On Aug 17, 5:53 pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 5:45 pm, wrote:



On Aug 17, 5:09 pm, hk wrote:

wrote:
On Aug 17, 4:48 pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 4:32 pm, wrote:

On Aug 17, 2:43 pm, hk wrote:
RMR wrote:
This is ridiculous.. the hybrids we make no adays are every bit as
strong as wood stringer, poly boats.. You can't compare what your dad
sold in his shop made of polyester resin, and the epoxy, mahogany,
glass and bi axle made now. It's in the engineering, you can spew all
you want, but you are wrong... The Toleman's in particular are some
beefy boats that go where your Parker never will. I won't let you pull
me into this one, you need to do your homework then come back and we
will talk..
Consider you probably have never even been close to a Parker, or climbed
aboard one and looked around, I find your comment laughable.
Then your comment about a certain Tolman is equally laughable if
you've not seen it.
I've seen some stitch-and-glue dories around here, even a couple of
16-footers. I wasn't impressed.
There are small dories that are wood handbuilt that will still be
around when you're Parker is dead.
What's the biggest stitch-and-glue heavy duty boat you've built that
regularly plies the ocean?
To think that someone can't build a wood boat at least as strong as a
commercial company (who is trying to make a profit) that makes thin
F.G. boats is stupid and absurd.
I believe that empiracally and theoretically, that a joint made using
epoxy/glass/biax/epoxy saturated wood is stronger than a poly-resin
boat built with poly-glass/wood stringer construction.

Even the best production boat company cannot put as much work into a
boat as a home builder can. The home builder can afford to use the
best materials and lavish time on each joint to maximize strength and
when it is done decide to do it over whereas once the production boat
company decides its profit margin is going down, so do invisible
improvements.

I wouldn't leave the marina in the typical home built boat. I've seen
lots of 'em. I'm not saying a careful knowledgeable builder can't do a
fine job, because I have seen examples of those, too. But typically, the
homebuilts I have seen are poorly constructed out of crappy materials.

Memo to self: Cross HK offa invite list.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you know the history, he was really trolling folks like myself who
actually know a little about composite, skin on frame boats, try KF
the guy, and Genes server, and life will be a lot easier.. I love the
tolmans, I always wanted to build a Simmons Sea Skiff for "out east"
here.

It is a shame, we see people with a lifetime of experience they should
be able to pas on to others but odd personality flaws prevent them
from being able to do so. It is really odd that they often even
refuse to look at things logically; when everybody around them
complains about their behavior, they conclude that everybody else is
wrong. How likely is that? So, this lifetime of accumulated
knowledge remains locked inside their heads. A real shame.

On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 10:43:19 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

I suspect the Tolman is stronger than most Fiberglas boats and I have
never heard of this happening so his answer is useless. *Any other
answers on how much pounding is too much?

Most good boats will take as much or more than you can, at least for a
while. It really all comes down to your sense of what is appropriate.
Usually boats that fail from pounding do so gradually over time, and
the softness becomes evident as things deteriorate. Things flex and
rattle that shouldn't be, cracks become evident, floors go soft,
stringers flex, that sort of thing.

There was a notable exception close to Marco Island last year where a
go fast boat was jumping wakes at high speed just for the thrill of
it. They jumped one too many and the boat disintegrated on contact,
killing several people.

wrote:
On Aug 17, 5:45 pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 5:09 pm, hk wrote:





wrote:
On Aug 17, 4:48 pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 4:32 pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 2:43 pm, hk wrote:
RMR wrote:
This is ridiculous.. the hybrids we make no adays are every bit as
strong as wood stringer, poly boats.. You can't compare what your dad
sold in his shop made of polyester resin, and the epoxy, mahogany,
glass and bi axle made now. It's in the engineering, you can spew all
you want, but you are wrong... The Toleman's in particular are some
beefy boats that go where your Parker never will. I won't let you pull
me into this one, you need to do your homework then come back and we
will talk..
Consider you probably have never even been close to a Parker, or climbed
aboard one and looked around, I find your comment laughable.
Then your comment about a certain Tolman is equally laughable if
you've not seen it.
I've seen some stitch-and-glue dories around here, even a couple of
16-footers. I wasn't impressed.
There are small dories that are wood handbuilt that will still be
around when you're Parker is dead.
What's the biggest stitch-and-glue heavy duty boat you've built that
regularly plies the ocean?
To think that someone can't build a wood boat at least as strong as a
commercial company (who is trying to make a profit) that makes thin
F.G. boats is stupid and absurd.
I believe that empiracally and theoretically, that a joint made using
epoxy/glass/biax/epoxy saturated wood is stronger than a poly-resin
boat built with poly-glass/wood stringer construction.
Even the best production boat company cannot put as much work into a
boat as a home builder can. The home builder can afford to use the
best materials and lavish time on each joint to maximize strength and
when it is done decide to do it over whereas once the production boat
company decides its profit margin is going down, so do invisible
improvements.
I wouldn't leave the marina in the typical home built boat. I've seen
lots of 'em. I'm not saying a careful knowledgeable builder can't do a
fine job, because I have seen examples of those, too. But typically, the
homebuilts I have seen are poorly constructed out of crappy materials.
Memo to self: Cross HK offa invite list.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you know the history, he was really trolling folks like myself who
actually know a little about composite, skin on frame boats, try KF
the guy, and Genes server, and life will be a lot easier.. I love the
tolmans, I always wanted to build a Simmons Sea Skiff for "out east"
here.



