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  #81   Report Post  
katysails
 
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Default Church & State...

"litterati"?
They have restrooms in Italy for rats/

--=20
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

  #82   Report Post  
Scout
 
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Frank and Ronnie,
I believe Katy was using tongue-in-cheek there, and knows exactly what I
meant, which was, only by the careful selection of literature can students
have the exposure to correct models of language use. It is precisely because
of the reasons you've given that literature is so important. Choosing that
literature is the job of the schools, who work under the auspices of the
community at large via school boards and departments of education. With my
own kids, I chose to add more by reading constantly to them at home. As soon
as they were able, they read on their own too.
In my previous post on this subject, I tried to summarize a mountain of
research, including thousands of case studies, in just a few short
paragraphs. I'm not saying the formal rules of language should be or are
kept from students, what I'm saying is that memorizing them is all but
impossible and focusing on them only turns off would-be learners. Other than
impressing people at a boring party, what good did memorizing all those
prepositions do anyone? Do you really need to memorize a list of irregular
verbs, or do you think it might sink in deeper if you saw them used properly
a number of times?
My wife and I have raised 3 children and we've been reading to them since
they could speak. We are both teachers now (my second career). Even so, I
would not have home-schooled-only my own children unless it was unavoidable.
In other words, there is no doubt that parents participation is essential
for developing attitudes toward learning, work ethics, and study habits, but
I would not have deprived my children of the tens of great teachers who gave
them so much that I could not have given. It doesn't matter that I'm
certified in a number of areas either. Each science teacher contributed some
unique portion of my kids' education, so did each English teacher, math
teacher, and so on. My daughter scored a perfect 800 in the verbal section
of her SATs - I believe her success was in part due to her school teachers,
and yes, in part to her home teachers : ) I also feel obliged to tell you
that some of the worst cases in my school were kids who were previously
homeschooled. I'm not saying it can't be done, I just hope, for your kids
sake, that you really can do what you hope you can. I couldn't do it all.
With that said, if I can help you in anyway, let me know.
You used sailing as an analogy, but you got my part wrong. I'm sure as heck
not saying the learner achieves competence by aping someone who is
incompetent. I'm saying just the opposite, that the competence will come
from aping a competent writer. There's a big difference between the two
analogies.
Again, I'm not offering this as my opinion, I'm saying a boatload of hard
data backs this up. You should research it a bit more. And don't assume the
problems within our schools are the fault of talentless, uncaring teachers.
If only that was the problem! I'm afraid the real problem is much closer to
home.
--
Scout


"Frank and Ronnie Maier" wrote in message
om...
"Scout" wrote:
...snip learn-by-absorption discussion...

katysails replied:
And where, pray tell, are you going to find enough people who use the
language correctly to influence said individuals to follow suit?


Scout, I don't disagree with your basic concept; but Katy's point is
inescapable. All three-year-olds learn to speak without a "formal"
study of grammar. They learn to speak as fluently as their parents,
that is. IMO, judging by what I see, hear, and read in contemporary
society, that ain't exactly competent use of our native tongue. And as
for reading, hah!

If students were to read a range of quality literature, I agree that
they'd pick up (intuit) grammar rules. Mostly. Again, the reality is
that, if they're readers at all, they're mostly reading popular
fiction. You'll pick up grammar from comic books about as well.

Sailing analogies have come into this thread; here's mine. Average
American "Bobsprit" is a sailor. (Stop laughing! I'm trying to make a
point.) He has learned to sail without formal instruction by watching
other sailors. He goes on daysails in his home waters and usually
comes home unscathed.

Now, you're essentially telling me you believe he has achieved
"competence" by watching and aping; he doesn't need formal instruction
in sailing. Sorry but I gotta disagree. Your premise requires/assumes
Bob's had experience with good sailors in a variety of conditions and
that's simply not the case. IMO, Bob needs formal instruction in
sailing. I agree that he then needs to practice/use this abstract
knowledge in the real world. But just imagine it!

