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#1
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sailing junk
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 10:20:43 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll
wrote: On Feb 25, 4:56 am, Bruce in Bangkok decypher- wrote: On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 00:50:29 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll wrote: Ive got the wood milling for a sampan that i scaled up to thirty feet. going to build it as a study for a 50'X16' or so foot junk. traditional building methods and all that. but i need some info from cruisers about layout as i draft the plans. Ive spent most of my life on work boats and have no real clue as to what a comfortable house layout would be. yes i know there is a building group but most of the folks there are not cruising over long distances. so here is the list of stuff i am working on. Ive got a relatively large amount of space to play with, excluding a center hold of about 15 by 15. I figure a small forepeak trunk for visitors and a gen set. engine, batteries etc. under benches and behind ladders 1. food storage. 2.galley lay out. 3. salon layout. 4.head 5. state room lay out. what accommodation plans for which boats do you find easy to use, comfortable, logical and easy to maintain. You are using two terms that are totally different. Sampans and Junks are totally different.. Different hull form and different construction entirely. From your description I suspect that you are talking about a junk as a sampan is pretty much a flat bottomed rowing skiff. As a Junk has a nearly square hull cross section there is an amazing amount of room in them compared to a conventional western sail boat. They are also slower :-) The living space on a real junk is almost always in the stern, amidships is hold and forward is not much more then a cubby. A friend designed the interior of his boat using a sliding scale based on how much time he spent in a spot to calculate the size. He reckoned that he spent very little time in the Head so it was just big enough to back in and squat. He only slept in the sleeping compartment so it was only slightly larger then the bunk. His wife really liked to cook so there was a fairly large galley and finally they reckoned that they spent most of their time in the salon so it had the most room. I was aboard his boat any number of times and it did seem pretty spacious for a 38 ft. boat. Food storage. If you plan to live aboard you probably want a fridge. There are two basic systems Electric (12 VDC) driven and engine driven. You can have a eutectic system with either type of power but a conventional refrigerator will be electric. My air cooled condenser 12 VDC fridge draws about 5 amps when the compressor runs and it runs about half eh time - say 60 AH/day. More modern ones use appreciably less electricity. An engine driven one will require running the engine at least once a day and sometimes more often but if you are anchored out you will probably run your engine regularly to keep the batteries up anyway. Or have a bunch of solar panels. Out of curiosity, what are you doing with the cargo hold? Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) Actually i am talking about two different boats here and i am very well aware of the differences between the hull forms. the sampan is to use the traditional building methods before i build a fifty foot junk. planks with floors and bulkheads are not like the western skeleton with planks, the whole mind set and assumption base is different. however both sampans and junks are built with the same methods. building with the traditional methods is what i do. yep i like house aft boats. part of the below decks area froward is for machinery. gen set, water maker, the noisy stuff. with a small accommodation for guests or kids.partially trunked. LOL everyone i show the plans to tells me that junks are slow and don't go to the wind as well as western boats. I don't want a race boat i want a cruising boat. more important to me is the comfort and distance capability, might take me longer to arrive but i can have a nice ride. I figure the junk will be my last boat and its gotta travel well for long transits. Junks are slow, mostly due to the large wetted area of most of them and they don't go to windward much better then a square rigger because of the sails. The Europeans, in the late 17 and 1800's rigged some junk hulls with Western sail plans ( called Lorchas I believe) to get better windward ability. On the other hand, the battened sails do make it real easy to reef; just lower the sail a bit. that sliding scale sounds like a good idea got the electrical covered it will be 12 volt solar/wind with a generator backup. I am going to put electric moters in this so i will have two battery banks. one for house and bridge power and one for propulsion with a crossover just in case. Ahh the cargo hold. it will be able to be pumped full of water when the boat is running lite with no cargo or fishing; and dry when i need to transport bulk cargo. it will be able to take 22 full pallets of goods with room for dunnage or be hand stacked to get more cargo in. in my mind a boat must be able to pay her own way and normally this means hauling goods be they fish or dry to other places. since i figure we will be running up north i can make a bit of cash on bulk cargo for friends in the more remote villages ( i have already researched this option and spoken to many folks about this plan and most have agreed that if i offered this service i would have as much if not more work than i can handle). 22 pallets of box milk is a very valuable cargo in the chain since liquids cost dearly to fly. sides cargo holds make great playpens. If you expect to sail to windward you will probably need either lee boards or center boards I suspect. Traditional junk hulls were built for either river and in-shore sailing or ocean sailing. Not both. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