The question posed to you was what larger ocean-capable wood boats have
you built.

The answer, obviously, is none.

wrote:
On Aug 17, 5:53 pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 5:45 pm, wrote:



On Aug 17, 5:09 pm, hk wrote:
wrote:
On Aug 17, 4:48 pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 4:32 pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 2:43 pm, hk wrote:
RMR wrote:
This is ridiculous.. the hybrids we make no adays are every bit as
strong as wood stringer, poly boats.. You can't compare what your dad
sold in his shop made of polyester resin, and the epoxy, mahogany,
glass and bi axle made now. It's in the engineering, you can spew all
you want, but you are wrong... The Toleman's in particular are some
beefy boats that go where your Parker never will. I won't let you pull
me into this one, you need to do your homework then come back and we
will talk..
Consider you probably have never even been close to a Parker, or climbed
aboard one and looked around, I find your comment laughable.
Then your comment about a certain Tolman is equally laughable if
you've not seen it.
I've seen some stitch-and-glue dories around here, even a couple of
16-footers. I wasn't impressed.
There are small dories that are wood handbuilt that will still be
around when you're Parker is dead.
What's the biggest stitch-and-glue heavy duty boat you've built that
regularly plies the ocean?
To think that someone can't build a wood boat at least as strong as a
commercial company (who is trying to make a profit) that makes thin
F.G. boats is stupid and absurd.
I believe that empiracally and theoretically, that a joint made using
epoxy/glass/biax/epoxy saturated wood is stronger than a poly-resin
boat built with poly-glass/wood stringer construction.
Even the best production boat company cannot put as much work into a
boat as a home builder can. The home builder can afford to use the
best materials and lavish time on each joint to maximize strength and
when it is done decide to do it over whereas once the production boat
company decides its profit margin is going down, so do invisible
improvements.
I wouldn't leave the marina in the typical home built boat. I've seen
lots of 'em. I'm not saying a careful knowledgeable builder can't do a
fine job, because I have seen examples of those, too. But typically, the
homebuilts I have seen are poorly constructed out of crappy materials.
Memo to self: Cross HK offa invite list.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
If you know the history, he was really trolling folks like myself who
actually know a little about composite, skin on frame boats, try KF
the guy, and Genes server, and life will be a lot easier.. I love the
tolmans, I always wanted to build a Simmons Sea Skiff for "out east"
here.

It is a shame, we see people with a lifetime of experience they should
be able to pas on to others but odd personality flaws prevent them
from being able to do so. It is really odd that they often even
refuse to look at things logically; when everybody around them
complains about their behavior, they conclude that everybody else is
wrong. How likely is that? So, this lifetime of accumulated
knowledge remains locked inside their heads. A real shame.


--

I'll tell you what is a shame: someone like JustWait who has never built
a large wood boat capable of ocean duty making all manner of incorrect
claims, as for example, the Tolmans are not stitch and glue, when, in
fact, the designer of said boats says they are.

What is also ridiculous is a home brew builder claiming his boat is as
strong as a factory built boat. What does your boat weigh, sans engine,
fuel, et cetera? Under 1000 pounds? The last 18-foot boat I had weighed
1650 pounds and was built like a tank. My current boat is 21' and weighs
almost 3000 pounds. I bet you think weight isn't relative to strength in
boats capable of running in heavy water.

Getting back to the original question...how fast can you run a really
choppy inlet? With your lightweight boat and its nearly flat bottom, I'd
guess you could maintain planing speed...maybe.