I dream of a world in which the average American is fluent in his own
language and Bob is someone I'd leave at the helm unsupervised. Call
me an optimist...

Frank

P.S. FYI, I was very happy with the grammar school my kids were in;
but even so, we've recently taken them out (3rd and 4th grades) to
start homeschooling, well, more precisely, unschooling.



  #83   Report Post  
/etc
 
Posts: n/a
Default Church & State...

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:25:59 -0400, when the end of the tunnel became
apparent, Scout posted:

Frank and Ronnie,
I believe Katy was using tongue-in-cheek there, and knows exactly what I
meant, which was, only by the careful selection of literature can students
have the exposure to correct models of language use. It is precisely because
of the reasons you've given that literature is so important. Choosing that
literature is the job of the schools, who work under the auspices of the
community at large via school boards and departments of education. With my
own kids, I chose to add more by reading constantly to them at home. As soon
as they were able, they read on their own too.
In my previous post on this subject, I tried to summarize a mountain of
research, including thousands of case studies, in just a few short
paragraphs. I'm not saying the formal rules of language should be or are
kept from students, what I'm saying is that memorizing them is all but
impossible and focusing on them only turns off would-be learners. Other than
impressing people at a boring party, what good did memorizing all those
prepositions do anyone? Do you really need to memorize a list of irregular
verbs, or do you think it might sink in deeper if you saw them used properly
a number of times?
My wife and I have raised 3 children and we've been reading to them since
they could speak. We are both teachers now (my second career). Even so, I
would not have home-schooled-only my own children unless it was unavoidable.
In other words, there is no doubt that parents participation is essential
for developing attitudes toward learning, work ethics, and study habits, but
I would not have deprived my children of the tens of great teachers who gave
them so much that I could not have given. It doesn't matter that I'm
certified in a number of areas either. Each science teacher contributed some
unique portion of my kids' education, so did each English teacher, math
teacher, and so on. My daughter scored a perfect 800 in the verbal section
of her SATs - I believe her success was in part due to her school teachers,
and yes, in part to her home teachers : ) I also feel obliged to tell you
that some of the worst cases in my school were kids who were previously
homeschooled. I'm not saying it can't be done, I just hope, for your kids
sake, that you really can do what you hope you can. I couldn't do it all.
With that said, if I can help you in anyway, let me know.
You used sailing as an analogy, but you got my part wrong. I'm sure as heck
not saying the learner achieves competence by aping someone who is
incompetent. I'm saying just the opposite, that the competence will come
from aping a competent writer. There's a big difference between the two
analogies.
Again, I'm not offering this as my opinion, I'm saying a boatload of hard
data backs this up. You should research it a bit more. And don't assume the
problems within our schools are the fault of talentless, uncaring teachers.
If only that was the problem! I'm afraid the real problem is much closer to
home.


What a lot of lines to expose yourself as an imbecile.

--
mhm 27x12


  #84   Report Post  
Bertie the Bunyip
 
Posts: n/a
Default Church & State...

"/etc" wrote in
news
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 16:24:48 +0000, when the end of the tunnel became
apparent, Bertie the Bunyip posted:

"/etc" wrote in
news
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:01:44 +0000, when the end of the tunnel became
apparent, Bertie the Bunyip posted:

"/etc" wrote in
news
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:49:41 +0000, when the end of the tunnel
became apparent, Bertie the Bunyip posted:

"/etc" wrote in
news
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 02:18:27 +0000, when the end of the tunnel
became apparent, Bertie the Bunyip posted:

"katysails" wrote in
:

(people) learn the rules of a language much more effectively by
exposure to others who use it correctly

And where, pray tell, are you going to find enough people who
use the language correctly to influence said individuals to
follow suit?


Fox?

Awww, bertie, youre doing it again, why not join the
Alcatroll crew ?

