"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Alan Gomes wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

Alan Gomes wrote:


BTW: My wife is a public school teacher in So. California. She's a great
teacher but it's a really crappy system--massively top heavy
bureaucracy, wasteful, poorly run, etc. Granting that we cannot abolish
the public education system entirely (my personal preference), we
support vouchers as a good compromise. And as for the teacher's union,
we got her out of that years ago (though we are obligated to pay a
relatively small amount of dues that goes to the collective bargaining
portion, but nothing that goes to support their political agenda).

--Alan Gomes

If you and your wife had any integrity, she'd quit working for the public
school system altogether, and go to work for a private voucher system
school, where she could be hired and fired on a whim, earn about a third
to a half less, and, of course, not be a part of a teachers' retirement
system.

What do you say, Alan? If you are so opposed to public education, why are
you extracting benefits from it?


Harry,

The answer is quite simple, actually.

We wish that the system did not exist at all. But granting that it does,
we care about the kids in that system and wish to influence the kids for
good. My wife is an excellent teacher and does what she can to mitigate
the overall damage of the public school system, for the benefit of the
kids.

As far as us "extracting benefits from it," my wife *works* for a them
and receives pay that she *earns.* Given the hours that she puts in it's
no gift, and they are not doing us any favors. With her level of
education she could definitely make more money doing something else, but
*we* have decided to benefit on the poor kids that are stuck within that
system.

--Alan Gomes

I suspect that your wife's pay and benefits are the result of labor
negotiations between the teachers' assn and the board of education. I'm
not saying she doesn't earn her pay, because I know how hard good teachers
work. But if it were not for that assn, your wife would be making a bit
more than wal-mart employees.

Sure. Whatever you say.
--AG

But under no circumstances should home schoolers ask for public
support in the form of resources or assistance from the public system.
If you have principles, stick with them.


We have lived in two school systems that have home school departments that you
can transfer to. Home schooling is a part of the system at least in some areas.
They are happy to work it out with you too. You just have to ask.


Dick

Leaving much (edited for brevity) of Keith's diatribe for context, my
comments at the end:

"Keith Hughes" wrote in message
...

Yes, and parent should get involved (as in PARTICIPATE, not spectate) in
their kids education! Few parents I encounter even know the names of
their children's teachers. Schools, and school boards, respond to the
demands of the community (read 'parents'), and unfortunately, those
demands are too often for a baby-sitting service that passes children
from grade to grade irrespective of their level of attainment.

Once again, you miss the point. Parents have the responsibility for
preparing their children *for* school, monitoring their performance *at*
school (P.T.A., parent-teacher conferences, etc.), and changing the
educational system when it isn't functioning properly. We live in a
democracy in the US, and inherent in the democratic process is both
personal and social responsibility. Vote out the school board, the
system *will* change. Sit back and carp on newsgroups on the other hand,
and...oh, that's right, nothing happens. Get it?

Sorry to snatch the easy bone from your jaws, but no, I'm not a teacher
(never have been, not married to one). I was, however, lucky enough to
have been raised by parents and grandparents who believed in education,
and their rearing techniques reflected it. So I know adequate parenting
when I see it, even seeing so rarely.

And to those whining about a tax rebate for home schooling, how about
for those who have no children? Shall I get a rebate for the 30 years
I've been paying property taxes for schools I'm not using? Or the roads
*I* don't personally drive on, or the Fire Department *I've* never
personally used, or...get the point? Public education, as with all
social services, benefits *society as a whole* when done properly. We
all reap the benefits, we all pay the costs. We all have a
responsibility to get out and do something when it's not done properly.
Look at voter turnout and tell me how involved people are in society.

Keith Hughes

Interesting you should say that. In our county, for a few years out of the
last several, the fastest growing in the country (read: infrastructure
challenges), 65 and over get exempted from the school portion of the
property taxes.

As that comprises about 90% of the property tax burden, and they then also
get a homestead exemption, doubled for 65, seniors in our county get to kick
back for a few years until they snuff it. If I'd have known that, I'd have
the technical owner of my home having registered for that privilege! (My
kids are long out of the system; I was very involved in their schooling and
activities, and didn't begrudge the taxes paid.)