On Aug 17, 6:25*pm, hk wrote:
wrote:
On Aug 17, 5:53 pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 5:45 pm, wrote:

On Aug 17, 5:09 pm, hk wrote:
wrote:
On Aug 17, 4:48 pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 4:32 pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 2:43 pm, hk wrote:
RMR wrote:
This is ridiculous.. the hybrids we make no adays are every bit as
strong as wood stringer, poly boats.. You can't compare what your dad
sold in his shop made of polyester resin, and the epoxy, mahogany,
glass and bi axle made now. It's in the engineering, you can spew all
you want, but you are wrong... The Toleman's in particular are some
beefy boats that go where your Parker never will. I won't let you pull
me into this one, you need to do your homework then come back and we
will talk..
Consider you probably have never even been close to a Parker, or climbed
aboard one and looked around, I find your comment laughable.
Then your comment about a certain Tolman is equally laughable if
you've not seen it.
I've seen some stitch-and-glue dories around here, even a couple of
16-footers. I wasn't impressed.
There are small dories that are wood handbuilt that will still be
around when you're Parker is dead.
What's the biggest stitch-and-glue heavy duty boat you've built that
regularly plies the ocean?
To think that someone can't build a wood boat at least as strong as a
commercial company (who is trying to make a profit) that makes thin
F.G. boats is stupid and absurd.
I believe that empiracally and theoretically, that a joint made using
epoxy/glass/biax/epoxy saturated wood is stronger than a poly-resin
boat built with poly-glass/wood stringer construction.
Even the best production boat company cannot put as much work into a
boat as a home builder can. *The home builder can afford to use the
best materials and lavish time on each joint to maximize strength and
when it is done decide to do it over whereas once the production boat
company decides its profit margin is going down, so do invisible
improvements.
I wouldn't leave the marina in the typical home built boat. I've seen
lots of 'em. I'm not saying a careful knowledgeable builder can't do a
fine job, because I have seen examples of those, too. But typically, the
homebuilts I have seen are poorly constructed out of crappy materials.
Memo to self: *Cross HK offa invite list.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
If you know the history, he was really trolling folks like myself who
actually know a little about composite, skin on frame boats, try KF
the guy, and Genes server, and life will be a lot easier.. I love the
tolmans, I always wanted to build a Simmons Sea Skiff for "out east"
here.

It is a shame, we see people with a lifetime of experience they should
be able to pas on to others but odd personality flaws prevent them
from being able to do so. *It is really odd that they often even
refuse to look at things logically; when everybody around them
complains about their behavior, they conclude that everybody else is
wrong. *How likely is that? *So, this lifetime of accumulated
knowledge remains locked inside their heads. *A real shame.

--

I'll tell you what is a shame: someone like JustWait who has never built
a large wood boat capable of ocean duty making all manner of incorrect
claims, as for example, the Tolmans are not stitch and glue, when, in
fact, the designer of said boats says they are.

What is also ridiculous is a home brew builder claiming his boat is as
strong as a factory built boat. What does your boat weigh, sans engine,
fuel, et cetera? Under 1000 pounds? The last 18-foot boat I had weighed
1650 pounds and was built like a tank. My current boat is 21' and weighs
almost 3000 pounds. I bet you think weight isn't relative to strength in
boats capable of running in heavy water.

Getting back to the original question...how fast can you run a really
choppy inlet? With your lightweight boat and its nearly flat bottom, I'd
guess you could maintain planing speed...maybe.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

the designer is using laymans terms when he calls it stitch and tape.
If you study the plans for a Toleman, there is one seam that is
stitched, but the boat is a skin on frame, not a stitch and tape..
Like I said Harry, twist it any way you wish.. it is what it is...

On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 12:50:39 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Parker's solid fir plywood stringer system continues to give
customers the strongest, toughest and safest fiberglass boats built.

~~ snerk~~

Plywood stringers indeed. At least they're not chip board.

On Aug 17, 6:33*pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 6:25*pm, hk wrote:





wrote:
On Aug 17, 5:53 pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 5:45 pm, wrote:

