wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 22:17:24 -0400, H the K
wrote:

You can also have the problem with a 9mm or .38 that even a decently
placed shot won't stop a motivated perpetrator before he can get to
you. There are lots of places on the body, even in the head with no
organs that a hole in will cause instant death. It is possible to end
up dead next to your dying attacker.


I practice at a range used by cops, lots of cops, and some military
personnel, too. Once in a while, not often, I see a cop who knows how to
shoot, by which I mean he/she can put most of the rounds in a mag in the
"10" zone on a target at typical "combat" distances. Most of the cops
I've seen at the range are just terrible shots, which I take as meaning
they don't practice often or they don't care.

I'm aware of the vagaries of any situation. Other than the "fun" factor,
that's why I practice quite a bit at the range and other places where I
can shoot.

Here's a fellow firing an older P226, DA-SA. My X-5 is a P-226, but SA
only.

http://politics.theatlantic.com/mt-42/mt-tb.cgi/12231

The last minute shows how quickly the pistol cycles. Lots of shots. My
mags hold 19 rounds, plus one in the pipe.

Oh...I've taken Sig's Close Quarter Operator's Course.



... and nobody told you not to put your finger in the trigger guard
before you are going to shoot?
That has been in self defense and police tactical shooting courses for
decades. We were even starting to incorporate that into skeet shooting
etiquette when I was in Md. Call the bird, point the gun, acquire the
target, then put your finger in the hole and shoot, It is just a habit
you should get into.

This is best demonstrated in one of the most famous cop pictures in
the world.

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/Gonzoles.jpg

30 or so years ago I duck humted with the weapons officer of one of the bay
area police forces. He stated, the average police shootout is at 6', 9
shots are fired and no one is hit. Hard to aim when ducking for cover.

On 7/22/09 11:05 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 22:17:24 -0400, H the
wrote:

You can also have the problem with a 9mm or .38 that even a decently
placed shot won't stop a motivated perpetrator before he can get to
you. There are lots of places on the body, even in the head with no
organs that a hole in will cause instant death. It is possible to end
up dead next to your dying attacker.


I practice at a range used by cops, lots of cops, and some military
personnel, too. Once in a while, not often, I see a cop who knows how to
shoot, by which I mean he/she can put most of the rounds in a mag in the
"10" zone on a target at typical "combat" distances. Most of the cops
I've seen at the range are just terrible shots, which I take as meaning
they don't practice often or they don't care.

I'm aware of the vagaries of any situation. Other than the "fun" factor,
that's why I practice quite a bit at the range and other places where I
can shoot.

Here's a fellow firing an older P226, DA-SA. My X-5 is a P-226, but SA only.

http://politics.theatlantic.com/mt-42/mt-tb.cgi/12231

The last minute shows how quickly the pistol cycles. Lots of shots. My
mags hold 19 rounds, plus one in the pipe.

Oh...I've taken Sig's Close Quarter Operator's Course.



... and nobody told you not to put your finger in the trigger guard
before you are going to shoot?
That has been in self defense and police tactical shooting courses for
decades. We were even starting to incorporate that into skeet shooting
etiquette when I was in Md. Call the bird, point the gun, acquire the
target, then put your finger in the hole and shoot, It is just a habit
you should get into.

This is best demonstrated in one of the most famous cop pictures in
the world.

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/Gonzoles.jpg



Heheh...you just keep on keepin' on. When you are in close quarters and
someone is coming at you with a knife, it's time to put your finger
inside the trigger guard and on the trigger so you can shoot. We're not
talking birds here.

What would *you* wait for before putting your finger on the trigger and
pulling it? Getting slashed or stabbed? Hey, you have to be careful
around washed-up old marines wielding knives.



--
A wise Latina makes better decisions than a dumb elephant.

On 7/23/09 2:11 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 22:07:39 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

30 or so years ago I duck humted with the weapons officer of one of the bay
area police forces. He stated, the average police shootout is at 6', 9
shots are fired and no one is hit. Hard to aim when ducking for cover.


