The Captains Master wrote:

Cappy tell me what you know about VMG.

The only thing the Craptoon knows about VMG is that he doesn't like
British sports cars

DSK

How about some real negatives for catamarans. I can think
of several.

1. They are easily overloaded. It looks like you can put all
your crap on them, but looks are deceiving.. unless you plan
on sitting at the dock all of the time. Put your crap in storage
or sell it and go sailing.

2. You need to learn how to reef and do it! Typical example.
We're sailing on a Seawind 1000 in the bay. People are chatting,
eating lunch, having some champagne (really!). They put their
drinks down and use the head or whatever, and when they
return. The champagne glass is still where they put it. I'm driving,
tweaking the sails, giving some small lesson in this or that, not
really paying all that much attention to the wind or conditions.
Then, I notice that there are really a lot of white caps. Yikes,
the wind speed (true not apparent) is well over 30kts. In fact,
I'm seeing gusts to 35. We've got the fully battened main up
all the way! Time to reef... glad we did. The boat seemed to
be handling it well, but I'm glad I didn't wait. Sailing a cat
can be deceptive... you have to watch the conditions and
react early.

3. You have to know how to anchor and there are specific
differences between cats and monos. Cats require a bridle
to anchor or moor properly. Typically, the bridle should be
all set up and ready to go well before you need it, so you
don't have to fumble around.

4. You need to be more in tune with the environment when
sailing a cat. There is virtually no heel, so it's hard to tell
if the boat is sailing optimally. There is much less of a "groove,"
so you have to really get the feel of sailing them before you
can do it in a serious way.

5. Tacking can be more difficult if you're not used to it. Quick
tacks from a beam reach won't work well or at all. You need
to "sneak up on it," then turn decisively. Beginners tend to stall
the boat during tacks. You have to learn to let the boat do the
work and how to get out of irons. It's different on a cat vs. a
mono. Typical example... I was again on the SW1000 only
this time it was third or fourth time. We tacked and the boat
stalled in irons during the tack. We were doing well over 10 kts
until that moment. We just waited a few seconds, the boat started
to back, I eased the main and off we went on the new tack...
back to 10 kts in short order. In some respects it was a faster
turn than sneaking up on it and tacking, but it is a strange feeling
to have a boat stop, then shoot off like a rocket from a standing
start.

Other real ones?

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
More downsides:

1) It won't go to weather worth a crap

Not true. They pretty much match monos. Not all monos, but you
don't need to point high most of the time anyway. You can go faster
slightly off the wind and get there first.

2) It's uglier than sin

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

3) If your built-in generator takes a crap you're out of commission

Why's that?

4) It'll capsize and stay capsized and it can and will sink

True, true, and false. Cat's don't sink.

5) It's a pain in the butt to anchor

Easy as pie. I've never had trouble. You can ground it to work on
it. You don't need a huge anchor, chrome or otherwise, to hold,
since the weight isn't that great.

6) Two motors equals twice the headaches

And half the worries. If one dies, you've got a backup. We were
in Belize with no wind one day, one engine was sounding strange,
so without missing a beat, we turned it off, pulled it up, had a look,
found the problem, put it back down, and started it. Never missed
beat. Also had one die on me in the Sauslito channel right in front
of a brig that was trying to dock.. lot's of traffic behind. It was still
easy to motor out of the way, then we futzed with it and started it
up again. I ended up docking without it anyway, since it kept dying.
Not a big deal.

7) It's a better motorboat than a sailboat

It's a better motorboat than a mono if you need it to be.

8) It's way way way too expensive for what you get

It's expensive... damn true.

9) Did I say it's uglier than sin?

No.

10) Real cruisers will laugh at you and won't want to be
anywhere near you in an anchorage. It's a case of
"Oops! there goes the neighborhood!"

BS. They appreciate the accomodations and usually have
a million questions about how it sails and handles.

S.Simon

"NH_/)_" wrote in message
...
papers on the trust are taking longer than expected.
So while we wait, I am grabbing all knowledge that I can
from this and other groups, sites and such, so when the funds
come in, we know what we want. and the cat right now is
lurking top choice.

Reasons
1 will flip ...but does not sink
2 more room
3 sails in shallow water
4 more stable on the water

Down side

1 Costs are high
the one we are looking at costs 300K
we only have 140K right now so we have to
wait for the trust to come available.

2 mooring can be more difficult--finding room


NH_/)_


"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
Cats are looking to be a nice choice in the 38-40ft range

You still haven't bought a boat?
You probably never will.

