There were a couple of guys used to do that here in Thailand. Every
month or so they'd come in and tie up at the marina, usually late in
the evening. somebody would meet them and there would be a flurry of
activity. Then you'd see them at the local restaurant for a late
supper and next morning they'd be gone.

Haven't seen them in a while so I suppose that either they got rich
and retired or are living at government expense somewhere.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

pretty much why i wont smuggle stuff you only got three options and
two of them stink on ice.

On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 00:50:29 -0800, someone posting as Two meter troll
purportedly wrote:

Ive got the wood milling for a sampan that i scaled up to thirty feet.
going to build it as a study for a 50'X16' or so foot junk.

a couple of questions...
how old are you? (no I'm not being a smartass)
how long do you predict it would take to build these two boats?

I ask because I'm _seized_ with the notion of building the last boat I'll
own. I'm 54, a few years from retiring and despite the siren call of the
wood boat, I'm all too aware of the number of boats out there whose
construction/restoration/refitting eats up a decade of the owner's
life...and then goes on the market because of health/life issues.

--
58 days till re-launch...STFU Larry...I don't live in SC

On Feb 25, 5:26 pm, Bruce in Bangkok decypher-
wrote:
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 10:20:43 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll



wrote:
On Feb 25, 4:56 am, Bruce in Bangkok decypher-
wrote:
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 00:50:29 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll

wrote:
Ive got the wood milling for a sampan that i scaled up to thirty feet..
going to build it as a study for a 50'X16' or so foot junk.
traditional building methods and all that. but i need some info from
cruisers
about layout as i draft the plans.
Ive spent most of my life on work boats and have no real clue as to
what a comfortable house layout would be. yes i know there is a
building group but most of the folks there are not cruising over long
distances.

so here is the list of stuff i am working on.
Ive got a relatively large amount of space to play with, excluding a
center hold of about 15 by 15.
I figure a small forepeak trunk for visitors and a gen set. engine,
batteries etc. under benches and behind ladders

1. food storage.
2.galley lay out.
3. salon layout.
4.head
5. state room lay out.

what accommodation plans for which boats do you find easy to use,
comfortable, logical and easy to maintain.

You are using two terms that are totally different. Sampans and Junks
are totally different.. Different hull form and different construction
entirely. From your description I suspect that you are talking about a
junk as a sampan is pretty much a flat bottomed rowing skiff.

As a Junk has a nearly square hull cross section there is an amazing
amount of room in them compared to a conventional western sail boat.
They are also slower :-) The living space on a real junk is almost
always in the stern, amidships is hold and forward is not much more
then a cubby.

A friend designed the interior of his boat using a sliding scale based
on how much time he spent in a spot to calculate the size.

He reckoned that he spent very little time in the Head so it was just
big enough to back in and squat. He only slept in the sleeping
compartment so it was only slightly larger then the bunk. His wife
really liked to cook so there was a fairly large galley and finally
they reckoned that they spent most of their time in the salon so it
had the most room.

I was aboard his boat any number of times and it did seem pretty
spacious for a 38 ft. boat.

Food storage. If you plan to live aboard you probably want a fridge.
There are two basic systems Electric (12 VDC) driven and engine
driven. You can have a eutectic system with either type of power but
a conventional refrigerator will be electric. My air cooled condenser
12 VDC fridge draws about 5 amps when the compressor runs and it runs
about half eh time - say 60 AH/day. More modern ones use appreciably
less electricity. An engine driven one will require running the engine
at least once a day and sometimes more often but if you are anchored
out you will probably run your engine regularly to keep the batteries
up anyway. Or have a bunch of solar panels.

Out of curiosity, what are you doing with the cargo hold?

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Actually i am talking about two different boats here and i am very
well aware of the differences between the hull forms.
the sampan is to use the traditional building methods before i build a
fifty foot junk. planks with floors and bulkheads are not like the
western skeleton with planks, the whole mind set and assumption base
is different.
however both sampans and junks are built with the same methods.
building with the traditional methods is what i do.

yep i like house aft boats. part of the below decks area froward is
for machinery. gen set, water maker, the noisy stuff.
with a small accommodation for guests or kids.partially trunked.

LOL everyone i show the plans to tells me that junks are slow and
don't go to the wind as well as western boats. I don't want a race
boat i want a cruising boat. more important to me is the comfort and
distance capability, might take me longer to arrive but i can have a
nice ride. I figure the junk will be my last boat and its gotta travel
well for long transits.