This is like that myth that a shotgun sprays shot everywhere and
anything down range gets hit. All it takes is a few minutes on a skeet
range to prove it is real easy to miss with a shotgun. At ranges
inside 20 feet the pattern is smaller than a dinner plate even with a
cylinder bore.. Short barrels do not affect that much, only chokes.


Well, then, cops, soldiers, whatever, should turn in their guns for knives.


--
A wise Latina makes better decisions than a dumb elephant.

On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 22:07:39 -0700, Calif Bill wrote:


30 or so years ago I duck humted with the weapons officer of one of the
bay area police forces. He stated, the average police shootout is at
6', 9 shots are fired and no one is hit. Hard to aim when ducking for
cover.

NYPD did an analysis of police combat. Your weapons officer friend isn't
too far off the mark. I've also heard, can't swear to it's veracity, but
the average cop never pulls his gun in the line of duty.

http://www.virginiacops.org/Articles...ing/Combat.htm

On 7/23/09 7:15 AM, thunder wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 22:07:39 -0700, Calif Bill wrote:


30 or so years ago I duck humted with the weapons officer of one of the
bay area police forces. He stated, the average police shootout is at
6', 9 shots are fired and no one is hit. Hard to aim when ducking for
cover.

NYPD did an analysis of police combat. Your weapons officer friend isn't
too far off the mark. I've also heard, can't swear to it's veracity, but
the average cop never pulls his gun in the line of duty.

http://www.virginiacops.org/Articles...ing/Combat.htm

My guess is that the police don't train sufficiently for close-in
shooting. I always "warm-up" at the range by first shooting at a target
7 to 10 feet away, then about 20 feet away, and then I run the target
out to 75 feet.

You also need to learn a good pistol pointing technique.

Of course, if you are a warn-out old ninja wannabe, trained by the
marines, you don't need to bring a pistol to a gunfight...just throw
your shuriken.




--
A wise Latina makes better decisions than a dumb elephant.

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 07:37:45 -0400, H the K wrote:


http://www.virginiacops.org/Articles...ing/Combat.htm

My guess is that the police don't train sufficiently for close-in
shooting. I always "warm-up" at the range by first shooting at a target
7 to 10 feet away, then about 20 feet away, and then I run the target
out to 75 feet.

You also need to learn a good pistol pointing technique.

You might want to read down in the article where it states there is a
clear disconnect between range marksmanship, and combat hitsmanship. I
think Calif Bill is correct when he states "Hard to aim when ducking for
cover." As for training, NYPD is second to none.

wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 22:17:24 -0400, H the K
wrote:

You can also have the problem with a 9mm or .38 that even a decently
placed shot won't stop a motivated perpetrator before he can get to
you. There are lots of places on the body, even in the head with no
organs that a hole in will cause instant death. It is possible to end
up dead next to your dying attacker.

I practice at a range used by cops, lots of cops, and some military
personnel, too. Once in a while, not often, I see a cop who knows how to
shoot, by which I mean he/she can put most of the rounds in a mag in the
"10" zone on a target at typical "combat" distances. Most of the cops
I've seen at the range are just terrible shots, which I take as meaning
they don't practice often or they don't care.

I'm aware of the vagaries of any situation. Other than the "fun" factor,
that's why I practice quite a bit at the range and other places where I
can shoot.

Here's a fellow firing an older P226, DA-SA. My X-5 is a P-226, but SA only.

http://politics.theatlantic.com/mt-42/mt-tb.cgi/12231

The last minute shows how quickly the pistol cycles. Lots of shots. My
mags hold 19 rounds, plus one in the pipe.

Oh...I've taken Sig's Close Quarter Operator's Course.



... and nobody told you not to put your finger in the trigger guard
before you are going to shoot?
That has been in self defense and police tactical shooting courses for
decades. We were even starting to incorporate that into skeet shooting
etiquette when I was in Md. Call the bird, point the gun, acquire the
target, then put your finger in the hole and shoot, It is just a habit
you should get into.

This is best demonstrated in one of the most famous cop pictures in
the world.