RB

I was curious about your "bridle" comment. My boat has a roller on each bow and thus gets
bridled from the opposite bow. I've experimented with several fancy methods, but now I
just tie a rolling hitch with a dockline. A spare line stays on the bow for this purpose.
I've tried using a "slippery" rolling hitch, but on occasion its fallen out - the standard
knot has always held. Without the bridle the boat sits cocked to the wind. This is OK
(for a short time)for anchoring, but on my boat a mooring pennant will rub against the
anchor, so I have to bridle quickly.

The time to setup, or recover the bridle is short, maybe a few minutes. It is, however, a
pain if its coupled with resetting the anchor, so I'll usually wait 10 minutes before
bridling to make sure we're set and in the right place. Double anchoring raises the pain
level, since both anchors should be bridled. If the boat spins in the night the result
can be (as one friend calls it) a "chocolate mess." However, as long as its only one or
two twists it isn't too bad.

As I've mentioned before, a major advantage of the bridle is that it eliminates chafe,
because it moves the pivot point of the rode to where the bridle connects. There is very
little movement of the rode in the roller or chock.

Some cats have the rode coming out under the center of the foredeck. If there is limited
access, this can be a serious problem. One cat reviewer, Chuck Kanter, considers this a
fatal flaw in some cats.



"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
How about some real negatives for catamarans. I can think
of several.

1. They are easily overloaded. It looks like you can put all
your crap on them, but looks are deceiving.. unless you plan
on sitting at the dock all of the time. Put your crap in storage
or sell it and go sailing.

2. You need to learn how to reef and do it! Typical example.
We're sailing on a Seawind 1000 in the bay. People are chatting,
eating lunch, having some champagne (really!). They put their
drinks down and use the head or whatever, and when they
return. The champagne glass is still where they put it. I'm driving,
tweaking the sails, giving some small lesson in this or that, not
really paying all that much attention to the wind or conditions.
Then, I notice that there are really a lot of white caps. Yikes,
the wind speed (true not apparent) is well over 30kts. In fact,
I'm seeing gusts to 35. We've got the fully battened main up
all the way! Time to reef... glad we did. The boat seemed to
be handling it well, but I'm glad I didn't wait. Sailing a cat
can be deceptive... you have to watch the conditions and
react early.

3. You have to know how to anchor and there are specific
differences between cats and monos. Cats require a bridle
to anchor or moor properly. Typically, the bridle should be
all set up and ready to go well before you need it, so you
don't have to fumble around.

4. You need to be more in tune with the environment when
sailing a cat. There is virtually no heel, so it's hard to tell
if the boat is sailing optimally. There is much less of a "groove,"
so you have to really get the feel of sailing them before you
can do it in a serious way.

5. Tacking can be more difficult if you're not used to it. Quick
tacks from a beam reach won't work well or at all. You need
to "sneak up on it," then turn decisively. Beginners tend to stall
the boat during tacks. You have to learn to let the boat do the
work and how to get out of irons. It's different on a cat vs. a
mono. Typical example... I was again on the SW1000 only
this time it was third or fourth time. We tacked and the boat
stalled in irons during the tack. We were doing well over 10 kts
until that moment. We just waited a few seconds, the boat started
to back, I eased the main and off we went on the new tack...
back to 10 kts in short order. In some respects it was a faster
turn than sneaking up on it and tacking, but it is a strange feeling
to have a boat stop, then shoot off like a rocket from a standing
start.

Other real ones?

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
More downsides:

1) It won't go to weather worth a crap

Not true. They pretty much match monos. Not all monos, but you
don't need to point high most of the time anyway. You can go faster
slightly off the wind and get there first.

2) It's uglier than sin

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

3) If your built-in generator takes a crap you're out of commission

Why's that?

4) It'll capsize and stay capsized and it can and will sink

True, true, and false. Cat's don't sink.

5) It's a pain in the butt to anchor

Easy as pie. I've never had trouble. You can ground it to work on
it. You don't need a huge anchor, chrome or otherwise, to hold,
since the weight isn't that great.

6) Two motors equals twice the headaches

And half the worries. If one dies, you've got a backup. We were
in Belize with no wind one day, one engine was sounding strange,
so without missing a beat, we turned it off, pulled it up, had a look,
found the problem, put it back down, and started it. Never missed
beat. Also had one die on me in the Sauslito channel right in front
of a brig that was trying to dock.. lot's of traffic behind. It was still
easy to motor out of the way, then we futzed with it and started it
up again. I ended up docking without it anyway, since it kept dying.
Not a big deal.

7) It's a better motorboat than a sailboat

It's a better motorboat than a mono if you need it to be.

8) It's way way way too expensive for what you get

It's expensive... damn true.

9) Did I say it's uglier than sin?

No.