On Aug 17, 5:09 pm, hk wrote:
wrote:
On Aug 17, 4:48 pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 4:32 pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 2:43 pm, hk wrote:
RMR wrote:
This is ridiculous.. the hybrids we make no adays are every bit as
strong as wood stringer, poly boats.. You can't compare what your dad
sold in his shop made of polyester resin, and the epoxy, mahogany,
glass and bi axle made now. It's in the engineering, you can spew all
you want, but you are wrong... The Toleman's in particular are some
beefy boats that go where your Parker never will. I won't let you pull
me into this one, you need to do your homework then come back and we
will talk..
Consider you probably have never even been close to a Parker, or climbed
aboard one and looked around, I find your comment laughable.
Then your comment about a certain Tolman is equally laughable if
you've not seen it.
I've seen some stitch-and-glue dories around here, even a couple of
16-footers. I wasn't impressed.
There are small dories that are wood handbuilt that will still be
around when you're Parker is dead.
What's the biggest stitch-and-glue heavy duty boat you've built that
regularly plies the ocean?
To think that someone can't build a wood boat at least as strong as a
commercial company (who is trying to make a profit) that makes thin
F.G. boats is stupid and absurd.
I believe that empiracally and theoretically, that a joint made using
epoxy/glass/biax/epoxy saturated wood is stronger than a poly-resin
boat built with poly-glass/wood stringer construction.
Even the best production boat company cannot put as much work into a
boat as a home builder can. *The home builder can afford to use the
best materials and lavish time on each joint to maximize strength and
when it is done decide to do it over whereas once the production boat
company decides its profit margin is going down, so do invisible
improvements.
I wouldn't leave the marina in the typical home built boat. I've seen
lots of 'em. I'm not saying a careful knowledgeable builder can't do a
fine job, because I have seen examples of those, too. But typically, the
homebuilts I have seen are poorly constructed out of crappy materials.
Memo to self: *Cross HK offa invite list.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
If you know the history, he was really trolling folks like myself who
actually know a little about composite, skin on frame boats, try KF
the guy, and Genes server, and life will be a lot easier.. I love the
tolmans, I always wanted to build a Simmons Sea Skiff for "out east"
here.

It is a shame, we see people with a lifetime of experience they should
be able to pas on to others but odd personality flaws prevent them
from being able to do so. *It is really odd that they often even
refuse to look at things logically; when everybody around them
complains about their behavior, they conclude that everybody else is
wrong. *How likely is that? *So, this lifetime of accumulated
knowledge remains locked inside their heads. *A real shame.

--

I'll tell you what is a shame: someone like JustWait who has never built
a large wood boat capable of ocean duty making all manner of incorrect
claims, as for example, the Tolmans are not stitch and glue, when, in
fact, the designer of said boats says they are.

What is also ridiculous is a home brew builder claiming his boat is as
strong as a factory built boat. What does your boat weigh, sans engine,
fuel, et cetera? Under 1000 pounds? The last 18-foot boat I had weighed
1650 pounds and was built like a tank. My current boat is 21' and weighs
almost 3000 pounds. I bet you think weight isn't relative to strength in
boats capable of running in heavy water.

Getting back to the original question...how fast can you run a really
choppy inlet? With your lightweight boat and its nearly flat bottom, I'd
guess you could maintain planing speed...maybe.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

the designer is using laymans terms when he calls it stitch and tape.
If you study the plans for a Toleman, there is one seam that is
stitched, but the boat is a skin on frame, not a stitch and tape..
Like I said Harry, twist it any way you wish.. it is what it is...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And you twisted the question, a typical trait of yours. First it was
"what stitch and tape..." now it's "what ocean going.. " you are
toying around while folks are trying to get serious info, but you
obliviously don't know the difference between stitch and tape, and
composite, and skin on frame.. Three different construction methods,
three sets of engineering tricks to provide structural integerity,
although there are also several ways to hybred two or three of the
techniques, which I have done for several dozen boats, How many Epoxy
resin (not polyester) Occoume laminate, and Bi-axle boats have you
built, any size will do, and please provide either pictures, or just
spin it another way. I just can't stand to see someone passing along
so much wrong information, but I will try again to ignore you...
later..

wrote in message
...

On Aug 17, 6:33 pm, wrote:


And you twisted the question, a typical trait of yours. First it was
"what stitch and tape..." now it's "what ocean going.. " you are
toying around while folks are trying to get serious info, but you
obliviously don't know the difference between stitch and tape, and
composite, and skin on frame.. Three different construction methods,
three sets of engineering tricks to provide structural integerity,
although there are also several ways to hybred two or three of the
techniques, which I have done for several dozen boats, How many Epoxy
resin (not polyester) Occoume laminate, and Bi-axle boats have you
built, any size will do, and please provide either pictures, or just
spin it another way. I just can't stand to see someone passing along
so much wrong information, but I will try again to ignore you...
later..


I am a complete dummy about working with fiberglass and resins, mainly
because my brief employment at Boston Whaler exposed my severe allergic
reaction to the stuff.

But, a few years ago, in Florida, I was talking to a guy who was involved in
litigation with his new boat manufacturer. Seems the bulkheads and other
glassed-in components were separating from the hull structure, and the boat
was basically falling apart.
This was a large boat (55+ footer).