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/Gonzoles.jpg

But you have to remember, because if all of Harry's lies, insults, and
general nastiness, he's a scared piece of crap that answers his door
with a loaded gun.

On 7/23/09 7:53 AM, thunder wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 07:37:45 -0400, H the K wrote:


http://www.virginiacops.org/Articles...ing/Combat.htm

My guess is that the police don't train sufficiently for close-in
shooting. I always "warm-up" at the range by first shooting at a target
7 to 10 feet away, then about 20 feet away, and then I run the target
out to 75 feet.

You also need to learn a good pistol pointing technique.

You might want to read down in the article where it states there is a
clear disconnect between range marksmanship, and combat hitsmanship. I
think Calif Bill is correct when he states "Hard to aim when ducking for
cover." As for training, NYPD is second to none.

I'm aware of the disconnect.
The only way to be proficient with firearm is to practice, practice,
practice. Now, whether you could shoot someone in combat, that's a
separate question. There's no way to train for that, not really. You can
make your gun handling, positioning, aiming, shooting a reflex, as it
were, but shooting someone, especially the first time, is a leap of
another magnitude, or at least it is for a non-automaton.

I'm just not that impressed with tales of cop gunmanship. Certainly
there are cops who excel at handling firearms, but I don't think that
applies to your typical cop. I've seen too many of them shoot badly at
the ranges, and very few that shoot well. I don't think many of them
practice enough.



--
A wise Latina makes better decisions than a dumb elephant.

On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:25:11 -0400, H the K
wrote:

On 7/22/09 9:11 PM, Gene wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 17:08:54 -0700, wrote:
p

Oh for ****'s sake Gene, you're assuming whomever is weidling the
knife is an expert.

Flawed logic.

The guy in this case obviously meant to kill both women but left one
alive. Sound like a knife expert to you? Neither of the women were
armed from what I understand.

Any dweeb with two hands and an arse can put a bullet through
someone's skull at close range. What's the chance of survival?

And I suppose merely being in possession of a gun somehow imbues the
wielder with magical powers of perfect aim......

At 10 feet with a target the size of an adult human and some
considerable experience handling and shooting firearms?

You don't need perfect aim, just "decent" aim.

BBBAAAWWWAAAHHHHHAAAAAAA!!!!!

1 - I guarentee you don't have considerable experience with guns in
close quarter combat conditions. You have considerable experience
shooting targets although I doubt that also.

2 - I guarentee you, assuming that you could even get a shot off, that
it would be high and to the right passing harmlessly by your
assailant.

3 - I guarentee you, you would hesitate, freeze or your hands would
shake so much you'd be a danger to yourself or others - but not the
perp.

Decent aim - BBBAAWWWWAAAHHHHAAAA!!!!!

You are truly a piece or work.

On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:54:42 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:25:11 -0400, H the K
wrote:

On 7/22/09 9:11 PM, Gene wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 17:08:54 -0700, wrote:
p

Oh for ****'s sake Gene, you're assuming whomever is weidling the
knife is an expert.

Flawed logic.

The guy in this case obviously meant to kill both women but left one
alive. Sound like a knife expert to you? Neither of the women were
armed from what I understand.

Any dweeb with two hands and an arse can put a bullet through
someone's skull at close range. What's the chance of survival?

And I suppose merely being in possession of a gun somehow imbues the
wielder with magical powers of perfect aim......

At 10 feet with a target the size of an adult human and some
considerable experience handling and shooting firearms?

You don't need perfect aim, just "decent" aim.

I suppose you haven't seen those police dash camera pictures where
trained police officers fire lots of ammo without hitting anyone.
What you can do on the range may not translate to what you can do in
bad light, when you are not really prepared and under more than a
little stress.

You can also have the problem with a 9mm or .38 that even a decently
placed shot won't stop a motivated perpetrator before he can get to
you. There are lots of places on the body, even in the head with no
organs that a hole in will cause instant death. It is possible to end
up dead next to your dying attacker.

Just another case of Harry's superior abilities.

The man is truly amazing.