs and culture to adopt yours.

Harry I have no idea where you get the notion of " if only they will
give up their beliefs and culture to adopt yours."

That isn't written in the scripture, it isn't even applied. I have no
idea why you feel you need to conjure up these things.

Really? What do evangelical missionaries do? Answer: they preach
Christianity to others with the object of conversion, and many times in
history those conversions were accomplished with the threat of death.

Yeah, a 'history of death'' by ungodly people under the guise of doing
the work of Christ. But if you feel to believe so, then that is your
right .

But you were making a point that there was some kind of a
'bargaining' that was to happen. like medical, shelter, clothing,
food, ...firewood. You give the impression that missionaries use
Christianity as some kind of a tool. You either convert, or you don't
get the goods. There is non of that.

Again, if you feel to believe so, then that is your right .

You either listen to the message or you get...nothing. That's the case
with some missionaries in Central and South America.

But you implied that it is ALL! Can you tell me of modern
missionaries that do this? Or is this simply a misconception you are
promoting?


Ding, ding, ding... we have a winner..:)

If you thought...
 

In article , lid says...

On 1/12/2013 11:20 AM, JustWait wrote:
On 1/12/2013 2:08 PM, thumper wrote:
On 1/12/2013 7:02 AM, Salmonbait wrote:

I should have said, "What did your sister expect when she allowed her
daughter to go on a weekend
trip with a Baptist church group - no religion?"

There's that binary thinking again. There's a difference between
presenting information in a comfortable environment and more intense
coercion involving threats. Baptists tend toward the latter from my
limited experience.


So you are speculating that this "brainwashing" actually happened,
pretty much because it fits in with your agenda... I get it..

Read this slowly.

I've experienced threatening coercion specifically from a Baptist youth
leader in rural Michigan. Accept Jesus as your personal savior or burn
in Hell for eternity. Do it now.

It does happen. It's not a situation I would place a young child in
without parental supervision.

You could probably encounter that from any religious fanatic.
I went to Baptist church services, "bible school" sessions, and summer
camps for a couple years, maybe age 9-11.
Never heard burning in hell mentioned. Sermons and bible school just
concentrated on interpreting how the meaning of passages applied in
conducting your daily life in a "Christian" manner.
Don't think I even heard the word "saved" in that church.
Don't remember ANY religion taught in the summer camp, just fun.
It was all positive, no negative.
Though I'm not religious, I still consider it was good "shaping" of my
morality.
With Baptists, I think the tone is almost entirely set by the Pastor.
Maybe I got lucky.

If you thought...
 

On 1/12/2013 3:33 PM, Tim wrote:
On Jan 12, 2:16 pm, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 2:34 PM, Tim wrote:









On Jan 12, 8:49 am, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 9:50 AM, Salmonbait wrote:

On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 23:26:58 -0800 (PST), Tim wrote:

On Jan 12, 12:31 am, thumper wrote:
On 1/11/2013 12:19 PM, Salmonbait wrote:

If your sister was more than a dunce, she would not have allowed your niece to go with a church
group. What the hell did she expect?

Exactly, what kind of idiot would trust a church group with a child? ;-)

Me. As a kid, I attended lots of church functions, camps and
gatherings. had a lot of fun too.

?;^ )

And I'll bet your uncle didn't talk about your mom letting you go and get 'brainwashed'.

Hell, church picnics and potlucks were, and are, the best eatin' around!

Really?

Several of our local churches sell "churchlady" cooked food a few times
a year to raise funds. Perfectly legit. Last summer, we bought two
"barbecue" meals from one of those churches, barbecued chicken and
barbecued ribs. The chicken was overdone, dry, and pretty much
tasteless, the sauce on the ribs tasted like melted sugar, and the
coleslaw and potato salad came from Safeway.

Hardly "the best eatin' around," unless you like bad cooking.

Harry, by buying those meals, it sounds to me like you're supporting
churches who support missionaries Who want to convert others by
cramming religion down their throats.

Not good!!

I don't believe the church in question has anything to do with
missionaries. You seem to think I object to religion. I don't. My
objection is to religion that tries to impose its beliefs on those who
either believe differently or don't believe at all. I have no objection
to the voluntary support of neighborhood religious organizations,
except, in this case, I don't think we'll be supporting their barbecues
again. I might try a cake/pie/cookie sale.

I know of no 'church' that doesn't support missionaries, Harry.


Right on target Tim.

If you thought...
 

On 1/12/13 3:32 PM, Tim wrote:
On Jan 12, 2:13 pm, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 2:28 PM, Tim wrote:







On Jan 12, 7:54 am, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 8:44 AM, Tim wrote:

On Jan 12, 6:23 am, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 2:21 AM, Tim wrote:

On Jan 11, 2:27 pm, ESAD wrote:
I had in-laws who tried to pull that crap on me at a family gathering in
Florida. They were trying to hustle funds for a trip their church was
planning to take to somewhere in Central America to proselytize. Or
maybe it was South America. One or the other. Basically, they were
heading into some backwoods areas in attempts to convert indigenous
Catholics into Southern Baptists, and, as bait, they were bringing along
church members who were nurses, doctors, et cetera.