#2
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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sailing junk
On Feb 25, 5:26 pm, Bruce in Bangkok decypher-
wrote: On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 10:20:43 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll wrote: On Feb 25, 4:56 am, Bruce in Bangkok decypher- wrote: On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 00:50:29 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll wrote: Ive got the wood milling for a sampan that i scaled up to thirty feet.. going to build it as a study for a 50'X16' or so foot junk. traditional building methods and all that. but i need some info from cruisers about layout as i draft the plans. Ive spent most of my life on work boats and have no real clue as to what a comfortable house layout would be. yes i know there is a building group but most of the folks there are not cruising over long distances. so here is the list of stuff i am working on. Ive got a relatively large amount of space to play with, excluding a center hold of about 15 by 15. I figure a small forepeak trunk for visitors and a gen set. engine, batteries etc. under benches and behind ladders 1. food storage. 2.galley lay out. 3. salon layout. 4.head 5. state room lay out. what accommodation plans for which boats do you find easy to use, comfortable, logical and easy to maintain. You are using two terms that are totally different. Sampans and Junks are totally different.. Different hull form and different construction entirely. From your description I suspect that you are talking about a junk as a sampan is pretty much a flat bottomed rowing skiff. As a Junk has a nearly square hull cross section there is an amazing amount of room in them compared to a conventional western sail boat. They are also slower :-) The living space on a real junk is almost always in the stern, amidships is hold and forward is not much more then a cubby. A friend designed the interior of his boat using a sliding scale based on how much time he spent in a spot to calculate the size. He reckoned that he spent very little time in the Head so it was just big enough to back in and squat. He only slept in the sleeping compartment so it was only slightly larger then the bunk. His wife really liked to cook so there was a fairly large galley and finally they reckoned that they spent most of their time in the salon so it had the most room. I was aboard his boat any number of times and it did seem pretty spacious for a 38 ft. boat. Food storage. If you plan to live aboard you probably want a fridge. There are two basic systems Electric (12 VDC) driven and engine driven. You can have a eutectic system with either type of power but a conventional refrigerator will be electric. My air cooled condenser 12 VDC fridge draws about 5 amps when the compressor runs and it runs about half eh time - say 60 AH/day. More modern ones use appreciably less electricity. An engine driven one will require running the engine at least once a day and sometimes more often but if you are anchored out you will probably run your engine regularly to keep the batteries up anyway. Or have a bunch of solar panels. Out of curiosity, what are you doing with the cargo hold? Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) Actually i am talking about two different boats here and i am very well aware of the differences between the hull forms. the sampan is to use the traditional building methods before i build a fifty foot junk. planks with floors and bulkheads are not like the western skeleton with planks, the whole mind set and assumption base is different. however both sampans and junks are built with the same methods. building with the traditional methods is what i do. yep i like house aft boats. part of the below decks area froward is for machinery. gen set, water maker, the noisy stuff. with a small accommodation for guests or kids.partially trunked. LOL everyone i show the plans to tells me that junks are slow and don't go to the wind as well as western boats. I don't want a race boat i want a cruising boat. more important to me is the comfort and distance capability, might take me longer to arrive but i can have a nice ride. I figure the junk will be my last boat and its gotta travel well for long transits. Junks are slow, mostly due to the large wetted area of most of them and they don't go to windward much better then a square rigger because of the sails. The Europeans, in the late 17 and 1800's rigged some junk hulls with Western sail plans ( called Lorchas I believe) to get better windward ability. On the other hand, the battened sails do make it real easy to reef; just lower