Its pretty clear the jax has never sailed in these waters ...
"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
gf, that is a crock of squat.

a.) no barge coming out from under the Throgs Neck is heading *east* at least
until it nears City Island a couple miles to the northeast, and


The Throgs Neck Bridge is almost exactly North/South, and the channel is almost
exactly East/West. The tow may have begun to turn North, but is essentially
heading East as it passes under the bridge. And regardless of the exact
heading, vessels in the area would be described as "eastbound" or "westbound."


b.) there is no ships traffic on western LIS except for
veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery occasionally, and

I've been through there a half dozen times in the last few years and have
encountered traffic each time. I was at King's Point last weekend and saw
commercial traffic go by.



c.) commercial traffic on that part of the Sound is limited to about 7 knots.

*if* you missed seeing an approaching barge you were asleep for quite some
time.

Unless, of course, it was hidden by Throgs Neck.

Of course, at 7 knots a mile goes by in less than 9 minutes.


don't give up your day job. fiction writing is not likely to make you any
money for the foreable future.

Hey jaxie, are you still claiming you sail nearby? Very doubtful, jaxie.



From: "gonefishiing"
Date: 8/15/2004 4:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

out for a late night sail last week, which i do a lot of.
western edge of long island sound, ny
on a port tack heading southwest towards the throgs neck bridge.
slack tide.
particulary dark night.
full main and jib set
15 knots wind

keeping a vigilant eye out for ships, i spot a black form against the lights
of the city in front of me and realize it is a tug and barge and i also
realize (in the absence of visible nav lights) his small profile means he is
headed right at me and steaming.

i decide to tack the boat around 180 degrees and give him some
room........assuming (correctly) his course has 2 possiblities--he is going
to continue eastbound in the sound or he is going to turn north towards
eastchester bay to anchor his barge (partial mistake no.1?). he turns
northeast towards the barge anchorage, paralleling my course and i am east
of him and the barge anchorage- out of his way.

towards the east i spot another ship (freighter) steaming westbound for the
gate. he is north of the lane that most of the commerical ships take for the
bridge. and a quick visual calculation tells me i can cross his bow without
problem and also because he needs to turn behind my stern to set his course
for the bridge (and soon!) (partial mistake no.2?)

they are both aware that i am here-- million candle power lights
illuminating sails had a way of doing that. (my light)

1: the freighter, westbound, is not turning although i have crossed his
bow--only slightly and he'll end up passing beyond me, far too close and
moving fast.
2: the tug/barge decides to steer a circle around the barge anchorage and
end up eastbound again --off my port beam and close enough that i can see
the pilot. he has slowed down significantly at this point as i am now
between both vessels. (on a starboard tack)

3: they both passed "safely" at my stern, to the south of me the freigher
first, the tug next.

this was really too close for comfort, and i had my hands full sailing.
not to negate my responsiblity, i think constrained by draft here is a
relative term, if it even applies. they each had a mile of room to the south
(behind me) to manuveur and cannot understand why they would choose to
approach so closely, as my actions were clear, my course was appropriate and
consistent and meant to give each a wide berth

and for whatever it may be worth, i think everyone took the correct actions
i believe i was the stand on vessel
the freighter was 2nd in pecking order
the tug/barge gave way

what would you have done differently?

gf.

gf, knock it off. you ain't NEVER gonna make it as a fiction writer.

From: "gonefishiing"
Date: 8/15/2004 6:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

agreed: for the sake of safety, i always stay away from bigger vessels and
did so on this sail as well, until the tug/barge (TUB) changed course for
the
final time. i was certain i was ok with both vessels until the barge circled
around and was pointing at me again leaving me no evasive action to take.

neither vessel produced any indication of warning that i was in the way
(lights / horn)

agreed again: i realize i should have hailed them on the radio and asked for
they're intentions long before events became close.
definitely mistake no.1.
Sometimes i do this, sometimes i don't. it has always been a simple
assesment of whether i believe i will be out of the way. and i did believe
this.
monitoring channel 13 for security calls is also something that i usually do
at night.
this night i did not.

the engine was started and idling by in case i needed it.
in regards to avoiding a collision, given the speed differentials of the
vessels, i don't believe the engine would have made any difference in this
situation.
in regards to the regs: it would have converted me to a vessel under power
and i think (?) changed my status to some extent in relation to the 2 other
vessels. not that my decision was based on that or that it really does not
matter once fiberglass contacts steel.
the point being i was making good speed in good wind.