I learned later that the hull had been built, but then sat around for some
long period of time before completing the manufacture of the rest of the
boat. The problems were apparently due to the fact that once fully cured,
the resins used to install the bulkheads, etc. did not properly bond to the
hull. I was told that the process has to be done in a timely manner to
ensure proper bonding.

I don't know, but it made sense, because other boat from the same
manufacturer did not exhibit these problems.

Eisboch

On Aug 17, 6:49*pm, "Eisboch" wrote:
wrote in message

...

On Aug 17, 6:33 pm, wrote:

And you twisted the question, a typical trait of yours. First it was
"what stitch and tape..." now it's "what ocean going.. " you are
toying around while folks are trying to get serious info, but you
obliviously don't know the difference between stitch and tape, and
composite, and skin on frame.. Three different construction methods,
three sets of engineering tricks to provide structural integerity,
although there are also several ways to hybred two or three of the
techniques, which I have done for several dozen boats, How many Epoxy
resin (not polyester) Occoume laminate, and Bi-axle boats have you
built, any size will do, and please provide either pictures, or just
spin it another way. * I just can't stand to see someone passing along
so much wrong information, but I will try again to ignore you...
later..

I am a complete dummy about working with fiberglass and resins, mainly
because my brief employment at Boston Whaler exposed my severe allergic
reaction to the stuff.

But, a few years ago, in Florida, I was talking to a guy who was involved in
litigation with his new boat manufacturer. * Seems the bulkheads and other
glassed-in components were separating from the hull structure, and the boat
was basically falling apart.
This was a large boat (55+ footer).

I learned later that the hull had been built, but then sat around for some
long period of time before completing the manufacture of the rest of the
boat. *The problems were apparently due to the fact that once fully cured,
the resins used to install the bulkheads, etc. did not properly bond to the
hull. * I was told that the process has to be done in a timely manner to
ensure proper bonding.

I don't know, but it made sense, because other boat from the same
manufacturer did not exhibit these problems.

Eisboch

I would have to guess either the surfaces were not prepared properly
as you noted, or they used Polyester Resin as an anhesive as well as
for the laminations.. Polyester is for laminating, Epoxy is an
Adhesive.. They can, and in many cases can be used in conjunction, but
proper care must be taken as you must rely on a mechanical bond as you
can not mix the two and create a chemical bond. I should also note
that there are still many huge manufacturers out there that will
insist that these resins are waterproof and we have had that
discussion before but for this conv, I stipulate that they are...
"until the seal is disrupted", then they just make great barriers to
hold moisture in, which is a great way to delaminate, uh, laminates
and rot wood. Over time folks are learning to use Epoxy as an
adhesive, and to never try to "seal" frame components, paint is much
better at letting the wood breathe.. HTH..

On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 18:25:56 -0400, hk wrote:

What is also ridiculous is a home brew builder claiming his boat is as
strong as a factory built boat. What does your boat weigh, sans engine,
fuel, et cetera? Under 1000 pounds? The last 18-foot boat I had weighed
1650 pounds and was built like a tank. My current boat is 21' and weighs
almost 3000 pounds. I bet you think weight isn't relative to strength in
boats capable of running in heavy water.

Depending on the care taken by the home-builder, he could well have a
more solid boat than a factory boat.
Factory boats *are* hand-made, by factory workers.
Some of them might come in with a hangover, and the QC guy might have
one too.
Many things can wrong during the build process, and get hidden.
The home builder has the advantage of *knowing* nothing went wrong.
How spotty the manufacturing process is can be seen by reading about
Carolina Skiff problems, which I've seen in the forums.
Now, I'm not scared about buying a CS, but if I built a boat myself I
would *know* exactly what I'm getting.
Same holds true with a lot of stuff, including car mechanical work and
woodworking.
Regarding weight, I've read where major brand factory-made boats
all come out at different weights, due to different guys doing the
glass/resin/epoxy work. Sometimes it's a significant difference,
maybe 100-200 pounds on an 18'.
The CS owners were measuring the thickness of their transoms and came
out with a bunch of different measurements, varying an inch or so.
According to CS itself that was "normal" and attributed to different
workers doing the job, and maybe something about their transom board
supplier - can't remember exactly.
As far as weight/strength ratios and heavy water, it's more
complicated than you suggest, otherwise we'd all be in iron or cement
boats.
Since the Tolmans are long-time Alaskan water boats, I wouldn't worry
about their "strength."

--Vic