10) Real cruisers will laugh at you and won't want to be
anywhere near you in an anchorage. It's a case of
"Oops! there goes the neighborhood!"

BS. They appreciate the accomodations and usually have
a million questions about how it sails and handles.

S.Simon

"NH_/)_" wrote in message
...
papers on the trust are taking longer than expected.
So while we wait, I am grabbing all knowledge that I can
from this and other groups, sites and such, so when the funds
come in, we know what we want. and the cat right now is
lurking top choice.

Reasons
1 will flip ...but does not sink
2 more room
3 sails in shallow water
4 more stable on the water

Down side

1 Costs are high
the one we are looking at costs 300K
we only have 140K right now so we have to
wait for the trust to come available.

2 mooring can be more difficult--finding room


NH_/)_


"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
Cats are looking to be a nice choice in the 38-40ft range

You still haven't bought a boat?
You probably never will.

RB

The boats I've been on haven't had rollers on the bows. They've
had them on the center line. I use the rolling hitch. Usually set it,
then deploy the bridle pretty quickly... same issue, reduce chafe.

"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
I was curious about your "bridle" comment. My boat has a roller on each
bow and thus gets
bridled from the opposite bow. I've experimented with several fancy
methods, but now I
just tie a rolling hitch with a dockline. A spare line stays on the bow
for this purpose.
I've tried using a "slippery" rolling hitch, but on occasion its fallen
out - the standard
knot has always held. Without the bridle the boat sits cocked to the
wind. This is OK
(for a short time)for anchoring, but on my boat a mooring pennant will rub
against the
anchor, so I have to bridle quickly.

The time to setup, or recover the bridle is short, maybe a few minutes.
It is, however, a
pain if its coupled with resetting the anchor, so I'll usually wait 10
minutes before
bridling to make sure we're set and in the right place. Double anchoring
raises the pain
level, since both anchors should be bridled. If the boat spins in the
night the result
can be (as one friend calls it) a "chocolate mess." However, as long as
its only one or
two twists it isn't too bad.

As I've mentioned before, a major advantage of the bridle is that it
eliminates chafe,
because it moves the pivot point of the rode to where the bridle connects.
There is very
little movement of the rode in the roller or chock.

Some cats have the rode coming out under the center of the foredeck. If
there is limited
access, this can be a serious problem. One cat reviewer, Chuck Kanter,
considers this a
fatal flaw in some cats.



"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
How about some real negatives for catamarans. I can think
of several.

1. They are easily overloaded. It looks like you can put all
your crap on them, but looks are deceiving.. unless you plan
on sitting at the dock all of the time. Put your crap in storage
or sell it and go sailing.

2. You need to learn how to reef and do it! Typical example.
We're sailing on a Seawind 1000 in the bay. People are chatting,
eating lunch, having some champagne (really!). They put their
drinks down and use the head or whatever, and when they
return. The champagne glass is still where they put it. I'm driving,
tweaking the sails, giving some small lesson in this or that, not
really paying all that much attention to the wind or conditions.
Then, I notice that there are really a lot of white caps. Yikes,
the wind speed (true not apparent) is well over 30kts. In fact,
I'm seeing gusts to 35. We've got the fully battened main up
all the way! Time to reef... glad we did. The boat seemed to
be handling it well, but I'm glad I didn't wait. Sailing a cat
can be deceptive... you have to watch the conditions and
react early.

3. You have to know how to anchor and there are specific
differences between cats and monos. Cats require a bridle
to anchor or moor properly. Typically, the bridle should be
all set up and ready to go well before you need it, so you
don't have to fumble around.

4. You need to be more in tune with the environment when
sailing a cat. There is virtually no heel, so it's hard to tell
if the boat is sailing optimally. There is much less of a "groove,"
so you have to really get the feel of sailing them before you
can do it in a serious way.

5. Tacking can be more difficult if you're not used to it. Quick
tacks from a beam reach won't work well or at all. You need
to "sneak up on it," then turn decisively. Beginners tend to stall
the boat during tacks. You have to learn to let the boat do the
work and how to get out of irons. It's different on a cat vs. a
mono. Typical example... I was again on the SW1000 only
this time it was third or fourth time. We tacked and the boat
stalled in irons during the tack. We were doing well over 10 kts
until that moment. We just waited a few seconds, the boat started
to back, I eased the main and off we went on the new tack...
back to 10 kts in short order. In some respects it was a faster
turn than sneaking up on it and tacking, but it is a strange feeling
to have a boat stop, then shoot off like a rocket from a standing
start.

Other real ones?

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
More downsides:

1) It won't go to weather worth a crap

Not true. They pretty much match monos. Not all monos, but you
don't need to point high most of the time anyway. You can go faster
slightly off the wind and get there first.