given that the tug/barge changed course twice: was he obligated to give way?
or is this a "fluid" problem that needs to be constantly reassessed?--which
means always stay out of his way no matter what courses he chooses?
felt like a cat and mouse sort of thing.

as a technical point: their seems to be a difference between an inablitiy to
maneuver because of draft, in a particular direction--versus the general
maneuverablity of a vessel because of length/speed/wieght.
i am not sure these 2 issues are connected by the regs.
as i understand it, constrained by draft is designed to prevent a vessel
from running aground.
in this regard there was no danger to the freighter who had plenty of room
to the south, which was his general route.
the tub could not turn towards the north to cross in front of me because of
draft and speed issues, and he could not turn south because of the
freighter, which left him pointed at me.

my guess is not i or the freighter anticipated a circling tub.





"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Not knowing the area, I have a couple of comments.

I'm not sure you were stand on, given that if there is
any doubt about draft constraint. Also, a tug and
a barge have status in most cases, but again, I don't
know the area.

Also, why not hail them and ask their intentions?

Finally, while sailing does give you stand on status
in many circumstances, it also limits your ability to
take evasive action. Perhaps it would have been
prudent to start the engine?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"gonefishiing" wrote in message
...
out for a late night sail last week, which i do a lot of.
western edge of long island sound, ny
on a port tack heading southwest towards the throgs neck bridge.
slack tide.
particulary dark night.
full main and jib set
15 knots wind

keeping a vigilant eye out for ships, i spot a black form against the
lights
of the city in front of me and realize it is a tug and barge and i also
realize (in the absence of visible nav lights) his small profile means
he
is
headed right at me and steaming.

i decide to tack the boat around 180 degrees and give him some
room........assuming (correctly) his course has 2 possiblities--he is
going
to continue eastbound in the sound or he is going to turn north towards
eastchester bay to anchor his barge (partial mistake no.1?). he turns
northeast towards the barge anchorage, paralleling my course and i am
east
of him and the barge anchorage- out of his way.

towards the east i spot another ship (freighter) steaming westbound for
the
gate. he is north of the lane that most of the commerical ships take for
the
bridge. and a quick visual calculation tells me i can cross his bow
without
problem and also because he needs to turn behind my stern to set his
course
for the bridge (and soon!) (partial mistake no.2?)

they are both aware that i am here-- million candle power lights
illuminating sails had a way of doing that. (my light)

1: the freighter, westbound, is not turning although i have crossed his
bow--only slightly and he'll end up passing beyond me, far too close and
moving fast.
2: the tug/barge decides to steer a circle around the barge anchorage
and
end up eastbound again --off my port beam and close enough that i can
see
the pilot. he has slowed down significantly at this point as i am now
between both vessels. (on a starboard tack)

3: they both passed "safely" at my stern, to the south of me the
freigher
first, the tug next.

this was really too close for comfort, and i had my hands full sailing.
not to negate my responsiblity, i think constrained by draft here is a
relative term, if it even applies. they each had a mile of room to the
south
(behind me) to manuveur and cannot understand why they would choose to
approach so closely, as my actions were clear, my course was appropriate
and
consistent and meant to give each a wide berth

and for whatever it may be worth, i think everyone took the correct
actions
i believe i was the stand on vessel
the freighter was 2nd in pecking order
the tug/barge gave way

what would you have done differently?

gf.

in our neck of the woods we have a fair amount of large
commercial vessels, mainly freighters,

but your neck of the woods isn't western LIS. "large commercial vessels" and
freighters are uncommon, moving slowing when they are there, are well lit, are
not the least bit shy in sounding their horns, travel in highly predictable
paths, freighter NEVER go into the area where the two barge buoys are, etc.
etc. etc.

gf was fictionalizing.

I don't suppose you have a reference for that. I know SF has a large restricted
area, but I've never seen anything that gives tows status above freighters
except the RAM rule.



"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
That's not true on the SF bay. Tugs with barges have stand on.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Not knowing the area, I have a couple of comments.

I'm not sure you were stand on, given that if there is
any doubt about draft constraint. Also, a tug and
a barge have status in most cases, but again, I don't
know the area.

The tow has no special status unless it declares itself a RAM (Restricted
Ability to Maneuver) and displays the appropraite lights in addition to
the tow
lights..

The tow has no special status unless it declares itself a RAM (Restricted
Ability to Maneuver) and displays the appropraite lights in addition to the
tow
lights..


tugs with tow on LIS display the correct running lights at night. There are
enough CG boats around to ensure that.

