Or sailed at night.

"Jeff Morris" wrote

Its pretty clear the jax has never sailed in these waters ...

"JAXAshby" wrote

gf, that is a crock of squat.

JAXAshby wrote:
gf, that is a crock of squat.

a.) no barge coming out from under the Throgs Neck is heading *east* at least
until it nears City Island a couple miles to the northeast, and

b.) there is no ships traffic on western LIS except for
veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery occasionally, and

G Considering your only occasional underway time and fact that you
spend most in the galley, it's not surprising you rarely see commercial
traffic there, Doodles

c.) commercial traffic on that part of the Sound is limited to about 7 knots.

Says who?

*if* you missed seeing an approaching barge you were asleep for quite some
time.

BG don't get out on the water too much at night, do you Doodles


otn

What to do differently? Hail them on the radio - that's what its for. You
should at least have been monitoring 13 - they were probably talking about you.

As for who had "right of way" (not that anyone actually has ROW), you were the
"standon" vessel, but that status is overridden by your responsibility under
Rule 9, Narrow Channels:

"(b) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall
not impede the passage of a vessel that can safely navigate only
within a narrow channel or fairway."

The meaning of "shall not impede" is vague - technically it means you have to
allow them a clear path to get around, but in the dark, and given that you can't
really anticipate their needs, you should consider the other vessels effectively
standon and stay well clear.

The phrase "constrained by draft" does not appear in the Inland Rules and has no
bearing here. And unless I missed something, why would you claim the freighter
was ahead of the tow on a pecking order? They are both power vessels, meeting
more of less head on. Or did they end up in a crossing situation? Probably
they negociated this on VHF 13.




"gonefishiing" wrote in message
...
out for a late night sail last week, which i do a lot of.
western edge of long island sound, ny
on a port tack heading southwest towards the throgs neck bridge.
slack tide.
particulary dark night.
full main and jib set
15 knots wind

keeping a vigilant eye out for ships, i spot a black form against the lights
of the city in front of me and realize it is a tug and barge and i also
realize (in the absence of visible nav lights) his small profile means he is
headed right at me and steaming.

i decide to tack the boat around 180 degrees and give him some
room........assuming (correctly) his course has 2 possiblities--he is going
to continue eastbound in the sound or he is going to turn north towards
eastchester bay to anchor his barge (partial mistake no.1?). he turns
northeast towards the barge anchorage, paralleling my course and i am east
of him and the barge anchorage- out of his way.

towards the east i spot another ship (freighter) steaming westbound for the
gate. he is north of the lane that most of the commerical ships take for the
bridge. and a quick visual calculation tells me i can cross his bow without
problem and also because he needs to turn behind my stern to set his course
for the bridge (and soon!) (partial mistake no.2?)

they are both aware that i am here-- million candle power lights
illuminating sails had a way of doing that. (my light)

1: the freighter, westbound, is not turning although i have crossed his
bow--only slightly and he'll end up passing beyond me, far too close and
moving fast.
2: the tug/barge decides to steer a circle around the barge anchorage and
end up eastbound again --off my port beam and close enough that i can see
the pilot. he has slowed down significantly at this point as i am now
between both vessels. (on a starboard tack)

3: they both passed "safely" at my stern, to the south of me the freigher
first, the tug next.

this was really too close for comfort, and i had my hands full sailing.
not to negate my responsiblity, i think constrained by draft here is a
relative term, if it even applies. they each had a mile of room to the south
(behind me) to manuveur and cannot understand why they would choose to
approach so closely, as my actions were clear, my course was appropriate and
consistent and meant to give each a wide berth

and for whatever it may be worth, i think everyone took the correct actions
i believe i was the stand on vessel
the freighter was 2nd in pecking order
the tug/barge gave way

what would you have done differently?

gf.

On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 18:26:22 -0400, "Jeff Morris"
wrote this crap:

What to do differently? Hail them on the radio - that's what its for. You
should at least have been monitoring 13 - they were probably talking about you.


I think you mean channel 16.





Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!

Horvath wrote:
On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 18:26:22 -0400, "Jeff Morris"
wrote this crap:


What to do differently? Hail them on the radio - that's what its for. You
should at least have been monitoring 13 - they were probably talking about you.



I think you mean channel 16.





Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!

Bet he responds in the negative

No you idiot. He means 13.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Horvath" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 18:26:22 -0400, "Jeff Morris"
wrote this crap:

What to do differently? Hail them on the radio - that's what its for.
You
should at least have been monitoring 13 - they were probably talking
about you.


I think you mean channel 16.





Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!

The idiot backs up to moor off.... what can you expect from this dunce....
at least he's got one brain cell... which is one more than Loco!

CM

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
| No you idiot. He means 13.
|
| --
| "j" ganz @@
| www.sailnow.com
|
| "Horvath" wrote in message
| news | On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 18:26:22 -0400, "Jeff Morris"
| wrote this crap:
|
| What to do differently? Hail them on the radio - that's what its for.
| You
| should at least have been monitoring 13 - they were probably talking
| about you.
|
|
| I think you mean channel 16.
|
|
|
|
|
| Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!
|
|

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 21:16:29 -0300, "Capt. Mooron"
wrote this crap:

The idiot backs up to moor off.... what can you expect from this dunce....
at least he's got one brain cell... which is one more than Loco!

