Frank and Ronnie,
I believe Katy was using tongue-in-cheek there, and knows exactly what I
meant, which was, only by the careful selection of literature can students
have the exposure to correct models of language use. It is precisely because
of the reasons you've given that literature is so important. Choosing that
literature is the job of the schools, who work under the auspices of the
community at large via school boards and departments of education. With my
own kids, I chose to add more by reading constantly to them at home. As soon
as they were able, they read on their own too.
In my previous post on this subject, I tried to summarize a mountain of
research, including thousands of case studies, in just a few short
paragraphs. I'm not saying the formal rules of language should be or are
kept from students, what I'm saying is that memorizing them is all but
impossible and focusing on them only turns off would-be learners. Other than
impressing people at a boring party, what good did memorizing all those
prepositions do anyone? Do you really need to memorize a list of irregular
verbs, or do you think it might sink in deeper if you saw them used properly
a number of times?
My wife and I have raised 3 children and we've been reading to them since
they could speak. We are both teachers now (my second career). Even so, I
would not have home-schooled-only my own children unless it was unavoidable.
In other words, there is no doubt that parents participation is essential
for developing attitudes toward learning, work ethics, and study habits, but
I would not have deprived my children of the tens of great teachers who gave
them so much that I could not have given. It doesn't matter that I'm
certified in a number of areas either. Each science teacher contributed some
unique portion of my kids' education, so did each English teacher, math
teacher, and so on. My daughter scored a perfect 800 in the verbal section
of her SATs - I believe her success was in part due to her school teachers,
and yes, in part to her home teachers : ) I also feel obliged to tell you
that some of the worst cases in my school were kids who were previously
homeschooled. I'm not saying it can't be done, I just hope, for your kids
sake, that you really can do what you hope you can. I couldn't do it all.
With that said, if I can help you in anyway, let me know.
You used sailing as an analogy, but you got my part wrong. I'm sure as heck
not saying the learner achieves competence by aping someone who is
incompetent. I'm saying just the opposite, that the competence will come
from aping a competent writer. There's a big difference between the two
analogies.
Again, I'm not offering this as my opinion, I'm saying a boatload of hard
data backs this up. You should research it a bit more. And don't assume the
problems within our schools are the fault of talentless, uncaring teachers.
If only that was the problem! I'm afraid the real problem is much closer to
home.
--
Scout


"Frank and Ronnie Maier" wrote in message
om...
"Scout" wrote:
...snip learn-by-absorption discussion...

katysails replied:
And where, pray tell, are you going to find enough people who use the
language correctly to influence said individuals to follow suit?

Scout, I don't disagree with your basic concept; but Katy's point is
inescapable. All three-year-olds learn to speak without a "formal"
study of grammar. They learn to speak as fluently as their parents,
that is. IMO, judging by what I see, hear, and read in contemporary
society, that ain't exactly competent use of our native tongue. And as
for reading, hah!

If students were to read a range of quality literature, I agree that
they'd pick up (intuit) grammar rules. Mostly. Again, the reality is
that, if they're readers at all, they're mostly reading popular
fiction. You'll pick up grammar from comic books about as well.

Sailing analogies have come into this thread; here's mine. Average
American "Bobsprit" is a sailor. (Stop laughing! I'm trying to make a
point.) He has learned to sail without formal instruction by watching
other sailors. He goes on daysails in his home waters and usually
comes home unscathed.

Now, you're essentially telling me you believe he has achieved
"competence" by watching and aping; he doesn't need formal instruction
in sailing. Sorry but I gotta disagree. Your premise requires/assumes
Bob's had experience with good sailors in a variety of conditions and
that's simply not the case. IMO, Bob needs formal instruction in
sailing. I agree that he then needs to practice/use this abstract
knowledge in the real world. But just imagine it!

I dream of a world in which the average American is fluent in his own
language and Bob is someone I'd leave at the helm unsupervised. Call
me an optimist...

Frank

P.S. FYI, I was very happy with the grammar school my kids were in;
but even so, we've recently taken them out (3rd and 4th grades) to
start homeschooling, well, more precisely, unschooling.