That's not true on the SF bay. Tugs with barges have stand on.


they do on LIS as well.

jeffies, it is my sailing waters for the last 12 years.

Its pretty clear the jax has never sailed in these waters ...
"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
gf, that is a crock of squat.

a.) no barge coming out from under the Throgs Neck is heading *east* at
least
until it nears City Island a couple miles to the northeast, and


The Throgs Neck Bridge is almost exactly North/South, and the channel is
almost
exactly East/West. The tow may have begun to turn North, but is essentially
heading East as it passes under the bridge. And regardless of the exact
heading, vessels in the area would be described as "eastbound" or
"westbound."


b.) there is no ships traffic on western LIS except for
veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery occasionally, and

I've been through there a half dozen times in the last few years and have
encountered traffic each time. I was at King's Point last weekend and saw
commercial traffic go by.



c.) commercial traffic on that part of the Sound is limited to about 7
knots.

*if* you missed seeing an approaching barge you were asleep for quite some
time.

Unless, of course, it was hidden by Throgs Neck.

Of course, at 7 knots a mile goes by in less than 9 minutes.


don't give up your day job. fiction writing is not likely to make you any
money for the foreable future.

Hey jaxie, are you still claiming you sail nearby? Very doubtful, jaxie.



From: "gonefishiing"
Date: 8/15/2004 4:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

out for a late night sail last week, which i do a lot of.
western edge of long island sound, ny
on a port tack heading southwest towards the throgs neck bridge.
slack tide.
particulary dark night.
full main and jib set
15 knots wind

keeping a vigilant eye out for ships, i spot a black form against the
lights
of the city in front of me and realize it is a tug and barge and i also
realize (in the absence of visible nav lights) his small profile means he
is
headed right at me and steaming.

i decide to tack the boat around 180 degrees and give him some
room........assuming (correctly) his course has 2 possiblities--he is
going
to continue eastbound in the sound or he is going to turn north towards
eastchester bay to anchor his barge (partial mistake no.1?). he turns
northeast towards the barge anchorage, paralleling my course and i am east
of him and the barge anchorage- out of his way.

towards the east i spot another ship (freighter) steaming westbound for
the
gate. he is north of the lane that most of the commerical ships take for
the
bridge. and a quick visual calculation tells me i can cross his bow
without
problem and also because he needs to turn behind my stern to set his
course
for the bridge (and soon!) (partial mistake no.2?)

they are both aware that i am here-- million candle power lights
illuminating sails had a way of doing that. (my light)

1: the freighter, westbound, is not turning although i have crossed his
bow--only slightly and he'll end up passing beyond me, far too close and
moving fast.
2: the tug/barge decides to steer a circle around the barge anchorage and
end up eastbound again --off my port beam and close enough that i can see
the pilot. he has slowed down significantly at this point as i am now
between both vessels. (on a starboard tack)

3: they both passed "safely" at my stern, to the south of me the freigher
first, the tug next.

this was really too close for comfort, and i had my hands full sailing.
not to negate my responsiblity, i think constrained by draft here is a
relative term, if it even applies. they each had a mile of room to the
south
(behind me) to manuveur and cannot understand why they would choose to
approach so closely, as my actions were clear, my course was appropriate
and
consistent and meant to give each a wide berth

and for whatever it may be worth, i think everyone took the correct
actions
i believe i was the stand on vessel
the freighter was 2nd in pecking order
the tug/barge gave way

what would you have done differently?

gf.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
jeffies, it is my sailing waters for the last 12 years.

You claim that but then prove yourself a liar by not knowing which way the TN
bridge goes. Admit it, jaxie, you've never actually been on a boat, have you?

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
"(b) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall
not impede the passage of a vessel that can safely navigate only
within a narrow channel or fairway."

there is NO narrow channel anywhere between eastern LIS and the Throgs Neck
Bridge at the western end. There IS a marked channel (wide) in several
places,
and there IS a marker buoy in deep water just about the TN Bridge, but that is
it.


Its a good thing you don't actually sail, jaxie, you'd be a hazard to everyone!

The approach to the TN Bridge is most certainly a "Narrow Channel" for some
vessels. Its a bit over 600 yards, which means that the "lane" in each
direction is about 200 yards. Are you claiming that all vessels that pass
through there can easily maneuver around any small boat traffic? Can you tell
which vessels can't in the dark? Forcing a tow to make a serious alteration of
speed or course would certainly be considered "impeding" if anything went wrong.

cannot understand why they would choose to
approach so closely..

Same reason why a dog licks its' butt...because they can....
--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein



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