(The technical owner part is that rather than take a deed, I did a contract
for deed. So, the original owner is still "owner of record" despite our
beneficial ownership. Because it's more appropriate at this time, I'll be
getting the deed this year - but I'm some way from qualifying for the break,
let alone that we're cutting the cord and leaving!)

L8R

Skip

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig
http://tinyurl.com/384p2

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

Just a snippet from GMBs post here (BTW, Tom sends his regards):

There was a couple with a boat like ours (Jean Marie) that did a
circumnavigation with girls that were 10 and 14 and both of them
seemed to have turned out well.


The girls from Jean Marie have done radically more than "all right." I
can't begin to recite the accomplishments and differences between them and
the usual student - but I'm sure their dad and mom would happily expound.

They're a few boats down from us as they do a complete refit in Salt Creek
Marina, and I've had several opportunities to chat them up in the course of
going by.

Suffice it to say, if you're involved, caring and willing to put in the
work, kids who are home schooled - let alone in an international environment
where they have to create their own entertainment as well as learn by
osmosis - should easily outdistance conventionally schooled kids, and do it
on less than half the time, to boot (no waiting for the slowest, no
bureaucracy, no reviewing for the first 3 months to re-implant what was lost
over the summer, etc.).

L8R

Skip and Lydia, trying desperately to get the boat finished before money
and/or time runs out


--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig
http://tinyurl.com/384p2

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

Mr. Gomes

Alan Gomes wrote:
And to those whining about a tax rebate for home schooling, how about for
those who have no children? Shall I get a rebate for the 30 years I've
been paying property taxes for schools I'm not using? Or the roads *I*
don't personally drive on, or the Fire Department *I've* never personally
used, or...get the point? Public education, as with all social services,
benefits *society as a whole* when done properly. We all reap the
benefits, we all pay the costs. We all have a responsibility to get out
and do something when it's not done properly. Look at voter turnout and
tell me how involved people are in society.

Keith Hughes


Ummmm...in the context of the thread, the silly point was offered that home
schoolers should be "consistent" in their philosophy and not seek any
services from the public school system.

'Silly' how exactly?

Some of us pointed out that there is
no inconsistency in this at all, since those who home school pay into the
system through taxes and are entitled to get something out of it.

Therein lies the fallacy. You are not entitled to "get something out of
it", you are entitled to *participate in* it. My wife and I, by virtue
of being childless, *cannot* get anything out of it, yet we support the
system equally along with the 'users'. You seem to be misconstruing the
purpose of a social program. The sufficiently affluent have always opted
out of social programs, yet they have always been required to support
them. The point is, *Society* has determined the structure and number of
the social systems it supports (nearly a truism), the purpose being to
advance the needs and goals of society as a whole, not to address
individual needs. By virtue of being part of society, we are all
required to support society.

Indeed,
whatever services a home schooling parent would receive is far less than
what has been paid in.

Again, your taxes support societal needs and desires. Save for sales
tax, there is no quid pro quo relative to taxation.

Now, even if there were a "rebate" for home schooling, that money would be
used to eduate the children in question, though outside of the public
system. This would still provide the alleged societal benefit you are
touting above.

To an extent. Also, to the extent that money is withdrawn from the
public system by those who, with voucher money, can afford high cost
private schools, the public system is further impoverished, and the
education of those left behind suffers accordingly. Even in a well run
system, there will be a large fixed overhead that is not proportional to
the number of students (e.g. facilities, maintenance, utilities,
administration, etc.). As dollars are withdrawn from the system, a
higher proportion of the available dollars goes to support this
overhead, and the dollars/student drops accordingly. A net loss for
society IMO.

Unless, of course, the real issue isn't whether children
receive an education but whether it is the government doing it?

It appears that your wife is 'doing it'. Is she the government? "The
Government" is merely a mental construct we use for convenience. It does
not exist as an entity. It is 'us', and as we nurture it, it is healthy
and productive, but as we neglect it, it grows weeds or lies fallow.

BTW: My wife is a public school teacher in So. California. She's a great
teacher but it's a really crappy system--massively top heavy bureaucracy,
wasteful, poorly run, etc.