"Indigenous Catholics?" And what were the indigenous before they were
Catholics?

"and, as bait, they were bringing along church members who were
nurses, doctors, et cetera."

is it wrong to help people improve their health and their lives?

" What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have
faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother
or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to
them, Go in peace; keep warm and well fed, but does nothing about
their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by
itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."

James 2:14-17

What were the indigenous peoples before they were catholics? They had
their own culture and their own religions *before* the Europeans came
along and destroyed both.

Interesting quote you provided...sort of a justification for
proselytizing and destroying a people and a culture. It's damned wrong
to go to some backwater area and offer help to people if only they will
give up their beliefs and culture to adopt yours.

Harry I have no idea where you get the notion of " if only they will
give up their beliefs and culture to adopt yours."

That isn't written in the scripture, it isn't even applied. I have no
idea why you feel you need to conjure up these things.

Really? What do evangelical missionaries do? Answer: they preach
Christianity to others with the object of conversion, and many times in
history those conversions were accomplished with the threat of death.

Yeah, a 'history of death'' by ungodly people under the guise of doing
the work of Christ. But if you feel to believe so, then that is your
right .

But you were making a point that there was some kind of a
'bargaining' that was to happen. like medical, shelter, clothing,
food, ...firewood. You give the impression that missionaries use
Christianity as some kind of a tool. You either convert, or you don't
get the goods. There is non of that.

Again, if you feel to believe so, then that is your right .

You either listen to the message or you get...nothing. That's the case
with some missionaries in Central and South America.

But you implied that it is ALL! Can you tell me of modern
missionaries that do this? Or is this simply a misconception you are
promoting?


No, I didn't imply all. I have read of missionaries in places like India
withholding services/goods for those who would not convert, and I have
read of other such cases.

As you may suspect, I am not in favor of proselytizing of any kind. I
think the practice is disgusting. If it were up to me, I would expel any
missionaries in foreign countries who engage in proselytizing.

I do know some nuns personally who pay for and run an orphanage in China
where the only concern is taking care of the kids and finding decent
homes for them. The nuns do not teach religion and do not place the kids
in only catholic homes. I support such efforts, as I support religious
people going to disaster areas and helping out, so long as they aren't
shoveling their religion.

If you thought...
 

On 1/12/13 3:33 PM, Tim wrote:
On Jan 12, 2:16 pm, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 2:34 PM, Tim wrote:









On Jan 12, 8:49 am, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 9:50 AM, Salmonbait wrote:

On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 23:26:58 -0800 (PST), Tim wrote:

On Jan 12, 12:31 am, thumper wrote:
On 1/11/2013 12:19 PM, Salmonbait wrote:

If your sister was more than a dunce, she would not have allowed your niece to go with a church
group. What the hell did she expect?

Exactly, what kind of idiot would trust a church group with a child? ;-)

Me. As a kid, I attended lots of church functions, camps and
gatherings. had a lot of fun too.

?;^ )

And I'll bet your uncle didn't talk about your mom letting you go and get 'brainwashed'.

Hell, church picnics and potlucks were, and are, the best eatin' around!

Really?

Several of our local churches sell "churchlady" cooked food a few times
a year to raise funds. Perfectly legit. Last summer, we bought two
"barbecue" meals from one of those churches, barbecued chicken and
barbecued ribs. The chicken was overdone, dry, and pretty much
tasteless, the sauce on the ribs tasted like melted sugar, and the
coleslaw and potato salad came from Safeway.

Hardly "the best eatin' around," unless you like bad cooking.

Harry, by buying those meals, it sounds to me like you're supporting
churches who support missionaries Who want to convert others by
cramming religion down their throats.

Not good!!

I don't believe the church in question has anything to do with
missionaries. You seem to think I object to religion. I don't. My
objection is to religion that tries to impose its beliefs on those who
either believe differently or don't believe at all. I have no objection
to the voluntary support of neighborhood religious organizations,
except, in this case, I don't think we'll be supporting their barbecues
again. I might try a cake/pie/cookie sale.

I know of no 'church' that doesn't support missionaries, Harry.


Ahh, but you don't know of *every* church, do you?

If you thought...
 

On 1/12/13 3:40 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 1/12/2013 3:17 PM, thumper wrote:
On 1/12/2013 11:20 AM, JustWait wrote:
On 1/12/2013 2:08 PM, thumper wrote:
On 1/12/2013 7:02 AM, Salmonbait wrote:

I should have said, "What did your sister expect when she allowed her
daughter to go on a weekend
trip with a Baptist church group - no religion?"

There's that binary thinking again. There's a difference between
presenting information in a comfortable environment and more intense
coercion involving threats. Baptists tend toward the latter from my
limited experience.


So you are speculating that this "brainwashing" actually happened,
pretty much because it fits in with your agenda... I get it..

Read this slowly.

I've experienced threatening coercion specifically from a Baptist youth
leader in rural Michigan. Accept Jesus as your personal savior or burn
in Hell for eternity. Do it now.

