Why not? We paid our taxes for that service already? Why shouldn't home
schoolers get some of what they paid for?

--


Keith
__
Some people are like Slinkies: not really good for anything, but you still
can't help but smile when you see one tumble down the stairs.

"Jack Dale" wrote in message
...

But under no circumstances should home schoolers ask for public
support in the form of resources or assistance from the public system.
If you have principles, stick with them.

Tuuk wrote:

Are you nuts??

Ah...mirror, morror anyone?

See, it is educators like you that are the reason why our students here in
the west are failing or far behind students globally.

No, it is lack of adequate parenting that causes the majority of the
problem, IMO. You apparently think the existence of the public school
system is a valid basis on which parents can abdicate responsibility for
child rearing. Home education *in addition to* that provided by the
public, or private, education system, has *always* been a prerequiste
for first rate education. West or East.

And it is morons like
Harry who are the reason why our workers are failing or far behind
employment globally. Are you and harry brothers?

I didn't see a "Harry" in the thread, but ad hominem vitriol as
certainly pursuasive in informed debate...

Jack,, Give your head a shake.

"Physician, heal thyself"

Don't tell me Jack,, you were an economics professor?? lol,,

Parents should have better control on who is teaching their children, they
should see a police record, employment record (if there is one) resume, and
be allowed to interview the teachers who have influence on their children.
They do in many other countries,,, lol,,, and their students do circles
around the western student.

Yes, and parent should get involved (as in PARTICIPATE, not spectate) in
their kids education! Few parents I encounter even know the names of
their children's teachers. Schools, and school boards, respond to the
demands of the community (read 'parents'), and unfortunately, those
demands are too often for a baby-sitting service that passes children
from grade to grade irrespective of their level of attainment. Let me
ask you a couple of questions:

1. Do you think teachers (or professors for that matter) *like* to
reward students for substandard performance?
2. Do you think teachers (or professors for that matter) *like* to to
have students so disruptive that the learning environment for other
students is degraded, without having the disciplinary tools available to
address, or even ameliorate, the situation (small clue here...parents
don't *like* other people to discipline their unruly progeny)?
3. Do you think the responsibility for teaching respect, courtesy, and
discipline lies with the public school teacher (i.e. instead of with the
parents, as it has been since time immemorial)?

If you answered "yes" to any of those questions, I'll be happy to mail
you a quarter should you like to purchase a clue.


Yes,, thanks for proving my point anyway there Jack,,, you teachers have
failed both the taxpayer and the student and their future here in the west.

Once again, you miss the point. Parents have the responsibility for
preparing their children *for* school, monitoring their performance *at*
school (P.T.A., parent-teacher conferences, etc.), and changing the
educational system when it isn't functioning properly. We live in a
democracy in the US, and inherent in the democratic process is both
personal and social responsibility. Vote out the school board, the
system *will* change. Sit back and carp on newsgroups on the other hand,
and...oh, that's right, nothing happens. Get it?


You know that the west is heading for third world status,, they just said so
on the news as over 95% of all Christmas presents purchased in the west were
manufactured offshore. Ever heard of the trade deficit?

Ever heard of greed? We (in the US) live in the short term. We
artifically elevate our standard of living (on the cheap labor of third
world countries, to a large extent) without thought to long term
consequences. That is a serious social/cultural issue we certainly need
to address.

Your postulate, however, that (and I'm paraphrasing of course) if our
children were better educated, *we* would be making the clothes, shoes,
toys, TV's, VCR's, DVD players, etc. that comprise the bulk of that
"95%", is ludicrous on its face. These are produced by unskilled, or
semi-skilled workers (as commonly defined), where the cost per unit
rules the day (almost entirely a function of living standard), NOT the
education level of the workforce.

Sorry to snatch the easy bone from your jaws, but no, I'm not a teacher
(never have been, not married to one). I was, however, lucky enough to
have been raised by parents and grandparents who believed in education,
and their rearing techniques reflected it. So I know adequate parenting
when I see it, even seeing so rarely.

And to those whining about a tax rebate for home schooling, how about
for those who have no children? Shall I get a rebate for the 30 years
I've been paying property taxes for schools I'm not using? Or the roads
*I* don't personally drive on, or the Fire Department *I've* never
personally used, or...get the point? Public education, as with all
social services, benefits *society as a whole* when done properly. We
all reap the benefits, we all pay the costs. We all have a
responsibility to get out and do something when it's not done properly.
Look at voter turnout and tell me how involved people are in society.

Keith Hughes

I have met (US and other) families in the Philippines and the Pacific
Islands who have home schooled out of necessity (lack of comprehensive
western education). We considered it while living in the Philippines for 8
years with 3 school age children but opted for an international school
(another story).

More recently I had friends who set off to the So. Pacific with a
preschooler, with plans to use the Calvet School course material. However,
prior to their departure, I observed that this child was going to be a hand
full. I hesitate to use the term "soiled" but IMHO, could have used a firm
hand in a structured school enviornment. The parents had yet to demonstrate
this "firm hand".

