"The Captains Master" wrote in message
...

Oh and all the bent cops I knew are dead!

You don't tolerate competition, huh?



Regards

Donal
--

When you're talkin' to me you're talking to a
real Captain, don't you know!

What certification do YOU have?

S.Simon - a 25GT Near Coastal USCG licensed Master


"The Captains Master" wrote in message ...
On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 18:26:52 -0400, "Simple Simon"
wrote:

True Captains don't abide junk. Those big, ugly cruising
catamarans are the SUVs of the boating world. They
even roll over like an SUV. They are not worthy to even
be considered ocean-going boats. They are for partying
at the dock and for motoring around and occasionally
sailing in sheltered or coastal waters.

S.Simon - the one and only

Ahhh Cappy you fail to distinguish between the different types of
boat.
There are big unseaworthy monos as well designed only for sitting in
the dock and partying.
In fact there are quite a few in San Diego that have refrigetation
units and generators in what would normally be the engine room.

Then there are the fast cruisers in both multi and mono.....you really
should bludge a ride sometime so you can speak with at least a little
knowledge under the belt.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.
I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

You might have started at 3'6" - what do you really think you have now? Your boom alone
probably added 2 inches! And in a blow that shoal draft keel makes more leeway than I do.

I might loose that contest against a high pointing racing mono that's close to my length,
but with your boat I wouldn't have to bear off at all to just walk away. Your only chance
would be in a narrow channel.


Simple Simon wrote:
If I want three suites and queen-sized bed I'll go to
Motel 8.

I've got three and a half feet of draft and I'll race
you to weather in a good blow on open water any
time and I'll point higher than you.

S.Simon


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
Oh, right. Please tell us what monohull with a 3 foot draft goes to
weather better than my boat. remeber, it has to have three
staterooms with queen size bunks!

Simple Simon wrote:
"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...

Real cruisers stop by because they know my fridge is twice as
large! But I'm often anchored close to shore since a three foot
draft allows me to go where most monohulls only dream of.


How about paying more attention to going where
three-foot-draft monohulls can only dream of going
- like to weather?

He he!

S.Simon.

You're just making this up - show us a stat.

Truth: Monohulls sink far more often than cats capsize

Truth: Larger cruising Cats capsize so infrequently its not possible to have meaningful
statistics. Most brands and models have never had a capsize. For instance, Prout built
4-5000 cruising cats which have sailed millions of blue water miles and they've never had
a capsize or a sinking. Does this make them infinitely safer than most monohulls?

Simple Simon wrote:
All it takes is realism and common sense.

Given ocean miles traveled . . .

Fact: Cats capsize more often than monos
Fact: Cats stay upside down more often than monos

Who needs that"

S.Simon



"The Captains Master" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 18:34:11 -0400, "Simple Simon"
wrote:


There's no correlation. There are probably about five percent
or less multi-hulls cruising the oceans of the world. Raw numbers
would make it seem that monohulls suffered more losses but if
one works the percentages it is easy to see that catamarans
are much much more dangerous. They are a gimmick, a fad,
an offshoot from the charter trade where people could care
less about sailing. People who charter big cats only want
room to party, refrigeration and freezers so they can stuff
their faces with food they cooked in their 'gourmet galleys".

They'd be far better of on a cruise ship, for gawd's sake.

S.Simon - a Captain who knows cruising

You're talking thru your hat.....again!

Do me a favour, before you broach the subject again do some research
on the multis lost in recent years....after the designs were sorted.
Remember Cappy they haven't been around all that long.

You're relying on bar talk and rumour, you have absolutely no basis
for the BS you've trotted out.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.
I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

I'd say that for the all out racers, the trimarans hold the auto-destruct record. There
are certainly lots of cases recently of keels detaching - I've had a weird feeling about
that sort of thing since I happened to meet Mike Plant a year before Coyote's keel fell
off and he disappeared.

But the ORMA 60 Tris don't seem to consider it a good race unless at least half the fleet
capsizes or blows out the mast. In the Route du Rhum how many finished out of 18
starters? three?


The Captains Master wrote:
Wonder what the numbers are for monos that have dropped keels or bulbs
in the last few years, some with fatal results compared to the number
of multis, even full out racing multis pushed to that absolute limit
taht have capsized.

Betcha there's more monos!!


On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 20:42:39 -0400, "Jeff Morris"
jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote:

You're just making this up - show us a stat.

