Nope. The engine has to be in gear; what if it was just be run to charge
batteries, or if it was started but not warmed up?

Of course, if you had an engine but didn't use it to avoid a collision, you'd
have 'splaing to do. And if you were powering you can't slip it into neutral
and suddenly claim rights as a sailboat. This is one of those grey areas where
you'll never get an answer from the CG.




"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Hey, umm... if the engine was started then you're a motorboat.
You have no status at that point, certainly not above a tug/tow.
I hope you were running your steaming light. Otherwise, you
could be cited.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"gonefishiing" wrote in message
...
agreed: for the sake of safety, i always stay away from bigger vessels and
did so on this sail as well, until the tug/barge (TUB) changed course for
the
final time. i was certain i was ok with both vessels until the barge
circled
around and was pointing at me again leaving me no evasive action to take.

neither vessel produced any indication of warning that i was in the way
(lights / horn)

agreed again: i realize i should have hailed them on the radio and asked
for
they're intentions long before events became close.
definitely mistake no.1.
Sometimes i do this, sometimes i don't. it has always been a simple
assesment of whether i believe i will be out of the way. and i did believe
this.
monitoring channel 13 for security calls is also something that i usually
do
at night.
this night i did not.

the engine was started and idling by in case i needed it.
in regards to avoiding a collision, given the speed differentials of the
vessels, i don't believe the engine would have made any difference in this
situation.
in regards to the regs: it would have converted me to a vessel under power
and i think (?) changed my status to some extent in relation to the 2
other
vessels. not that my decision was based on that or that it really does not
matter once fiberglass contacts steel.
the point being i was making good speed in good wind.

given that the tug/barge changed course twice: was he obligated to give
way?
or is this a "fluid" problem that needs to be constantly
reassessed?--which
means always stay out of his way no matter what courses he chooses?
felt like a cat and mouse sort of thing.

as a technical point: their seems to be a difference between an inablitiy
to
maneuver because of draft, in a particular direction--versus the general
maneuverablity of a vessel because of length/speed/wieght.
i am not sure these 2 issues are connected by the regs.
as i understand it, constrained by draft is designed to prevent a vessel
from running aground.
in this regard there was no danger to the freighter who had plenty of room
to the south, which was his general route.
the tub could not turn towards the north to cross in front of me because
of
draft and speed issues, and he could not turn south because of the
freighter, which left him pointed at me.

my guess is not i or the freighter anticipated a circling tub.





"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Not knowing the area, I have a couple of comments.

I'm not sure you were stand on, given that if there is
any doubt about draft constraint. Also, a tug and
a barge have status in most cases, but again, I don't
know the area.

Also, why not hail them and ask their intentions?

Finally, while sailing does give you stand on status
in many circumstances, it also limits your ability to
take evasive action. Perhaps it would have been
prudent to start the engine?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"gonefishiing" wrote in message
...
out for a late night sail last week, which i do a lot of.
western edge of long island sound, ny
on a port tack heading southwest towards the throgs neck bridge.
slack tide.
particulary dark night.
full main and jib set
15 knots wind

keeping a vigilant eye out for ships, i spot a black form against the
lights
of the city in front of me and realize it is a tug and barge and i
also
realize (in the absence of visible nav lights) his small profile means
he
is
headed right at me and steaming.

i decide to tack the boat around 180 degrees and give him some
room........assuming (correctly) his course has 2 possiblities--he is
going
to continue eastbound in the sound or he is going to turn north
towards
eastchester bay to anchor his barge (partial mistake no.1?). he turns
northeast towards the barge anchorage, paralleling my course and i am
east
of him and the barge anchorage- out of his way.

towards the east i spot another ship (freighter) steaming westbound
for
the
gate. he is north of the lane that most of the commerical ships take
for
the
bridge. and a quick visual calculation tells me i can cross his bow
without
problem and also because he needs to turn behind my stern to set his
course
for the bridge (and soon!) (partial mistake no.2?)

they are both aware that i am here-- million candle power lights
illuminating sails had a way of doing that. (my light)

1: the freighter, westbound, is not turning although i have crossed
his
bow--only slightly and he'll end up passing beyond me, far too close
and
moving fast.
2: the tug/barge decides to steer a circle around the barge anchorage
and
end up eastbound again --off my port beam and close enough that i can
see
the pilot. he has slowed down significantly at this point as i am now
between both vessels. (on a starboard tack)

3: they both passed "safely" at my stern, to the south of me the
freigher
first, the tug next.

this was really too close for comfort, and i had my hands full
sailing.
not to negate my responsiblity, i think constrained by draft here is a
relative term, if it even applies. they each had a mile of room to the
south
(behind me) to manuveur and cannot understand why they would choose to
approach so closely, as my actions were clear, my course was
appropriate
and
consistent and meant to give each a wide berth

and for whatever it may be worth, i think everyone took the correct
actions
i believe i was the stand on vessel
the freighter was 2nd in pecking order
the tug/barge gave way

what would you have done differently?

gf.