In the subsequent years I read many emails that express their frustration in
dealing with this childs schooling.. Since I haven't heard of this problems
in the last year, I'm assuming (if I should) that the problems have been
resolved.

Jeff, the age of your sons is not the ideal age for removing them from their
"good ole school days" routine and a great deal will depend upon how
excepting they are of your plans. And how involved. I know you have cruised
with them for the past couple of summers and can only assume that they
enjoyed this more than they might have enjoy the routine summer activities
back home.

Having met you a couple years ago, I was left with the impression that you
would make an excellent mentor and teacher and I have no doubt that all
would benefit from your proposed adventure.

Best regards (and hope to share a few anchorages this summer).

Steve
s/v Good Intentions

Tamaroak wrote:

My bride and I are considering taking a year off and doing the Great
Circle Route/Loop, a mere 5000 miles around the east coast, the Erie
Canal and the Tenn-Tom. We would take our boys who will be 14 and 15 and
home schooling them on the boat, using a prepared curriculum and a
satellite Internet connection.

Does anyone out there have any experience in this type of adventure?

I have not done this myself. I have observed many parents who have
done so in the course of living on the boat.

There's a program on TV about a dentist from Canada who took his
children on a circumnavigation (boat was called Ocean Wanderer and
that's the name of the series) starting when they were small. One
of them has become a professional golfer I believe, and the other one
has gone back to sea on a bigger boat because she thought she was too
young to really appreciate the initial part of the trip. They had
some problem with the boy (both children adopted) because he wasn't
very interested in schooling. Part of it I think was that the mom was
unsure of herself in this venue. It's kind of a hokey show IMHO, but
some of it is interesting.

I've met another couple from Canada who did a year on the boat - they
are teachers and took a year's sabbatical. They had two boys about
the ages of yours - one in middle school and one in 9th grade. The
journal of their trip on Carellen is here.
http://www.angelfire.com/sd/humpboattrip/
We met them in the Dismal Swamp
http://www.angelfire.com/sd/humpboattrip/ where the bow of our boat is
just visible on the left of their boat, and again in Oriental and then
again in St. Augustine.

There was a couple with a boat like ours (Jean Marie) that did a
circumnavigation with girls that were 10 and 14 and both of them
seemed to have turned out well.

Friends of mine who both taught middle school (and were very good
teachers BTW) until they retired early due to the restrictive policies
no child left behind, and lack of support for the teachers or any
possibility of discipline for the kids who did and said just exactly
what they wanted, took their grandchild down to the Bahamas with them
(she was living with them full time as her mom had no time for her)
last winter, and after they got back, she did better in school than
she has ever done before. They are down in Florida again this year.

I also saw some live-aboard kids in Marathon when we were there last
winter, The girls seem to miss the social life of school. Some of
them went to a local school while they were living at the dock for
several months.



grandma Rosalie

wherever there is education...its the parents, not the schools that
make a difference.......some folks love to have someone to pile
on blame...so, why not select the school system? they should take a
look at themselves 1st...imho.....

And to those whining about a tax rebate for home schooling, how about for
those who have no children? Shall I get a rebate for the 30 years I've
been paying property taxes for schools I'm not using? Or the roads *I*
don't personally drive on, or the Fire Department *I've* never personally
used, or...get the point? Public education, as with all social services,
benefits *society as a whole* when done properly. We all reap the
benefits, we all pay the costs. We all have a responsibility to get out
and do something when it's not done properly. Look at voter turnout and
tell me how involved people are in society.

Keith Hughes

Ummmm...in the context of the thread, the silly point was offered that home
schoolers should be "consistent" in their philosophy and not seek any
services from the public school system. Some of us pointed out that there is
no inconsistency in this at all, since those who home school pay into the
system through taxes and are entitled to get something out of it. Indeed,
whatever services a home schooling parent would receive is far less than
what has been paid in.

Now, even if there were a "rebate" for home schooling, that money would be
used to eduate the children in question, though outside of the public
system. This would still provide the alleged societal benefit you are
touting above. Unless, of course, the real issue isn't whether children
receive an education but whether it is the government doing it?

BTW: My wife is a public school teacher in So. California. She's a great
teacher but it's a really crappy system--massively top heavy bureaucracy,
wasteful, poorly run, etc. Granting that we cannot abolish the public
education system entirely (my personal preference), we support vouchers as a
good compromise. And as for the teacher's union, we got her out of that
years ago (though we are obligated to pay a relatively small amount of dues
that goes to the collective bargaining portion, but nothing that goes to
support their political agenda).

--Alan Gomes

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 22:12:02 GMT, "Alan Gomes" said:

And as for the teacher's union, we got her out of that
years ago (though we are obligated to pay a relatively small amount of
dues
that goes to the collective bargaining portion, but nothing that goes to
support their political agenda).