Truth: Monohulls sink far more often than cats capsize

Truth: Larger cruising Cats capsize so infrequently its not
possible to have meaningful statistics. Most brands and models have
never had a capsize. For instance, Prout built 4-5000 cruising cats
which have sailed millions of blue water miles and they've never had
a capsize or a sinking. Does this make them infinitely safer than
most monohulls?

Simple Simon wrote:
All it takes is realism and common sense.

Given ocean miles traveled . . .

Fact: Cats capsize more often than monos
Fact: Cats stay upside down more often than monos

Who needs that"

S.Simon



"The Captains Master" wrote in message
news On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 18:34:11 -0400, "Simple Simon"
wrote:


There's no correlation. There are probably about five percent
or less multi-hulls cruising the oceans of the world. Raw numbers
would make it seem that monohulls suffered more losses but if
one works the percentages it is easy to see that catamarans
are much much more dangerous. They are a gimmick, a fad,
an offshoot from the charter trade where people could care
less about sailing. People who charter big cats only want
room to party, refrigeration and freezers so they can stuff
their faces with food they cooked in their 'gourmet galleys".

They'd be far better of on a cruise ship, for gawd's sake.

S.Simon - a Captain who knows cruising

You're talking thru your hat.....again!

Do me a favour, before you broach the subject again do some
research on the multis lost in recent years....after the designs
were sorted. Remember Cappy they haven't been around all that long.

You're relying on bar talk and rumour, you have absolutely no basis
for the BS you've trotted out.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.
I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.






Oz1...of the 3 twins.
I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

I keep reading that the multi is faster due to less drag
as far as speed goes. As long as you don't overload it

Comments were made about coastal sailing -- this is true
only a idiot would take deep water, without completed lessons
and only a few charters. So yes we plan on coastal sailing for
a while. If I'm understanding it right any type --mono
-- or multi sail boat will do deep water if you know what your doing.
common sense tells me to do coastal sailing for the first two years
and if we decide to do deep water take other sailboats with us.

NH_/)_

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
If I want three suites and queen-sized bed I'll go to
Motel 8.

I've got three and a half feet of draft and I'll race
you to weather in a good blow on open water any
time and I'll point higher than you.

S.Simon


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
Oh, right. Please tell us what monohull with a 3 foot draft goes to
weather better than
my boat. remeber, it has to have three staterooms with queen size
bunks!

Simple Simon wrote:
"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...

Real cruisers stop by because they know my fridge is twice as large!
But I'm often anchored close to shore since a three foot draft
allows me to go where most monohulls only dream of.


How about paying more attention to going where
three-foot-draft monohulls can only dream of going
- like to weather?

He he!

S.Simon.

I was thinking transient , since we plan on going up and down
the coast for a while until we get more experience. Due to the size
I thought that it would be difficult to find a larger mooring, but
maybe that's only if you dock then it would require two spots.
yes having it be able to go in shallow waters -- is a plus -- no
hitting rocks. Also less likely to get stuck on sandbars and having
the keel fall off

NH_/)_


"The Captains Master" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 04 Sep 2003 15:42:43 GMT, "NH_/\)_"
wrote:

2 mooring can be more difficult--finding room


Actually its the exact opposite
Because of the shallow draft you can go much further in than a mono
and anchor in more sheltered water. Hell if you know the bottom you
can even go in far enough for her to dry out at low tide.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.
I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

"NH_/\)_" wrote in
:

I was thinking transient , since we plan on going up and down
the coast for a while until we get more experience. Due to the size
I thought that it would be difficult to find a larger mooring, but
maybe that's only if you dock then it would require two spots.
yes having it be able to go in shallow waters -- is a plus -- no
hitting rocks. Also less likely to get stuck on sandbars and having
the keel fall off


IOW you want a boat for idiots.

OK

Well, there's plenty of advice to be had for such a craft here!


Bertie





and anchor in more sheltered water. Hell if you know the bottom you
can even go in far enough for her to dry out at low tide.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.
I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

I saw the list.

Let's examine them.

1. Reduce sail early, earlier than on a monohull because without a fixed
keel there is no ultimate stability except in the upside down mode.

Absolutely true. Basically, it means you have a different boat that reacts
differently
to the conditions. After you're used to it, it's no big deal.
2. Reduce sail proportionately, most of today's cats rely on a powerful
mainsail and small, non-lapping headsails. These boats don't respond well
under headsail alone and can be overpowered by the main in a gale. A cat
mainsail should have three deep reefs and the spar should have a track for a
storm trysail.