It does happen. It's not a situation I would place a young child in
without parental supervision.


So, this was what? One incident? Close to what, 60 years ago??? That
really doesn't come any where close to brainwashing or shoving down the
throat... So again, why are we even having this narrative about
something that doesn't happen...

How would you know whether it happens or not? You're an ignorant little
fool.

If you thought...
 

In article ,
says...


You either listen to the message or you get...nothing. That's the case
with some missionaries in Central and South America.

So what? You can listen without hearing. It's a choice, not coerced.
Has to be sold to the listener. Their choice.
Same with homeless missions here.
You think they should just air drop in supplies?
Nothing wrong with religion as long as it doesn't write laws.
People should have a vote on law. And here they do.

If you thought...
 

On Jan 12, 2:52*pm, Boating All Out wrote:
In article , says...











On 1/12/2013 11:20 AM, JustWait wrote:
On 1/12/2013 2:08 PM, thumper wrote:
On 1/12/2013 7:02 AM, Salmonbait wrote:

I should have said, "What did your sister expect when she allowed her
daughter to go on a weekend
trip with a Baptist church group - no religion?"

There's that binary thinking again. *There's a difference between
presenting information in a comfortable environment and more intense
coercion involving threats. *Baptists tend toward the latter from my
limited experience.

So you are speculating that this "brainwashing" actually happened,
pretty much because it fits in with your agenda... I get it..

Read this slowly.

I've experienced threatening coercion specifically from a Baptist youth
leader in rural Michigan. *Accept Jesus as your personal savior or burn
in Hell for eternity. *Do it now.

It does happen. *It's not a situation I would place a young child in
without parental supervision.

You could probably encounter that from any religious fanatic.
I went to Baptist church services, "bible school" sessions, and summer
camps for a couple years, maybe age 9-11.
Never heard burning in hell mentioned. *Sermons and bible school just
concentrated on interpreting how the meaning of passages applied in
conducting your daily life in a "Christian" manner.
Don't think I even heard the word "saved" in that church.
Don't remember ANY religion taught in the summer camp, just fun.
It was all positive, no negative.
Though I'm not religious, I still consider it was good "shaping" of my
morality.
With Baptists, I think the tone is almost entirely set by the Pastor.
Maybe I got lucky.

No, you didn't just "get lucky." From what I've seen and experienced
is the usual norm.

If you thought...
 

On Jan 12, 2:54*pm, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 3:32 PM, Tim wrote:









On Jan 12, 2:13 pm, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 2:28 PM, Tim wrote:

On Jan 12, 7:54 am, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 8:44 AM, Tim wrote:

On Jan 12, 6:23 am, ESAD wrote:
On 1/12/13 2:21 AM, Tim wrote:

On Jan 11, 2:27 pm, ESAD wrote:
I had in-laws who tried to pull that crap on me at a family gathering in
Florida. They were trying to hustle funds for a trip their church was
planning to take to somewhere in Central America to proselytize. Or
maybe it was South America. One or the other. Basically, they were
heading into some backwoods areas in attempts to convert indigenous
Catholics into Southern Baptists, and, as bait, they were bringing along
church members who were nurses, doctors, et cetera.

"Indigenous Catholics?" *And what were the indigenous before they were
Catholics?

"and, as bait, they were bringing along *church members who were
nurses, doctors, et cetera."

is it wrong to help people improve their health and their lives?

" What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have
faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? *Suppose a brother
or a sister is without clothes and daily food. *If one of you says to
them, Go in peace; keep warm and well fed, but does nothing about
their physical needs, what good is it? *In the same way, faith by
itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."

James 2:14-17

What were the indigenous peoples before they were catholics? They had
their own culture and their own religions *before* the Europeans came
along and destroyed both.

Interesting quote you provided...sort of a justification for
proselytizing and destroying a people and a culture. It's damned wrong
to go to some backwater area and offer help to people if only they will
give up their beliefs and culture to adopt yours.

Harry I have no idea where you get the notion of " if only they will
* * give up their beliefs and culture to adopt yours."

That isn't written in the scripture, it isn't even applied. *I have no
idea why you feel you need to conjure up these things.

Really? What do evangelical missionaries do? Answer: they preach
Christianity to others with the object of conversion, and many times in
history those conversions were accomplished with the threat of death..

Yeah, a 'history of death'' by ungodly people under the guise of doing
the work of Christ. * But if you feel to believe so, then that is your
right .

* *But you were making a point that there was some kind of a
'bargaining' that was to happen. like medical, shelter, clothing,
food, ...firewood. You give the impression that missionaries use
Christianity as some kind of a tool. You either convert, or you don't
get the goods. There is non of that.

Again, if you feel to believe so, then that is your right .

You either listen to the message or you get...nothing. That's the case
with some missionaries in Central and South America.

But you implied that it is ALL! * * Can you tell me of modern
missionaries that do this? Or is this simply a misconception you are
promoting?

No, I didn't imply all.

"Christians force their beliefs on others in many ways other than
attempts at door to door salesmanship. These include but are not
limited to:..."

I notice you didn't say "some" or "a few"