Is there a pension?

You get pension from day 1 on. Ask PJR.


Cool. You got a canteen?

We have a fridge and a bar in each office,
and a party at coffee break. Steve Leyland
will pass the bong.


OK, dental plan?


We've got that outsourced to a Phillipine company,
works fine!!


Cool,do you allow pets in the ofice?

Bertei
  #85   Report Post  
Bertie the Bunyip
 
Posts: n/a
Default Church & State...

"Scout" wrote in
:

Frank and Ronnie,
I believe Katy was using tongue-in-cheek there, and knows exactly what
I meant, which was, only by the careful selection of literature can
students have the exposure to correct models of language use.


Correct models of language use?

Bwawhahwhahwhhahwhahwhahwhahhwhahwhahwhahwhahwhahh whahwhahwhahwhhahw!

What a fjuckwit.
Language is a living breathing thing with ever evolving exprssions, colors
and of course relevance due to cahnges in society, culture and technology.

only someone wiht his head as far as his ass as your's is would make such a
statement.

Bertie


  #86   Report Post  
Bertie the Bunyip
 
Posts: n/a
Default Church & State...

"/etc" wrote in
news
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:25:59 -0400, when the end of the tunnel became
apparent, Scout posted:

Frank and Ronnie,
I believe Katy was using tongue-in-cheek there, and knows exactly
what I meant, which was, only by the careful selection of literature
can students have the exposure to correct models of language use. It
is precisely because of the reasons you've given that literature is
so important. Choosing that literature is the job of the schools, who
work under the auspices of the community at large via school boards
and departments of education. With my own kids, I chose to add more
by reading constantly to them at home. As soon as they were able,
they read on their own too. In my previous post on this subject, I
tried to summarize a mountain of research, including thousands of
case studies, in just a few short paragraphs. I'm not saying the
formal rules of language should be or are kept from students, what
I'm saying is that memorizing them is all but impossible and focusing
on them only turns off would-be learners. Other than impressing
people at a boring party, what good did memorizing all those
prepositions do anyone? Do you really need to memorize a list of
irregular verbs, or do you think it might sink in deeper if you saw
them used properly a number of times?
My wife and I have raised 3 children and we've been reading to them
since they could speak. We are both teachers now (my second career).
Even so, I would not have home-schooled-only my own children unless
it was unavoidable. In other words, there is no doubt that parents
participation is essential for developing attitudes toward learning,
work ethics, and study habits, but I would not have deprived my
children of the tens of great teachers who gave them so much that I
could not have given. It doesn't matter that I'm certified in a
number of areas either. Each science teacher contributed some unique
portion of my kids' education, so did each English teacher, math
teacher, and so on. My daughter scored a perfect 800 in the verbal
section of her SATs - I believe her success was in part due to her
school teachers, and yes, in part to her home teachers : ) I also
feel obliged to tell you that some of the worst cases in my school
were kids who were previously homeschooled. I'm not saying it can't
be done, I just hope, for your kids sake, that you really can do what
you hope you can. I couldn't do it all. With that said, if I can help
you in anyway, let me know. You used sailing as an analogy, but you
got my part wrong. I'm sure as heck not saying the learner achieves
competence by aping someone who is incompetent. I'm saying just the
opposite, that the competence will come from aping a competent
writer. There's a big difference between the two analogies.
Again, I'm not offering this as my opinion, I'm saying a boatload of
hard data backs this up. You should research it a bit more. And don't
assume the problems within our schools are the fault of talentless,
uncaring teachers. If only that was the problem! I'm afraid the real
problem is much closer to home.


What a lot of lines to expose yourself as an imbecile.


Give him credit, he is a pretty big imbecile.

Bertie
  #87   Report Post  
Peter J Ross
 
Posts: n/a
Default Church & State...