2) It's uglier than sin

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

3) If your built-in generator takes a crap you're out of commission

Why's that?

4) It'll capsize and stay capsized and it can and will sink

True, true, and false. Cat's don't sink.

5) It's a pain in the butt to anchor

Easy as pie. I've never had trouble. You can ground it to work on
it. You don't need a huge anchor, chrome or otherwise, to hold,
since the weight isn't that great.

6) Two motors equals twice the headaches

And half the worries. If one dies, you've got a backup. We were
in Belize with no wind one day, one engine was sounding strange,
so without missing a beat, we turned it off, pulled it up, had a look,
found the problem, put it back down, and started it. Never missed
beat. Also had one die on me in the Sauslito channel right in front
of a brig that was trying to dock.. lot's of traffic behind. It was
still
easy to motor out of the way, then we futzed with it and started it
up again. I ended up docking without it anyway, since it kept dying.
Not a big deal.

7) It's a better motorboat than a sailboat

It's a better motorboat than a mono if you need it to be.

8) It's way way way too expensive for what you get

It's expensive... damn true.

9) Did I say it's uglier than sin?

No.

10) Real cruisers will laugh at you and won't want to be
anywhere near you in an anchorage. It's a case of
"Oops! there goes the neighborhood!"

BS. They appreciate the accomodations and usually have
a million questions about how it sails and handles.

S.Simon

"NH_/)_" wrote in message
...
papers on the trust are taking longer than expected.
So while we wait, I am grabbing all knowledge that I can
from this and other groups, sites and such, so when the funds
come in, we know what we want. and the cat right now is
lurking top choice.

Reasons
1 will flip ...but does not sink
2 more room
3 sails in shallow water
4 more stable on the water

Down side

1 Costs are high
the one we are looking at costs 300K
we only have 140K right now so we have to
wait for the trust to come available.

2 mooring can be more difficult--finding room


NH_/)_


"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
Cats are looking to be a nice choice in the 38-40ft range

You still haven't bought a boat?
You probably never will.

RB

Jeff? most cats are special made right? I mean they are all diff.
made to order. or are they made by production standards?

yours was special made?

NH_/)_

"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
The big problem in defending the Catamaran side of the multi vs. mono
discussions is that
there are simply very few choices of cats in the low end. While there are
numerous
possibilities in monos for under $50K, the entry for multihulls is much
higher. For
instance, if you're looking for a cat less than 10 years old and over 32
feet, you might
get a Gemini for as low as $70, but a more seaworthy Prout would probably
be over $100k.

If you go back much further, you find cats that are not as well designed,
and have spent
too much time in the tropics under charter. On the other hand, there are
numerous
examples of well designed monohulls that are 20-30 years old and can be
had at very
reasonable prices.

However, if you're in the market for a newer boat, the modern cats are
more competitively
priced. For instance, 42 foot good mono, roughly 5 years old, will cost
between $150 and
$220, depending on the brand etc. You'll find roughly the same price
range in 36 foot
catamarans, which have the same space & speed, or more.

-jeff

"DSK" wrote in message
...

Except for a few Chris White designs, I have yet to see a cruising
cat that was designed for cruising (ie a small number of people
aboard long term) rather than chartering or weekend partying (not
that there's anything wrong with that).

Jeff Morris wrote:
Have you been on a newer PDQ36? They are certainly not built for
chartering, and a
large
number of owners have done extensive cruising.

I stand corrected.... Actually I have been on a couple of PDQs. Should
have said "most"
not
"all." The PDQ trawler cats are really nice too.



3 sails in shallow water

So will a properly designed mono.


Are you saying that any monohull with a draft over 3 feet is not
properlly designed?

From my point of view, and for most U.S. East Coast waters, yes. At
least it's all mud &
sand......


3 can't use a windvane


Why not?

Apparent wind varies tremendously (as it will on a fast monohull). A
windvane will often
make
such a boat bear away and speed up until it's 60 degrees off course,
then wander back
and
forth in that same range.



4 poor performance in chop (also very noisy)

So have a lot of monohulls. Yes, the noise can be dramatic, but a
varies a lot, cat
to
cat.

True. But I was thinking of speed & steering, not noise. What's a little
banging under
the
bridge deck? Although I have seen some cats with scuppers that would
fountain very
dramatically when a wave slapped underneath....


Can you name a few? I'll admit that you can get one or two of these
traits, and if
you're
willing to get an older boat you can do better with a monohull. But
if you're
comparing
newer boats I don't know what would fill your description.

How much newer? I was looking at boats in the 10 ~ 25 year old range.
The French seem to
build
a lot of centerboarders with good accomodations & good performance. Some
of the ones we
looked
at were aluminum, which isn't everybody's cup of tea.