Junks are slow, mostly due to the large wetted area of most of them
and they don't go to windward much better then a square rigger because
of the sails. The Europeans, in the late 17 and 1800's rigged some
junk hulls with Western sail plans ( called Lorchas I believe) to get
better windward ability.

On the other hand, the battened sails do make it real easy to reef;
just lower the sail a bit.



that sliding scale sounds like a good idea

got the electrical covered it will be 12 volt solar/wind with a
generator backup. I am going to put electric moters in this so i will
have two battery banks. one for house and bridge power and one for
propulsion with a crossover just in case.

Ahh the cargo hold. it will be able to be pumped full of water when
the boat is running lite with no cargo or fishing; and dry when i need
to transport bulk cargo. it will be able to take 22 full pallets of
goods with room for dunnage or be hand stacked to get more cargo in.
in my mind a boat must be able to pay her own way and normally this
means hauling goods be they fish or dry to other places. since i
figure we will be running up north i can make a bit of cash on bulk
cargo for friends in the more remote villages ( i have already
researched this option and spoken to many folks about this plan and
most have agreed that if i offered this service i would have as much
if not more work than i can handle). 22 pallets of box milk is a very
valuable cargo in the chain since liquids cost dearly to fly. sides
cargo holds make great playpens.

If you expect to sail to windward you will probably need either lee
boards or center boards I suspect. Traditional junk hulls were built
for either river and in-shore sailing or ocean sailing. Not both.
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

actually the lorchas are the other way round, western hulls with junk
sails.
I have been using a junk rig for several years now and have had no
problems going to the wind. i might not get as high as you but i don't
need to. yes i will need a center board forward of the main mast.

arguing rigs like arguing religion is just to pass the time. no one
will ever win the argument.


a bit of reading from a ship modeling site. that has done allot of
research (these type folks usually do) www.tara.bz

"Product description: ¡°Lorcha¡±, or ¡°Lorch¡±, is a Portuguese word
defined in the Oxford dictionary as ¡°a fast sailing craft built in
China with the hull after a European model, but rigged in Chinese
fashion, usually carrying guns.¡± The Chinese junkmen referred to the
Lorcha as °× Óã ¿Ç ¡°bai yu ke¡± (¡°white fish shell¡±) or Ѽ ƨ ¹É ¡°ya pi
gu¡± (¡°duck¡¯s buttock¡±).

Common belief is that the Lorcha originated in the Portuguese
territory of Macau. Ferdinand Mendez Pinto wrote in 1553 of a ¡°Lorch¡±
four years before Macau was occupied by his countrymen.

In 1517 the Portuguese first arrived at the port of Tamou (adjacent to
Shangchuan Dao) and later settled in Ningpo. These early settlers may
have built sailing vessels with finer and faster European hulls yet
retaining the safer and easier handling of the unstayed Chinese junk
or lugsail.

C.A. Montalto de Jesus gave this description of the early Lorchas of
Macau; ¡°built at the Inner Praya they were usually made of camphor or
teak wood. Flat bottomed and shallow drafted they ranged in
displacement size from 40 -150 tons. The number of guns ranged from 4
to 20 and from 1 to 24 pounds caliber, the larger guns mounted on
swivels. The crew, half Portuguese and half Chinese, were armed with
muskets, swords, hatchets and spears¡±.

After being established in 1557 Macau soon became the most prosperous
European trading centre in the Far East. The Lorcha first gained
notoriety fighting Chinese pirate junks in Macau waters ¨C later the
pirates used them. By the end of the 18th century more than 60,000
pirates on 600 pirate junks and 1,000 auxiliary craft plied the waters
around Macau.

The first Lorcha recorded by name was the ¡°Leao¡± which on 6 May 1807
under the command of Macanese pilot Antonio Goncalves Carocha along
with the sloop ¡°Princeza Carlota¡± and the galley ¡°Arriaga¡± defeated an
armada of 50 pirate junks. The Chinese Imperial Government was so
impressed that in November 1809 they ordered six Lorchas to be made in
Macau to accompany a fleet of 60 Imperial junks. It was not until 21st
January 1810 that the pirates finally surrendered."

"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
...
Junks are slow, mostly due to the large wetted area of most of them
and they don't go to windward much better then a square rigger because
of the sails. The Europeans, in the late 17 and 1800's rigged some
junk hulls with Western sail plans ( called Lorchas I believe) to get
better windward ability.
Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)


Actually, I believe that "lorchas" are western hulls that have eastern lug
(junk) rigs.