Monos should have just as many reef points. Monos don't respond well in
heavy air either when carrying just a jib.

3. As on any boat, but especially in cat, be prepared to release sheets,
especially the mainsheet, in an instant. During gales sheets tend to become
entangled, so make a point of clearing and coiling them on every watch. Also
carefully monitor chafe on all furling lines.

"As on any boat..." Nothing different here about monos.

4. Consider your searoom very carefully. Cats make leeway, particularly in
big seas and are not close-winded. Avoid trying to make a windward
destination that might endanger the boat if you don't quite lay the mark
because of excessive leeway.

True, but again, this a peculiarity of cats. After you know about it, you
can deal with it.

5. Don't forget the engines. Most large cats have twin diesels, well
separated and they motor effectively. The engines help keep the stern in the
water and can provide a boost for keeping the boat into the wind.

I'd say this is an advantage over monos. Cats can also turn on their own
axis in very crowded areas. Try that with a 40' mono.

6. In really wild conditions you may have no choice but to run off. In this
case, I would want the option of deploying a sea anchor or parachute style
anchor. I don't think there is any situation where you would want to lie
ahull in a cat.

I don't think there are many situations when you'd want to lie ahull in a
mono. As to wild conditions, well, sure, this might be an issue. Then again,
if you plan properly, it shouldn't come up. You also have the sea anchor and
parachute options.

7. If you are new to multihull sailing, don't abandon your monohull
instincts. A gale is still a gale, and it is almost always the water that
does the damage, not the wind. Ultimately, seamanship is a matter of
positioning your boat so that it rides best in the water.

Seems like good advice no matter the boat.

8. Don't be afraid to change tactics if what you're trying doesn't work.
However, pay close attention to tacking and jibing in heavy weather, these
are times the boat is most vulnerable.

Again, good advice. True for all boats.

9. Try to avoid overloading the boat. Once a cat is overloaded it loses its
advantage of floating on top of the water and becomes sluggish and more of a
target for angry seas.

This is absolutely true. It's easy to load up a cat with all kinds of crap.
I mean it looks like you have plenty of room, and a lot of people are
packrats... they just have to have the second TV and the three large
suitcases of clothes even though they're in the tropics. Solution: Don't
overload.

10. In the end, just as a monohull always needs to carry a liferaft and
go-bag when sailing offshore, you should have a capsize plan and make sure
that emrgency supplies will be reachable.

Actually, and advantage that helps with 9. You don't need to carry a
liferaft... saves space and weight. The cat can't sink. So, all you need to
do is have things available in case of the ultimately and unlikely event of
a capsize.

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
Jon,

Scroll down to the bottom of the link she gave
and you'll find a list of ten reasons why this type
of cruising cat is dangerous enough to make a list
like this necessary. You won't find such a list on a
monohull site. That should tell you something.

S.Simon - a Captain who sails a man's boat

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Bull****. They're great rigs if you understand them. If you overload
them, over- or under-canvass them, then they're crap. Some designs
are not well thought out and are thus crap. If you sail them beyond
your knowledge and skill, they're crap. But, all of this can be said
for monohulls as well. It's the sailor, not the boat 99% of the time.

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
Only women and girly men are interested in Catamarans.

(Sorry Per!)

S.Simon - a Captain who knows multihulls are not real boats


"NH_/)_" wrote in message
...
Cats are looking to be a nice choice in the 38-40ft range



http://www.sailnet.com/collections/b...ing%20a%20Boat


NH_/)_

There are definitely condorams out there. You're right. They're
ugly and dangerous. However, a cat designed, set up for, and
provisioned correctly it just as seaworth as a mono.. perhaps
more so.

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
news
True Captains don't abide junk. Those big, ugly cruising
catamarans are the SUVs of the boating world. They
even roll over like an SUV. They are not worthy to even
be considered ocean-going boats. They are for partying
at the dock and for motoring around and occasionally
sailing in sheltered or coastal waters.

S.Simon - the one and only


"The Captains Master" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:12:59 -0400, "Simple Simon"
wrote:

Only women and girly men are interested in Catamarans.

(Sorry Per!)

S.Simon - a Captain who knows multihulls are not real boats

A true captain is aware and open minded, able to assess situations as
they develop


Oz1...of the 3 twins.
I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.