I freely admit to being biased towards monohulls, and try to give honest
assessments of
boats
I have experience with. Jeff, I did give you credit in an earlier post
for the same
approach,
only biased the other way! There are a few really nice multis out there,
but the
compromises
seem (to me) to be a bit more extreme than with monohulls, and the costs
higher.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Not to jump on Jeff's toes, but there are many production cats
out there... many many. There are a lot of custom ones also.

Good point about the cost.. that's a definite negative. Also,
the inexpensive ones to be found have to be looked at very
carefully, as they may be fatally flawed during construction or
aging.

"NH_/)_" wrote in message
m...
Jeff? most cats are special made right? I mean they are all diff.
made to order. or are they made by production standards?

yours was special made?

NH_/)_

"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
The big problem in defending the Catamaran side of the multi vs. mono
discussions is that
there are simply very few choices of cats in the low end. While there
are
numerous
possibilities in monos for under $50K, the entry for multihulls is much
higher. For
instance, if you're looking for a cat less than 10 years old and over 32
feet, you might
get a Gemini for as low as $70, but a more seaworthy Prout would
probably
be over $100k.

If you go back much further, you find cats that are not as well
designed,
and have spent
too much time in the tropics under charter. On the other hand, there
are
numerous
examples of well designed monohulls that are 20-30 years old and can be
had at very
reasonable prices.

However, if you're in the market for a newer boat, the modern cats are
more competitively
priced. For instance, 42 foot good mono, roughly 5 years old, will cost
between $150 and
$220, depending on the brand etc. You'll find roughly the same price
range in 36 foot
catamarans, which have the same space & speed, or more.

-jeff

"DSK" wrote in message
...

Except for a few Chris White designs, I have yet to see a cruising
cat that was designed for cruising (ie a small number of people
aboard long term) rather than chartering or weekend partying (not
that there's anything wrong with that).

Jeff Morris wrote:
Have you been on a newer PDQ36? They are certainly not built for
chartering, and a
large
number of owners have done extensive cruising.

I stand corrected.... Actually I have been on a couple of PDQs. Should
have said "most"
not
"all." The PDQ trawler cats are really nice too.



3 sails in shallow water

So will a properly designed mono.


Are you saying that any monohull with a draft over 3 feet is not
properlly designed?

From my point of view, and for most U.S. East Coast waters, yes. At
least it's all mud &
sand......


3 can't use a windvane


Why not?

Apparent wind varies tremendously (as it will on a fast monohull). A
windvane will often
make
such a boat bear away and speed up until it's 60 degrees off course,
then wander back
and
forth in that same range.



4 poor performance in chop (also very noisy)

So have a lot of monohulls. Yes, the noise can be dramatic, but a
varies a lot, cat
to
cat.

True. But I was thinking of speed & steering, not noise. What's a
little
banging under
the
bridge deck? Although I have seen some cats with scuppers that would
fountain very
dramatically when a wave slapped underneath....


Can you name a few? I'll admit that you can get one or two of these
traits, and if
you're
willing to get an older boat you can do better with a monohull. But
if you're
comparing
newer boats I don't know what would fill your description.

How much newer? I was looking at boats in the 10 ~ 25 year old range.
The French seem to
build
a lot of centerboarders with good accomodations & good performance.
Some
of the ones we
looked
at were aluminum, which isn't everybody's cup of tea.

I freely admit to being biased towards monohulls, and try to give
honest
assessments of
boats
I have experience with. Jeff, I did give you credit in an earlier post
for the same
approach,
only biased the other way! There are a few really nice multis out
there,
but the
compromises
seem (to me) to be a bit more extreme than with monohulls, and the
costs
higher.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

My boat was "special made" but that is very different from being "custom made.". For
instance, the primary option was diesel or outboard (I chose diesel, and still wonder if
it was for the best.) Also, the smaller aft cabin comes completely unfinished, so there
is a wide variation there - the common choice is a desk and fold down berth. I got a
freezer and bunk. Others have a "dive den" or workbench.

After that comes the options that you'd see on most production boats - instrumentation,
cockpit canvas, stove top or oven, microwave, inverter, extra deck hardware, deck
washdown, windlass, fabric choices etc.. We had special instructions for the sailmaker;
we asked for extra handholds; we got a Lavac head. I researched microwaves a bit and
found one that was very efficient, so I asked for that. I found out they bought 5 of them
to get a better price, so that 4 other buyers had to live with my "customization." I
would have to say the majority of problems that we had were with non-standard
installations, such as the freezer and head.