the sail a bit. that sliding scale sounds like a good idea got the electrical covered it will be 12 volt solar/wind with a generator backup. I am going to put electric moters in this so i will have two battery banks. one for house and bridge power and one for propulsion with a crossover just in case. Ahh the cargo hold. it will be able to be pumped full of water when the boat is running lite with no cargo or fishing; and dry when i need to transport bulk cargo. it will be able to take 22 full pallets of goods with room for dunnage or be hand stacked to get more cargo in. in my mind a boat must be able to pay her own way and normally this means hauling goods be they fish or dry to other places. since i figure we will be running up north i can make a bit of cash on bulk cargo for friends in the more remote villages ( i have already researched this option and spoken to many folks about this plan and most have agreed that if i offered this service i would have as much if not more work than i can handle). 22 pallets of box milk is a very valuable cargo in the chain since liquids cost dearly to fly. sides cargo holds make great playpens. If you expect to sail to windward you will probably need either lee boards or center boards I suspect. Traditional junk hulls were built for either river and in-shore sailing or ocean sailing. Not both. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) actually the lorchas are the other way round, western hulls with junk sails. I have been using a junk rig for several years now and have had no problems going to the wind. i might not get as high as you but i don't need to. yes i will need a center board forward of the main mast. arguing rigs like arguing religion is just to pass the time. no one will ever win the argument. a bit of reading from a ship modeling site. that has done allot of research (these type folks usually do) www.tara.bz "Product description: ¡°Lorcha¡±, or ¡°Lorch¡±, is a Portuguese word defined in the Oxford dictionary as ¡°a fast sailing craft built in China with the hull after a European model, but rigged in Chinese fashion, usually carrying guns.¡± The Chinese junkmen referred to the Lorcha as °× Óã ¿Ç ¡°bai yu ke¡± (¡°white fish shell¡±) or Ѽ ƨ ¹É ¡°ya pi gu¡± (¡°duck¡¯s buttock¡±). Common belief is that the Lorcha originated in the Portuguese territory of Macau. Ferdinand Mendez Pinto wrote in 1553 of a ¡°Lorch¡± four years before Macau was occupied by his countrymen. In 1517 the Portuguese first arrived at the port of Tamou (adjacent to Shangchuan Dao) and later settled in Ningpo. These early settlers may have built sailing vessels with finer and faster European hulls yet retaining the safer and easier handling of the unstayed Chinese junk or lugsail. C.A. Montalto de Jesus gave this description of the early Lorchas of Macau; ¡°built at the Inner Praya they were usually made of camphor or teak wood. Flat bottomed and shallow drafted they ranged in displacement size from 40 -150 tons. The number of guns ranged from 4 to 20 and from 1 to 24 pounds caliber, the larger guns mounted on swivels. The crew, half Portuguese and half Chinese, were armed with muskets, swords, hatchets and spears¡±. After being established in 1557 Macau soon became the most prosperous European trading centre in the Far East. The Lorcha first gained notoriety fighting Chinese pirate junks in Macau waters ¨C later the pirates used them. By the end of the 18th century more than 60,000 pirates on 600 pirate junks and 1,000 auxiliary craft plied the waters around Macau. The first Lorcha recorded by name was the ¡°Leao¡± which on 6 May 1807 under the command of Macanese pilot Antonio Goncalves Carocha along with the sloop ¡°Princeza Carlota¡± and the galley ¡°Arriaga¡± defeated an armada of 50 pirate junks. The Chinese Imperial Government was so impressed that in November 1809 they ordered six Lorchas to be made in Macau to accompany a fleet of 60 Imperial junks. It was not until 21st January 1810 that the pirates finally surrendered." |
#3
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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sailing junk
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:20:45 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll
wrote: On Feb 25, 5:26 pm, Bruce in Bangkok decypher- wrote: On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 10:20:43 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll wrote: On Feb 25, 4:56 am, Bruce in Bangkok decypher- wrote: On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 00:50:29 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll wrote: Ive got the wood milling for a sampan that i scaled up to thirty feet. going to build it as a study for a 50'X16' or so foot junk. traditional building methods and all that. but i need some info from cruisers about layout as i draft the plans. Ive spent most of my life on work boats and have no real clue as to what a comfortable house layout would be. yes i know there is a building group but most of the folks there are not cruising over long distances. so here is the list of stuff i am working on. Ive got a relatively large amount of space to play with, excluding a center hold of about 15 by 15. I figure a small forepeak trunk for visitors and a gen set. engine, batteries etc. under benches and behind ladders 1. food storage. 