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 21:02:34 +0200, a team of surgeons from
alt.sailing.asa removed the following benign growth from /etc:

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 16:24:48 +0000, when the end of the tunnel became
apparent, Bertie the Bunyip posted:

"/etc" wrote in
news
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:01:44 +0000, when the end of the tunnel became
apparent, Bertie the Bunyip posted:

"/etc" wrote in
news
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:49:41 +0000, when the end of the tunnel
became apparent, Bertie the Bunyip posted:

"/etc" wrote in
news
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 02:18:27 +0000, when the end of the tunnel
became apparent, Bertie the Bunyip posted:

"katysails" wrote in
:

(people) learn the rules of a language much more effectively by
exposure to others who use it correctly

And where, pray tell, are you going to find enough people who
use the language correctly to influence said individuals to
follow suit?


Fox?

Awww, bertie, youre doing it again, why not join the
Alcatroll crew ?

Is there a pension?

You get pension from day 1 on. Ask PJR.


Cool. You got a canteen?

We have a fridge and a bar in each office,
and a party at coffee break. Steve Leyland
will pass the bong.


OK, dental plan?


We've got that outsourced to a Phillipine company,
works fine!!

Bertie


I suggest "Chairman of Queen Mother Studies" as Bertie's job
description.

But what do I know? I'm only the Vice-President, FFS.

http://www.insurgent.org/~alcatroll/

--
PJR :-)
mhm34x8
news:alt.fan.pjr
http://www.petitmorte.net/pjr/
http://www.pjr-online.co.uk/
  #88   Report Post  
jack canatsey
 
Posts: n/a
Default Church & State...

Also in Florida, home of the real first settlement.
Capt.Jack
"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
news
I guess you never got out of Grade School.

What an idiot.

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 04:35:43 +0000, Horvath wrote:

On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:26:54 -0400, "katysails"
wrote this crap:

In some US towns close to the border Hispanics who have managed
to get into office have changed the "official" language in the local

schools to
Spanish.

Haate to tell you this, but Spanish was here and established long before

English was.

Only in California.




Ave Imperator Bush!
Bush Was Right! Four More Years!




  #89   Report Post  
/etc
 
Posts: n/a
Default Church & State...

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 23:21:18 +0000, when the end of the tunnel became
apparent, Bertie the Bunyip posted:

"/etc" wrote in
news
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 16:24:48 +0000, when the end of the tunnel became
apparent, Bertie the Bunyip posted:

"/etc" wrote in
news
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:01:44 +0000, when the end of the tunnel became
apparent, Bertie the Bunyip posted:

"/etc" wrote in
news
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:49:41 +0000, when the end of the tunnel
became apparent, Bertie the Bunyip posted:

"/etc" wrote in
news
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 02:18:27 +0000, when the end of the tunnel
became apparent, Bertie the Bunyip posted:

"katysails" wrote in
:

(people) learn the rules of a language much more effectively by
exposure to others who use it correctly

And where, pray tell, are you going to find enough people who
use the language correctly to influence said individuals to
follow suit?


Fox?

Awww, bertie, youre doing it again, why not join the
Alcatroll crew ?

Is there a pension?

You get pension from day 1 on. Ask PJR.


Cool. You got a canteen?

We have a fridge and a bar in each office,
and a party at coffee break. Steve Leyland
will pass the bong.

OK, dental plan?


We've got that outsourced to a Phillipine company,
works fine!!


Cool,do you allow pets in the ofice?


Only feline ones, that is obvious, since our boss is one.


Bertei


--
mhm 27x12


  #90   Report Post  
Thom Stewart
 
Posts: n/a
Default Church & State...

Scout,

I agree with you about early reading. My daughter is 36 now and I can't
remember how old she was when I gave her, "Hello God, it's Me Margret" I
think she was it the 3rd grade. She became a reader. She enjoyed going
to the book store as much as the Ice Cream Parlor. She breezied thru
school and college.

However, It sure as hell didn't help her spelling!!!

Ole Thom

 
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