The real issue is how many are made by the yard. When mine was built they were doing
about a dozen a year, so I had their attention for a month - actually it was a six month
process, but you know what I mean. A higher output yard means less extra customization
and less special attention.

BTW, the construction pictures on my web site were taken only a few hours after we made
the final commitment - they had started construction on "spec" and guessed they we (or
whoever would get it) would want the diesel. More often they have a backlog of up to a
year.

--
-jeff www.sv-loki.com
"The sea was angry that day, my friend. Like an old man trying to send back soup at the
deli."

P.S. One unique customization they did was a cat box built into a locker. Much
appreciated by the Feline-American members of the crew.


"NH_/)_" wrote in message
m...
Jeff? most cats are special made right? I mean they are all diff.
made to order. or are they made by production standards?

yours was special made?

NH_/)_

"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
The big problem in defending the Catamaran side of the multi vs. mono
discussions is that
there are simply very few choices of cats in the low end. While there are
numerous
possibilities in monos for under $50K, the entry for multihulls is much
higher. For
instance, if you're looking for a cat less than 10 years old and over 32
feet, you might
get a Gemini for as low as $70, but a more seaworthy Prout would probably
be over $100k.

If you go back much further, you find cats that are not as well designed,
and have spent
too much time in the tropics under charter. On the other hand, there are
numerous
examples of well designed monohulls that are 20-30 years old and can be
had at very
reasonable prices.

However, if you're in the market for a newer boat, the modern cats are
more competitively
priced. For instance, 42 foot good mono, roughly 5 years old, will cost
between $150 and
$220, depending on the brand etc. You'll find roughly the same price
range in 36 foot
catamarans, which have the same space & speed, or more.

-jeff

"DSK" wrote in message
...

Except for a few Chris White designs, I have yet to see a cruising
cat that was designed for cruising (ie a small number of people
aboard long term) rather than chartering or weekend partying (not
that there's anything wrong with that).

Jeff Morris wrote:
Have you been on a newer PDQ36? They are certainly not built for
chartering, and a
large
number of owners have done extensive cruising.

I stand corrected.... Actually I have been on a couple of PDQs. Should
have said "most"
not
"all." The PDQ trawler cats are really nice too.



3 sails in shallow water

So will a properly designed mono.


Are you saying that any monohull with a draft over 3 feet is not
properlly designed?

From my point of view, and for most U.S. East Coast waters, yes. At
least it's all mud &
sand......


3 can't use a windvane


Why not?

Apparent wind varies tremendously (as it will on a fast monohull). A
windvane will often
make
such a boat bear away and speed up until it's 60 degrees off course,
then wander back
and
forth in that same range.



4 poor performance in chop (also very noisy)

So have a lot of monohulls. Yes, the noise can be dramatic, but a
varies a lot, cat
to
cat.

True. But I was thinking of speed & steering, not noise. What's a little
banging under
the
bridge deck? Although I have seen some cats with scuppers that would
fountain very
dramatically when a wave slapped underneath....


Can you name a few? I'll admit that you can get one or two of these
traits, and if
you're
willing to get an older boat you can do better with a monohull. But
if you're
comparing
newer boats I don't know what would fill your description.

How much newer? I was looking at boats in the 10 ~ 25 year old range.
The French seem to
build
a lot of centerboarders with good accomodations & good performance. Some
of the ones we
looked
at were aluminum, which isn't everybody's cup of tea.

I freely admit to being biased towards monohulls, and try to give honest
assessments of
boats
I have experience with. Jeff, I did give you credit in an earlier post
for the same
approach,
only biased the other way! There are a few really nice multis out there,
but the
compromises
seem (to me) to be a bit more extreme than with monohulls, and the costs
higher.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

option was diesel or outboard (I chose diesel, and still wonder if
it was for the best.)

nice is there any reason why?

NH_/)_



"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
My boat was "special made" but that is very different from being "custom
made.". For
instance, the primary option was diesel or outboard (I chose diesel, and
still wonder if
it was for the best.) Also, the smaller aft cabin comes completely
unfinished, so there
is a wide variation there - the common choice is a desk and fold down
berth. I got a
freezer and bunk. Others have a "dive den" or workbench.

After that comes the options that you'd see on most production boats -
instrumentation,
cockpit canvas, stove top or oven, microwave, inverter, extra deck
hardware, deck
washdown, windlass, fabric choices etc.. We had special instructions for
the sailmaker;
we asked for extra handholds; we got a Lavac head. I researched
microwaves a bit and
found one that was very efficient, so I asked for that. I found out they
bought 5 of them
to get a better price, so that 4 other buyers had to live with my
"customization." I
would have to say the majority of problems that we had were with
non-standard
installations, such as the freezer and head.