You're fortunate. Unions have been doing everything they can to make sure
nobody knows about that required option.

Dave,
There's a great organization called the National Right to Work Association
that gives step-by-step instructions for how to get out of the teacher's
union and receive back a sizeable rebate in the dues. They are at
http://www.nrtw.org/. Using their materials we have helped several teachers
at my wife's school do the same.

It's too bad that we have to pay them anything at all. But at least we no
longer have to pay them the bulk of the dues, especially because that's the
part that they use to advance an agenda with which we are in 1000%
disagreement.
--Alan

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Alan Gomes wrote:

BTW: My wife is a public school teacher in So. California. She's a great
teacher but it's a really crappy system--massively top heavy bureaucracy,
wasteful, poorly run, etc. Granting that we cannot abolish the public
education system entirely (my personal preference), we support vouchers
as a good compromise. And as for the teacher's union, we got her out of
that years ago (though we are obligated to pay a relatively small amount
of dues that goes to the collective bargaining portion, but nothing that
goes to support their political agenda).

--Alan Gomes

If you and your wife had any integrity, she'd quit working for the public
school system altogether, and go to work for a private voucher system
school, where she could be hired and fired on a whim, earn about a third
to a half less, and, of course, not be a part of a teachers' retirement
system.

What do you say, Alan? If you are so opposed to public education, why are
you extracting benefits from it?

Harry,

The answer is quite simple, actually.

We wish that the system did not exist at all. But granting that it does, we
care about the kids in that system and wish to influence the kids for good.
My wife is an excellent teacher and does what she can to mitigate the
overall damage of the public school system, for the benefit of the kids.

As far as us "extracting benefits from it," my wife *works* for a them and
receives pay that she *earns.* Given the hours that she puts in it's no
gift, and they are not doing us any favors. With her level of education she
could definitely make more money doing something else, but *we* have decided
to benefit on the poor kids that are stuck within that system.

--Alan Gomes

Tamaroak wrote:
My bride and I are considering taking a year off and doing the Great
Circle Route/Loop, a mere 5000 miles around the east coast, the Erie
Canal and the Tenn-Tom. We would take our boys who will be 14 and 15 and
home schooling them on the boat, using a prepared curriculum and a
satellite Internet connection.

Does anyone out there have any experience in this type of adventure?

Capt. Jeff
1st...Happy Christmas whether you celebrate it or not, the sentiments I
send are good ones
2nd...my,my what a hornet's nest you've upturned

to the point, which many of the pointy-headed axe-grinders in this
thread seem to have missed (perhaps they've missed out on a good
publicly funded education and judging by some of the comments, they have!)
1. Home-schooling is a great alternative. You're going to give your
kids a once-in-a-lifetime experience
2. Contact your local school board and ask what they have to offer in
the way of distance education
3. If they have nothing, contact www.edu.gov.on.ca and see if there's
anything the Ontario government can offer you in the way of distance
education curriculum and/or credit. Quite a few foreign systems have
programs which offer the Ontario curriculum with the opportunity to get
credit.
4. Given the foregoing you are forewarned that the curriculum has been
created by a bunch of lazy, selfish, union scum (like my Masters
educated wife) who have no interest in the welfare of your child-at
least according to the cognoscenti who have responded to your thread-
but be that as it may, it is a good option you can investigate.

Go for it!

Alan, your middle name must be "Tuna". Harry is an old troller with nothing
better to do all day but troll for "Tuna". Ignore him.
Gordon

"Alan Gomes" wrote in message
news:E4Kzd.566802$wV.352492@attbi_s54...

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Alan Gomes wrote:

BTW: My wife is a public school teacher in So. California. She's a
great
teacher but it's a really crappy system--massively top heavy
bureaucracy,
wasteful, poorly run, etc. Granting that we cannot abolish the public
education system entirely (my personal preference), we support vouchers
as a good compromise. And as for the teacher's union, we got her out of
that years ago (though we are obligated to pay a relatively small
amount
of dues that goes to the collective bargaining portion, but nothing
that
goes to support their political agenda).

--Alan Gomes

If you and your wife had any integrity, she'd quit working for the
public
school system altogether, and go to work for a private voucher system
school, where she could be hired and fired on a whim, earn about a third
to a half less, and, of course, not be a part of a teachers' retirement
system.

What do you say, Alan? If you are so opposed to public education, why
are
you extracting benefits from it?

Harry,

The answer is quite simple, actually.

We wish that the system did not exist at all. But granting that it does,
we
care about the kids in that system and wish to influence the kids for
good.
My wife is an excellent teacher and does what she can to mitigate the
overall damage of the public school system, for the benefit of the kids.

As far as us "extracting benefits from it," my wife *works* for a them and
receives pay that she *earns.* Given the hours that she puts in it's no
gift, and they are not doing us any favors. With her level of education
she
could definitely make more money doing something else, but *we* have
decided
to benefit on the poor kids that are stuck within that system.

--Alan Gomes