There are a great many wonderful teachers out there. I'm glad your wife
is one of them. But the system will remain "massively top heavy
bureaucracy, wasteful, poorly run, etc." as long as people continue to
be mentally lazy and talk in terms of "they", or "them", or "the
guvumint", to conveniently divorce themselves from any personal
responsibility for either creating, or solving, the problem. Again, look
at the voter turnout in this country. Can we really expect parents that
are too lazy to even vote, to put adequate effort into rearing and
educating their children?

Granting that we cannot abolish the public
education system entirely (my personal preference), we support vouchers as a
good compromise.

Well, this is a basic matter of philosophy. Abolish the public system,
and only the affluent will be able to afford decent education. And I'm
not defending the performance of the extant public school system. It
*will* however, work well with parental participation. It happens in
*MANY* places.

As for vouchers, again, they benefit the affluent, but at the cost of
impoverishing the public system. AND it's another bureaucracy, AND it
will still require tax money, AND it will still disproportionately
disadvantage poor states/counties/municipalities unless federally
administered, etc. Hardly a panacea to my mind.

And I'm sure you'll easily find a great school that you can afford with
*only* the voucher money. One at which your wife would be happy
teaching...with the concomitant salary and benefits package of course.

And as for the teacher's union, we got her out of that
years ago (though we are obligated to pay a relatively small amount of dues
that goes to the collective bargaining portion, but nothing that goes to
support their political agenda).

Historically, labor unions have played an invaluable role in forming our
society, and establishing basic human rights (i.e. labor vs. servitude).
Laudable accomplishments. They have also been a source of graft and
corruption, often on a grand scale, and thus need policed just as does
the government. Given the history of union accomplishments, the right to
unionize should clearly be protected, IMO. The 'right to work' should
also be protected, IMO. Personally, I've never been in a union, and
detest the "union mentality", at least as stereo-typified (i.e. 'it aint
*my* job, call a ______[insert trade]'), it's stupid, wasteful, and
counterproductive.

Bottom line, if you don't want "the government" involved in education,
then stay away from *MY* tax dollars - they, like yours, support society
at large, and you don't get "line-item abdication" for societal
responsibilities. You want to use private schools, great. You want to
home school, great. I have no problem with either. But *IF* tax dollars
are used for education, they should be used for the maximum benefit to
the maximum number of students, irrespective of socioeconomic status.
Vouchers don't do that. A reorganization of how public education is
funded, administered, and evaluated could. But it would be a lot more
work, and lacking sufficient motivation (i.e. angry voters), congress,
legislatures, and school boards aren't going to do it.

Keith Hughes

Ok, Keith. You win. I'm convinced. The public school system produces such a
massive societal benefit that no amount of taxation to support it is
excessive. Without it we'd have a society of kids who could not read or
write and who are in general functionally illiterate, who could not do
simple math, and who had no knowledge of world history or even of the great
books of western civilization.

Oh, wait! That's what we presently have *with* the public school system.
Quick! Someone raise my property taxes so we can throw some more money at
it!

Well, it's been fun playing. Gotta get back to life beyond usenet. So go
ahead and have the last word and I'll see you around sometime--maybe on the
water. (A feeble attempt at getting back to something sailing related
here....)

--Alan

"Skip Gundlach" skipgundlach sez use my name at earthlink dot
fishcatcher (net) - with apologies for the spamtrap wrote:

Just a snippet from GMBs post here (BTW, Tom sends his regards):

There was a couple with a boat like ours (Jean Marie) that did a
circumnavigation with girls that were 10 and 14 and both of them
seemed to have turned out well.

The girls from Jean Marie have done radically more than "all right." I
can't begin to recite the accomplishments and differences between them and
the usual student - but I'm sure their dad and mom would happily expound.

I don't see or hear from Tom much anymore (I've only been to the
Florida west coast once recently and that was in 2001, and I met Tom
and Jean in person once at an SSCA meeting in 1999) and I didn't
remember off the top of my head exactly what the girls had done
academically or even what their ages were or whether they were 10 and
14 when they finished or when they started out. Glad to hear they are
all well.

They're a few boats down from us as they do a complete refit in Salt Creek
Marina, and I've had several opportunities to chat them up in the course of
going by.

Suffice it to say, if you're involved, caring and willing to put in the
work, kids who are home schooled - let alone in an international environment
where they have to create their own entertainment as well as learn by
osmosis - should easily outdistance conventionally schooled kids, and do it
on less than half the time, to boot (no waiting for the slowest, no
bureaucracy, no reviewing for the first 3 months to re-implant what was lost
over the summer, etc.).