The real issue is how many are made by the yard. When mine was built they
were doing
about a dozen a year, so I had their attention for a month - actually it
was a six month
process, but you know what I mean. A higher output yard means less extra
customization
and less special attention.

BTW, the construction pictures on my web site were taken only a few hours
after we made
the final commitment - they had started construction on "spec" and guessed
they we (or
whoever would get it) would want the diesel. More often they have a
backlog of up to a
year.

--
-jeff www.sv-loki.com
"The sea was angry that day, my friend. Like an old man trying to send
back soup at the
deli."

P.S. One unique customization they did was a cat box built into a locker.
Much
appreciated by the Feline-American members of the crew.


"NH_/)_" wrote in message
m...
Jeff? most cats are special made right? I mean they are all diff.
made to order. or are they made by production standards?

yours was special made?

NH_/)_

"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
The big problem in defending the Catamaran side of the multi vs. mono
discussions is that
there are simply very few choices of cats in the low end. While there
are
numerous
possibilities in monos for under $50K, the entry for multihulls is
much
higher. For
instance, if you're looking for a cat less than 10 years old and over
32
feet, you might
get a Gemini for as low as $70, but a more seaworthy Prout would
probably
be over $100k.

If you go back much further, you find cats that are not as well
designed,
and have spent
too much time in the tropics under charter. On the other hand, there
are
numerous
examples of well designed monohulls that are 20-30 years old and can
be
had at very
reasonable prices.

However, if you're in the market for a newer boat, the modern cats are
more competitively
priced. For instance, 42 foot good mono, roughly 5 years old, will
cost
between $150 and
$220, depending on the brand etc. You'll find roughly the same price
range in 36 foot
catamarans, which have the same space & speed, or more.

-jeff

"DSK" wrote in message
...

Except for a few Chris White designs, I have yet to see a
cruising
cat that was designed for cruising (ie a small number of people
aboard long term) rather than chartering or weekend partying
(not
that there's anything wrong with that).

Jeff Morris wrote:
Have you been on a newer PDQ36? They are certainly not built for
chartering, and a
large
number of owners have done extensive cruising.

I stand corrected.... Actually I have been on a couple of PDQs.
Should
have said "most"
not
"all." The PDQ trawler cats are really nice too.



3 sails in shallow water

So will a properly designed mono.


Are you saying that any monohull with a draft over 3 feet is not
properlly designed?

From my point of view, and for most U.S. East Coast waters, yes. At
least it's all mud &
sand......


3 can't use a windvane


Why not?

Apparent wind varies tremendously (as it will on a fast monohull). A
windvane will often
make
such a boat bear away and speed up until it's 60 degrees off course,
then wander back
and
forth in that same range.



4 poor performance in chop (also very noisy)

So have a lot of monohulls. Yes, the noise can be dramatic, but a
varies a lot, cat
to
cat.

True. But I was thinking of speed & steering, not noise. What's a
little
banging under
the
bridge deck? Although I have seen some cats with scuppers that would
fountain very
dramatically when a wave slapped underneath....


Can you name a few? I'll admit that you can get one or two of
these
traits, and if
you're
willing to get an older boat you can do better with a monohull.
But
if you're
comparing
newer boats I don't know what would fill your description.

How much newer? I was looking at boats in the 10 ~ 25 year old
range.
The French seem to
build
a lot of centerboarders with good accomodations & good performance.
Some
of the ones we
looked
at were aluminum, which isn't everybody's cup of tea.

I freely admit to being biased towards monohulls, and try to give
honest
assessments of
boats
I have experience with. Jeff, I did give you credit in an earlier
post
for the same
approach,
only biased the other way! There are a few really nice multis out
there,
but the
compromises
seem (to me) to be a bit more extreme than with monohulls, and the
costs
higher.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Your not answering me , I'm not Trolling LOL
just curious is all, My husband wants us to have diesel as well.

Thanks

NH_/)_

--
Nora_00112
ED ScamWatch
Senior Technical Officer

--------
http://nortech-cs.com/sailusa/index4.htm
"NH_/)_" wrote in message
m...
option was diesel or outboard (I chose diesel, and still wonder if
it was for the best.)

nice is there any reason why?

NH_/)_



"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
My boat was "special made" but that is very different from being "custom
made.". For
instance, the primary option was diesel or outboard (I chose diesel, and
still wonder if
it was for the best.) Also, the smaller aft cabin comes completely
unfinished, so there
is a wide variation there - the common choice is a desk and fold down
berth. I got a
freezer and bunk. Others have a "dive den" or workbench.