CM
|
| What to do differently? Hail them on the radio - that's what its for.
| You
| should at least have been monitoring 13 - they were probably talking
| about you.
|
|
| I think you mean channel 16.




Maintaining a Watch on Channel 16
All vessels must guard, maintain a watch on, and listen to Channel 16.


Channel 16 is a calling and emergency channel. DO NOT HAVE
CONVERSATIONS ON THIS CHANNEL. The only exception is the Coast Guard
when working a MAYDAY.

Channel 16 is very busy, so don't use it unless there is an emergency.
ALWAYS listen before you key your microphone. After you are sure
you're not going to "step" on anyone, you can make your call. Do not
blow into the mic., just make your call. Your initial call to a boat
cannot exceed 30 seconds.



http://www.sailnow.com/sail/vhf.html








Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!

On Sun, 15 Aug 2004, "gonefishiing" wrote:
[i]
[In an near commercial shipping lanes on the
L.I.S.] out for a late night sail last week, which
i do a lot . . . . i spot a . . . tug and barge and . . .
realize . . . he is headed right at me and steaming.
* * * [Soon thereafter] i spot another ship
(freighter) steaming [more or less parallel to me]
and a quick visual calculation tells me i can cross
his bow without problem and also because [if he
is going where i speculate] he needs to turn behind
my stern . . . .

[ SNIPPED: ruminations about having "assum[ed]"
might do depending on "possibilities" about the poster
further speculates the freighter would "need" to
do, if his guess about the possibilites he made was
correct. ]

[As it turned out] they passed "safely" at my stern,
. . . . [but] really too close for comfort . . . .

not to negate my responsiblity, i think constrained
by draft here is a relative term, if it even applies.
they each had a mile of room . . . behind me . . . to
manuveur and cannot understand why they would
choose to approach so closely, as my actions were
clear, my course was appropriate and consistent and
meant to give each a wide berth . . . . and for
whatever it may be worth, i think everyone took
the correct actions i believe i was the stand on vessel
the freighter was 2nd in pecking order the tug/barge
gave way

what would you have done differently?

This is essentially the classic "no brainer" with the better and
anyway more important question is what ought you have done
differently:

Especially for folks who sail "a lot" (whether day or night) in the
area to which you refer -- unless, based on very careful and very well
experienced supported observation, it is _very_ clear that the smaller
sailboat will certainly be able to avoid collision assuming _not_ what
you did but, instead, that the tug/barge and freigher are and will
turn onto and (despite shinging a bright flash-light on one's sails)
will remain on a direct/collision course -- your attempt to "assume"
what the other vessels will do based on what you believed to be
"possibilities" in light of what you legalistically argue to be a
"relative" rule is, to put it politely, nuts.

To the contrary, _regardless_ what the printed rule may appear to say,
it is plain from the above that, though you escaped disaster, you
certainly do here attempt to "negate [your] responsibility" because
there is a much simpler "rule" (albeit of real-life - and, sometimes,
of [otherwise avoidable] death, even if not clearly published by the
USCG or in "Sailing for Idiots" and it is simply this:

Except for the above-noted qualificationk sailboats ought take action
(and also: responsiblity) to stay out of the way of on-coming
tugs/barges and freighters, especially when (as you say occurred for
you) they appear to be within two miles away, EVEN IF they do not
clearly appear to be on-coming. I.e., PRESUME that they are out to
kill you, then take the appropriate evasive action. Its pretty
simple. Andeven (and, perhaps especially) on "dark nights" pretty
clear. And simple.


Granted, in the L.I.S. area to which you refer, some sailers behave
otherwise and, apparently especially on Wed. or Thurs. racing nights,
occasonally challenges the tug/barge or freigher (with resulting
whistle-blowing and frustrated commercial captains screaming on the
VHF). But for those who want to continue to sail "a lot" at night
(and, for that matter, during the day) in that area, the better
"assumption" for you would have been your answer to the question:

If both other boats do not see me (even if I believe they do see me)
and if both also alter their course so that they will be headed
directly for me if I don't alter my course, where in light of what I
do see ought I go to avoid a collision?

Rule of Tonnage.


SV

rambled on incessantly...

Granted, in the L.I.S. area to which you refer, some sailers behave
otherwise and, apparently especially on Wed. or Thurs. racing
nights,
occasonally challenges the tug/barge or freigher (with resulting
whistle-blowing and frustrated commercial captains screaming on the
VHF). But for those who want to continue to sail "a lot" at night
(and, for that matter, during the day) in that area, the better
"assumption" for you would have been your answer to the question:

If both other boats do not see me (even if I believe they do see me)
and if both also alter their course so that they will be headed
directly for me if I don't alter my course, where in light of what I
do see ought I go to avoid a collision?