L8R

Skip and Lydia, trying desperately to get the boat finished before money
and/or time runs out

We're in Miami Florida now by car. We aren't sailing down the ICW for
awhile - Bob feels it is too stressful and there isn't enough chance
for actually sailing down here.

grandma Rosalie

On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 17:25:46 -0500, Matt Colie
wrote:


Would I subject two boys to this - in a heartbeat. They will be set in
an experience that they will able to draw on for a lifetime. The people
that they might not get along with aren't worth getting along with anyway.

Well said. I have a three year old son and my wife and I plan to world
cruise for five or more years starting in '08 when he will be seven. I
arrived in public school at age five able to read and count at about
the grade two level (at that time of 1966). I was bored out of my
skull in school and yet because the local principal didn't approve of
jumping grades I had to tough it out. It's said that kids who jump
grades seem socially inept because of their small size and so on. What
isn't considered is that the boredom of facing zero challenges tends
to make little age-appropriate troublemakers...thus I was the
brightest kid in detention until I learned the sort of base cunning
that will deceive a public-school teacher.

I would have been better off with an assignment list, a library card
and occasional appointments with a teaching mentor. I realize not all
kids fit this mold, but self-study on a boat is looking better all the
time.

R.

Harry Krause wrote:

Alan Gomes wrote:
Ok, Keith. You win. I'm convinced. The public school system produces such a
massive societal benefit that no amount of taxation to support it is
excessive. Without it we'd have a society of kids who could not read or
write and who are in general functionally illiterate, who could not do
simple math, and who had no knowledge of world history or even of the great
books of western civilization.

Oh, wait! That's what we presently have *with* the public school system.
Quick! Someone raise my property taxes so we can throw some more money at
it!
snip

You might have a bit of credibility on this issue if your wife were not
teaching in the public schools and drawing benefits from doing so.

I was a teacher and so was my husband. We got out of teaching and
took LOWER paying jobs because teachers are treated so poorly by the
administration. That's where you should have your beef. Not with the
folks on the line.

The teacher's salaries were negotiated by the union rep, but they did
it for all the teachers whether they belonged to the union or not. It
wasn't mandatory.

I really regretted leaving teaching because it was something I really
wanted to do. But not enough to let them have me teach math, which I
was certified for but horrible at (I actually took pre-calculus in
college and passed it with a B, and then the following year took an
exam to see if I could take calculus and failed it. My high school
daughter took it with me and passed.)

And in my husband's case although he was certified to teach physics,
chemistry, math and general science (he is an engineer), he told the
powers that be that he did not believe he was qualified to teach
chemistry. They not only assigned him to teach Chem II, but also told
the local community college that he would be glad to teach their Chem
labs.


Last week, a "Beltway Bandit" contractor I know offered me a subcontract
in connection with a government agency involved in aspects of "Homeland
Security." The project involved researching and writing a number of
manuals and other instructional materials. I have the proper clearance.
I turned him down. The work was "political" in terms of inclusion of
materials and levels of approval.

I turned the work down. There is nothing I would do to help the Bush
administration, directly or indirectly.

grandma Rosalie

Tamaroak wrote:
My bride and I are considering taking a year off and doing the Great
Circle Route/Loop, a mere 5000 miles around the east coast, the Erie
Canal and the Tenn-Tom. We would take our boys who will be 14 and 15
and
home schooling them on the boat, using a prepared curriculum and a
satellite Internet connection.

Does anyone out there have any experience in this type of adventure?

Capt. Jeff

Without getting bogged down in the school-vs.-homeschool argument, I'll
just add my $.02. We started homeschooling our kids a couple of years
ago. We haven't set sail yet; but we've been doing a lot of
RV-around-the-US road travelling. It's wonderful. Our kids are
currently 12 and 10.

Rather than recommend a curriculum, I'm gonna recommend that you look
into unschooling. Check unschooling.com and/or just google the term.
Especially in the context of travelling, where each day brings its own
knowledge to you, why be limited to a curriculum? School-at-home is
only slightly more freeing and educational than heading to P.S. 101
every day. Look into unschooling. You'll love it and your kids will
thank you every day of the future with their interesting, self-directed
lives.

Frank