2.galley lay out. 3. salon layout. 4.head 5. state room lay out. what accommodation plans for which boats do you find easy to use, comfortable, logical and easy to maintain. You are using two terms that are totally different. Sampans and Junks are totally different.. Different hull form and different construction entirely. From your description I suspect that you are talking about a junk as a sampan is pretty much a flat bottomed rowing skiff. As a Junk has a nearly square hull cross section there is an amazing amount of room in them compared to a conventional western sail boat. They are also slower :-) The living space on a real junk is almost always in the stern, amidships is hold and forward is not much more then a cubby. A friend designed the interior of his boat using a sliding scale based on how much time he spent in a spot to calculate the size. He reckoned that he spent very little time in the Head so it was just big enough to back in and squat. He only slept in the sleeping compartment so it was only slightly larger then the bunk. His wife really liked to cook so there was a fairly large galley and finally they reckoned that they spent most of their time in the salon so it had the most room. I was aboard his boat any number of times and it did seem pretty spacious for a 38 ft. boat. Food storage. If you plan to live aboard you probably want a fridge. There are two basic systems Electric (12 VDC) driven and engine driven. You can have a eutectic system with either type of power but a conventional refrigerator will be electric. My air cooled condenser 12 VDC fridge draws about 5 amps when the compressor runs and it runs about half eh time - say 60 AH/day. More modern ones use appreciably less electricity. An engine driven one will require running the engine at least once a day and sometimes more often but if you are anchored out you will probably run your engine regularly to keep the batteries up anyway. Or have a bunch of solar panels. Out of curiosity, what are you doing with the cargo hold? Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) Actually i am talking about two different boats here and i am very well aware of the differences between the hull forms. the sampan is to use the traditional building methods before i build a fifty foot junk. planks with floors and bulkheads are not like the western skeleton with planks, the whole mind set and assumption base is different. however both sampans and junks are built with the same methods. building with the traditional methods is what i do. yep i like house aft boats. part of the below decks area froward is for machinery. gen set, water maker, the noisy stuff. with a small accommodation for guests or kids.partially trunked. LOL everyone i show the plans to tells me that junks are slow and don't go to the wind as well as western boats. I don't want a race boat i want a cruising boat. more important to me is the comfort and distance capability, might take me longer to arrive but i can have a nice ride. I figure the junk will be my last boat and its gotta travel well for long transits. Junks are slow, mostly due to the large wetted area of most of them and they don't go to windward much better then a square rigger because of the sails. The Europeans, in the late 17 and 1800's rigged some junk hulls with Western sail plans ( called Lorchas I believe) to get better windward ability. On the other hand, the battened sails do make it real easy to reef; just lower the sail a bit. that sliding scale sounds like a good idea got the electrical covered it will be 12 volt solar/wind with a generator backup. I am going to put electric moters in this so i will have two battery banks. one for house and bridge power and one for propulsion with a crossover just in case. Ahh the cargo hold. it will be able to be pumped full of water when the boat is running lite with no cargo or fishing; and dry when i need to transport bulk cargo. it will be able to take 22 full pallets of goods with room for dunnage or be hand stacked to get more cargo in. in my mind a boat must be able to pay her own way and normally this means hauling goods be they fish or dry to other places. since i figure we will be running up north i can make a bit of cash on bulk cargo for friends in the more remote villages ( i have already researched this option and spoken to many folks about this plan and most have agreed that if i offered this service i would have as much if not more work than i can handle). 22 pallets of box milk is a very valuable cargo in the chain since liquids cost dearly to fly. sides cargo holds make great playpens. If you expect to sail to windward you will probably need either lee boards or center boards I suspect. Traditional junk hulls were built for either river and in-shore sailing or ocean sailing. Not both. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) actually the lorchas are the other way round, western hulls with junk sails. Goodness! the dangers of applying "it makes sense" to things you haven't seen. I knew the lorchas were a combination of western and local types and just assumed, I guess, that it was an Asian hull and western rig. I have been using a junk rig for several years now and have had no problems going to the wind. i might not get as high as you but i don't need to. yes i will need a center board forward of the main mast. Well, you can go to windward with square sails, just not as close as with a marconi rig :-) arguing rigs like arguing religion is just to pass the time. no one will ever win the argument. a bit of reading from a ship modeling site. that has done allot of research (these type folks usually do) www.tara.bz "Product description: ??Lorcha??, or ??Lorch??, is a Portuguese word defined in the Oxford dictionary as ??a fast sailing craft built in China with the hull after a European model, but rigged in Chinese fashion, usually carrying guns.?? The Chinese junkmen referred to the Lorcha as ?? ?? ?? ??bai yu ke?? (??white fish shell??) or ?? ?? ?? ??ya pi gu?? (??duck??s buttock??). Common belief is that the Lorcha originated in the Portuguese territory of Macau. Ferdinand Mendez Pinto wrote in 1553 of a ??Lorch?? four years before Macau was occupied by his countrymen. In 1517 the Portuguese first arrived at the port of Tamou (adjacent to Shangchuan Dao) and later settled in Ningpo. These early settlers may have built sailing vessels with finer and faster European hulls yet retaining the safer and easier handling of the unstayed Chinese junk or lugsail. C.A. Montalto de Jesus gave this description of the early Lorchas of Macau; ??built at the Inner Praya they were usually made of camphor or teak wood. Flat bottomed and shallow drafted they ranged in displacement size from 40 -150 tons. The number of guns ranged from 4 to 20 and from 1 to 24 pounds caliber, the larger guns mounted on swivels. The crew, half Portuguese and half Chinese, were armed with muskets, swords, hatchets and spears??. After being established in 1557 Macau soon became the most prosperous European trading centre in the Far East. The Lorcha first gained notoriety fighting Chinese pirate junks in Macau waters ?C later the pirates used them. By the end of the 18th century more than 60,000 pirates on 600 pirate junks and 1,000 auxiliary craft plied the waters around Macau. The first Lorcha recorded by name was the ??Leao?? which on 6 May 1807 under the command of Macanese pilot Antonio Goncalves Carocha along with the sloop ??Princeza Carlota?? and the galley ??Arriaga?? defeated an armada of 50 pirate junks. The Chinese Imperial Government was so impressed that in November 1809 they ordered six Lorchas to be made in Macau to accompany a fleet of 60 Imperial junks. It was not until 21st January 1810 that the pirates finally surrendered." Interesting seeing that the Bugis boats are essentially a European design, excepting for the steering oars in place of the rudder. But you hardly see the bugis sailing ships any more. All diesel now. boats But, sailing in this area was very much a seasonal business, you didn't head south in the S.W. monsoons or the other way in the N.W. winds. By the way, there are a bunch of diesel powered fiberglass junks usually in the yard in Phuket. Fishing boats. I don't know their schedule but they spend one season on the hard and go off somewhere else the other season. Next year they are all back. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
#4
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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sailing junk
On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:40:41 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote: By the end of the 18th century more than 60,000 pirates on 600 pirate junks and 1,000 auxiliary craft plied the waters around Macau. Those figures seem pretty high. Where did they get enough victims. They would have to be stealing from each and every fisherman, just for openers. If you consider water around to be 10 000 sq mi, then there would be a pirate junk every four miles in every direction. Put it that way, it sounds a lot like BS. A dozen pirates in sight at all times? Casady |
#5
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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sailing junk
On Feb 26, 6:22 am, (Richard Casady)
wrote: On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:40:41 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok wrote: By the end of the 18th century more than 60,000 pirates on 600 pirate junks and 1,000 auxiliary craft plied the waters around Macau. Those figures seem pretty high. Where did they get enough victims. They would have to be stealing from each and every fisherman, just for openers. If you consider water around to be 10 000 sq mi, then there would be a pirate junk every four miles in every direction. Put it that way, it sounds a lot like BS. A dozen pirates in sight at all times? Casady sounds like an imperial estimate to me. how else to get the purse strings loose. |
#6
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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sailing junk
"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message ... Junks are slow, mostly due to the large wetted area of most of them and they don't go to windward much better then a square rigger because of the sails. The Europeans, in the late 17 and 1800's rigged some junk hulls with Western sail plans ( called Lorchas I believe) to get better windward ability. Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) Actually, I believe that "lorchas" are western hulls that have eastern lug (junk) rigs. |
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