This is one of those grey areas where
you'll never get an answer from the CG.



ain't no "grey area" at all. your engine is running you are a powerboat,
neutral or not.

Try again, jaxie, the rules are pretty clear that you have to be using the
engine for propulsion.

From Rule 3, Definitions:
(b) The term “power-driven vessel” means any vessel propelled by machinery;
(c) The term “sailing vessel” means any vessel under sail provided that
propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used;



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
This is one of those grey areas where
you'll never get an answer from the CG.



ain't no "grey area" at all. your engine is running you are a powerboat,
neutral or not.

actually, jeffies, the engine is NOT the determining factor.

people show ply the waters of the Sound know that. It is, after all, on the
charts.


Try again, jaxie, the rules are pretty clear that you have to be using the
engine for propulsion.

From Rule 3, Definitions:
(b) The term “power-driven vessel� means any vessel propelled by
machinery;
(c) The term “sailing vessel� means any vessel under sail provided that
propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used;



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
This is one of those grey areas where
you'll never get an answer from the CG.



ain't no "grey area" at all. your engine is running you are a powerboat,
neutral or not.

JAXAshby wrote:
actually, jeffies, the engine is NOT the determining factor.

people show ply the waters of the Sound know that. It is, after all, on the
charts.

Phew. You mixing your meds again tonight, Doodles?

otn

(c) The term “sailing vessel” means any vessel under sail provided that
propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used;

Seems to me that if it was turned on, you're using it.
--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein



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Subject: night sailing - too close for comfort.
From: "katysails"
Date: 08/15/2004 20:39 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


(c) The term “sailing vessel� means any vessel under sail provided that
propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used;

Seems to me that if it was turned on, you're using it.
--

For what? To charge your batteries, pump cooling water, burn fuel, cause
pollution? Or do you mean to propel your boat?
A running engine is just that, a running engine. Until it's connected to a
"reverse gear", propellor shaft, and propellor, which it's turning, it's
nothing more than a piece of machinery.
Now, having said that, have a collision ..... was your engine running? Was it
immediately available for use? Could it's use have changed the outcome? Should
you have made use of it?..... The courts will have to decide, and since you had
a collision and had a running engine which may or may not have been immediately
available, figure you'll share the blame.

Shen

I agree, but I don't think I'd want to try and argue if the CG determines
it was on. How do I prove it wasn't being used to propel the boat?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Shen44" wrote in message
...
Subject: night sailing - too close for comfort.
From: "katysails"
Date: 08/15/2004 20:39 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


(c) The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that
propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used;

Seems to me that if it was turned on, you're using it.
--

For what? To charge your batteries, pump cooling water, burn fuel, cause
pollution? Or do you mean to propel your boat?
A running engine is just that, a running engine. Until it's connected to a
"reverse gear", propellor shaft, and propellor, which it's turning, it's
nothing more than a piece of machinery.
Now, having said that, have a collision ..... was your engine running? Was
it
immediately available for use? Could it's use have changed the outcome?
Should
you have made use of it?..... The courts will have to decide, and since
you had
a collision and had a running engine which may or may not have been
immediately
available, figure you'll share the blame.

Shen

Subject: night sailing - too close for comfort.
From: "Jonathan Ganz"
Date: 08/15/2004 22:21 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

I agree, but I don't think I'd want to try and argue if the CG determines
it was on. How do I prove it wasn't being used to propel the boat?


G Let's carry this a step further. You have a sailboat with an engine fitted,
that is not running, and you have a collision.
How do you prove that it was not running and being used for propulsion?
I think (and here we'd need a Maritime Lawyer's input) it would be on the
shoulders of the CG (or whomever) to prove you were using the engine to propel
the boat.

Shen

Now, having said that, have a collision ..... was your engine running? Was
it
immediately available for use? Could it's use have changed the outcome?
Should
you have made use of it?....

I would imagine the same rule should apply as the reefing rule....if you
think maybe, then do it or it will be too late....
--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein



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