After that comes the options that you'd see on most production boats -
instrumentation,
cockpit canvas, stove top or oven, microwave, inverter, extra deck
hardware, deck
washdown, windlass, fabric choices etc.. We had special instructions
for
the sailmaker;
we asked for extra handholds; we got a Lavac head. I researched
microwaves a bit and
found one that was very efficient, so I asked for that. I found out
they
bought 5 of them
to get a better price, so that 4 other buyers had to live with my
"customization." I
would have to say the majority of problems that we had were with
non-standard
installations, such as the freezer and head.

The real issue is how many are made by the yard. When mine was built
they
were doing
about a dozen a year, so I had their attention for a month - actually it
was a six month
process, but you know what I mean. A higher output yard means less
extra
customization
and less special attention.

BTW, the construction pictures on my web site were taken only a few
hours
after we made
the final commitment - they had started construction on "spec" and
guessed
they we (or
whoever would get it) would want the diesel. More often they have a
backlog of up to a
year.

--
-jeff www.sv-loki.com
"The sea was angry that day, my friend. Like an old man trying to send
back soup at the
deli."

P.S. One unique customization they did was a cat box built into a
locker.
Much
appreciated by the Feline-American members of the crew.


"NH_/)_" wrote in message
m...
Jeff? most cats are special made right? I mean they are all diff.
made to order. or are they made by production standards?

yours was special made?

NH_/)_

"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
The big problem in defending the Catamaran side of the multi vs.
mono
discussions is that
there are simply very few choices of cats in the low end. While
there
are
numerous
possibilities in monos for under $50K, the entry for multihulls is
much
higher. For
instance, if you're looking for a cat less than 10 years old and
over
32
feet, you might
get a Gemini for as low as $70, but a more seaworthy Prout would
probably
be over $100k.

If you go back much further, you find cats that are not as well
designed,
and have spent
too much time in the tropics under charter. On the other hand,
there
are
numerous
examples of well designed monohulls that are 20-30 years old and can
be
had at very
reasonable prices.

However, if you're in the market for a newer boat, the modern cats
are
more competitively
priced. For instance, 42 foot good mono, roughly 5 years old, will
cost
between $150 and
$220, depending on the brand etc. You'll find roughly the same
price
range in 36 foot
catamarans, which have the same space & speed, or more.

-jeff

"DSK" wrote in message
...

Except for a few Chris White designs, I have yet to see a
cruising
cat that was designed for cruising (ie a small number of
people
aboard long term) rather than chartering or weekend partying
(not
that there's anything wrong with that).

Jeff Morris wrote:
Have you been on a newer PDQ36? They are certainly not built
for
chartering, and a
large
number of owners have done extensive cruising.

I stand corrected.... Actually I have been on a couple of PDQs.
Should
have said "most"
not
"all." The PDQ trawler cats are really nice too.



3 sails in shallow water

So will a properly designed mono.


Are you saying that any monohull with a draft over 3 feet is not
properlly designed?

From my point of view, and for most U.S. East Coast waters, yes.
At
least it's all mud &
sand......


3 can't use a windvane


Why not?

Apparent wind varies tremendously (as it will on a fast monohull).
A
windvane will often
make
such a boat bear away and speed up until it's 60 degrees off
course,
then wander back
and
forth in that same range.



4 poor performance in chop (also very noisy)

So have a lot of monohulls. Yes, the noise can be dramatic, but
a
varies a lot, cat
to
cat.

True. But I was thinking of speed & steering, not noise. What's a
little
banging under
the
bridge deck? Although I have seen some cats with scuppers that
would
fountain very
dramatically when a wave slapped underneath....


Can you name a few? I'll admit that you can get one or two of
these
traits, and if
you're
willing to get an older boat you can do better with a monohull.
But
if you're
comparing
newer boats I don't know what would fill your description.

How much newer? I was looking at boats in the 10 ~ 25 year old
range.
The French seem to
build
a lot of centerboarders with good accomodations & good
performance.
Some
of the ones we
looked
at were aluminum, which isn't everybody's cup of tea.

I freely admit to being biased towards monohulls, and try to give
honest
assessments of
boats
I have experience with. Jeff, I did give you credit in an earlier
post
for the same
approach,
only biased the other way! There are a few really nice multis out
there,
but the
compromises
seem (to me) to be a bit more extreme than with monohulls, and the
costs
higher.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Yes, I know what you mean. I worked at the Irwin Yacht
yard in Clearwater, FL for a year and we always hated it
when buyers came snooping around with their ignorant
suggestions and last-minute changes based on nothing but
a whim.

What other reason would bring an Irwin buyer around. Those POS boats were
usually bought on a whim to begin with. How fitting that you had a hand in
their construction!

RB