On Feb 25, 6:06 pm, wordsmith wrote:
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 00:50:29 -0800, someone posting as Two meter troll

purportedly wrote:
Ive got the wood milling for a sampan that i scaled up to thirty feet.
going to build it as a study for a 50'X16' or so foot junk.

a couple of questions...
how old are you? (no I'm not being a smartass)
how long do you predict it would take to build these two boats?

I ask because I'm _seized_ with the notion of building the last boat I'll
own. I'm 54, a few years from retiring and despite the siren call of the
wood boat, I'm all too aware of the number of boats out there whose
construction/restoration/refitting eats up a decade of the owner's
life...and then goes on the market because of health/life issues.

--
58 days till re-launch...STFU Larry...I don't live in SC

age 42.
the thirty foot will take about a year if i laze around. the 50 will
take probably three years at the outside, again if i laze around. the
diffrence is the amount of interior finishing. almost all the systems
are drop in. one reason for building traditional is the speed of the
build. the other is that you plan the boat out in detale make what you
can make before hand
and dry fit it together leave a bit long so you have room to fine tune
the job.

Don't ask me why it takes some folks so long to build or fix a boat, I
have no clue.

On Feb 25, 2:50*am, Two meter troll wrote:
Ive got the wood milling for a sampan that i scaled up to thirty feet.
going to build it as a study for a *50'X16' or so foot junk.


If you ever get down to Winchester Bay, OR there is one already built.
Its brown. Some old geezer built it and been living on it for 10+
years.

Bob

On Feb 25, 7:06 pm, Bob wrote:
On Feb 25, 2:50 am, Two meter troll wrote:

Ive got the wood milling for a sampan that i scaled up to thirty feet.
going to build it as a study for a 50'X16' or so foot junk.

If you ever get down to Winchester Bay, OR there is one already built.
Its brown. Some old geezer built it and been living on it for 10+
years.

Bob

lol ya ive been down there a few times.
Bob

On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 16:32:48 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll
wrote:

Aft and down below, you've got to carve up the space for safety
reasons. You do not want the possibility of being wave tossed all the
way across a 15 ft beam.

I hadn't thought of this.

It's a serious issue on bigger boats with a wide beam. I've been
offshore twice with people who have broken ribs from being tossed
across the cabin.

On Feb 25, 7:57 pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 16:32:48 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll

wrote:
Aft and down below, you've got to carve up the space for safety
reasons. You do not want the possibility of being wave tossed all the
way across a 15 ft beam.
I hadn't thought of this.

It's a serious issue on bigger boats with a wide beam. I've been
offshore twice with people who have broken ribs from being tossed
across the cabin.

ive been on boats with wide open spaces inside but ive never been on
one as small as 50' with big open spaces inside.
it really would have never occurred to me. I suppose it would after
someone got thrown. better to know it now.

On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:45:30 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll
wrote:


just cause its not used in the east to build boats dont mean it aint
good. folks built ships out of myrtle wood Doug fir is a moderate rot
resistance and PO cedar will last practically forever. it would scale
at mahogany, white oak and well PO cedar. like i said i have the
access to the materials right here and can get custom cut OG if i want
a solid keel 50 feet long i can get one. but frankly why? i am not so
much of a traditionalist as to eschew the use of epoxy and a laminated
keel is far better than a solid chunk of wood, i can build it to have
all the curve and counter stress i need with out having to deal with
grain runout, checking, rot pockets, termites, etc. and if i wish i
can bury a few hundred pounds of lead in it.

Some folks are really crazy over wood. I like it myself for some
things. I put a new rafter in my garage a few years back and the only
2"x6"x25' I could get was Douglas Fir, and it had to be shipped in.
I suppose they're using laminated for the longer runs in new
construction now. From what I've seen, it's stronger than solid wood
and without the downsides you mentioned.
Back in the early '70's I made a full wall (12'x8') book case of
redwood. I went to the lumber yard thinking pine, but the redwood
was much cleaner (perfect really) and cost less than high grade pine!
Wasn't as stiff, but design took care of that.
My last house was full of oak woodwork - real pretty stuff.
But when I pulled some off to refinish it I found it be light as a
feather, it had dried so much in 50 years. Brittle of course, and you
had to real careful to avoid splitting it.
Never looked the same to me knowing that. Didn't even seem like real
wood. More like good-looking cardboard.
Since then I don't pay much attention to wood beyond it doing the job
you set for it. Still like boiled linseed oil though.

--Vic