On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 10:29:09 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting
on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties. The
tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good
chop in the channel. It was a great venue for watching how boats are
handled in chop.
About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and
eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. About 1/4 were
going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. What did amaze me
was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if
they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. These boats had
transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business
in such chop.
My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no
other basis for comparison. What degree of pounding is acceptable?

You still thinking about doing a Bahamas trip with the Tolman?
From your previous posts, I'm guessing the Tolman has been only
in the river. Are you thinking about taking it to some chop to get a
feel on its handling?
I've given some thought to how I would test what is "safe water" if I
get a Carolina Skiff, especially since my boat handing experience is
limited. I've got a feeling that it will happen naturally, since I
really don't want to go looking for trouble. More that I don't want a
10 grand motor dunked in salt water than anything else.
But if you've been motoring the Tolman only in calm waters and plan to
take it to the Bahamas, maybe a little "testing" is in order.

--Vic

Tim wrote:
On Aug 17, 12:29 pm, wrote:
Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting
on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties. The
tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good
chop in the channel. It was a great venue for watching how boats are
handled in chop.
About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and
eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. About 1/4 were
going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. What did amaze me
was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if
they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. These boats had
transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business
in such chop.
My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no
other basis for comparison. What degree of pounding is acceptable?

I really dont' know how to answer that, but I was out in stuff like
this with an 18 ft. runabout powered by a merc 140.

I didn't think it was acceptable at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXh-9TzY-No



A relatively calm day at Matanzas Inlet, where I loved to fish...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YwBNdzQVxw

There's a highway bridge at the mouth of the inlet. Most smart people
ran out under the bridge into the ocean. Being a contrarian, I came to
the inlet the other way, out St. Augustine inlet, and down along the
shore to Matanzas.

Vic Smith wrote:
On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 10:29:09 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting
on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties. The
tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good
chop in the channel. It was a great venue for watching how boats are
handled in chop.
About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and
eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. About 1/4 were
going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. What did amaze me
was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if
they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. These boats had
transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business
in such chop.
My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no
other basis for comparison. What degree of pounding is acceptable?

You still thinking about doing a Bahamas trip with the Tolman?
From your previous posts, I'm guessing the Tolman has been only
in the river. Are you thinking about taking it to some chop to get a
feel on its handling?
I've given some thought to how I would test what is "safe water" if I
get a Carolina Skiff, especially since my boat handing experience is
limited. I've got a feeling that it will happen naturally, since I
really don't want to go looking for trouble. More that I don't want a
10 grand motor dunked in salt water than anything else.
But if you've been motoring the Tolman only in calm waters and plan to
take it to the Bahamas, maybe a little "testing" is in order.

--Vic



Indeed, he ought to get some experience on the mighty waters of Lake
Lanier.

On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 13:45:03 -0400, hk wrote:

one.
I suspect the Tolman is stronger than most Fiberglas boats and I have
never heard of this happening so his answer is useless. Any other
answers on how much pounding is too much?



My answer is correct: it depends upon the strength of the boat and the
fortitude of its occupants. Beyond that, it is a meaningless question.

BTW, if your Tolman is a homebuilt wood boat, it unlikely is "stronger"
than most properly built fiberglass boats of the same size. I could tell
you why, and in some detail, but...what's the point, eh?

Bull.. A properly engineered boat, built by a competent home builder
is evey bit as much of a tool as your mass produced hourly wage built
FG.. Especially a Toleman. But I won't argue with you about it, you
are the king...

This is ridiculous.. the hybrids we make no adays are every bit as
strong as wood stringer, poly boats.. You can't compare what your dad
sold in his shop made of polyester resin, and the epoxy, mahogany,
glass and bi axle made now. It's in the engineering, you can spew all
you want, but you are wrong... The Toleman's in particular are some
beefy boats that go where your Parker never will. I won't let you pull
me into this one, you need to do your homework then come back and we
will talk..

On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 14:17:04 -0400, hk wrote:

wrote:
On Aug 17, 1:45 pm, hk wrote:
wrote:
On Aug 17, 1:35 pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 1:29 pm, wrote:
Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting
on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties. The
tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good
chop in the channel. It was a great venue for watching how boats are
handled in chop.
About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and
eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. About 1/4 were
going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. What did amaze me
was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if
they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. These boats had
transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business
in such chop.
My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no
other basis for comparison. What degree of pounding is acceptable?
According to at least one person here, getting swamped from following
seas because of a low transom is the way it should be.
I suspect HK thinks I am trying to weigh in on some controversy over
cut-away transoms but I never kept track of who was in who in that
one.
I suspect the Tolman is stronger than most Fiberglas boats and I have
never heard of this happening so his answer is useless. Any other
answers on how much pounding is too much?
My answer is correct: it depends upon the strength of the boat and the
fortitude of its occupants. Beyond that, it is a meaningless question.

BTW, if your Tolman is a homebuilt wood boat, it unlikely is "stronger"
than most properly built fiberglass boats of the same size. I could tell
you why, and in some detail, but...what's the point, eh?

I believe my Tolman is "Stronger" than a comparable FG boat because FG
is prone to fatigue failure whereas the Tolman is a composite of wood
and FG. In places where FG might fail due to fatigue there is a
redundancy of wood that does not fatigue fail. Any one of the joints
between the wood on the Tolman is structuraly stronger than the
corresponding place on a FG boat because the joint is very well
reinforced with Biax FG overlaid with two layers of heavy glass. Yes,
you COULD do this on a pure FG boat but how many do? Even then, you
could overbuild a Tolman to be stronger than any pure FG boat simply
by increasing the layers of biax.



Unless they are holed, fiberglass hulls molded in one piece typically do
not "fail." A point of failure for cheaply or improperly built
fiberglass boats is the hull/deck joint, but that is the joint, not the
hull.

Since, apparently, you have not rammed your boat through a really choppy
inlet at high speed, your "knowledge" of how it would handle that stuff
is strictly theoretical. I have run small fiberglass boats through stuff
that I know damned well would bust up a wood boat, even a
fiberglass-sheathed wood boat. I know, because in my youth, I managed to
"loosen" up a few wood and 'glass-sheathed boats until my old man read
me the riot act.

Run your boat real hard through some really choppy inlets and get back
to us. :)

On Aug 17, 2:25*pm, hk wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 10:29:09 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting
on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties. *The
tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good
chop in the channel. *It was a great venue for watching how boats are
handled in chop.
About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and
eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. *About 1/4 were
going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. *What did amaze me
was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if
they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. *These boats had
transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business
in such chop.
My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no
other basis for comparison. *What degree of pounding is acceptable?

You still thinking about doing a Bahamas trip with the Tolman?
From your previous posts, I'm guessing the Tolman has been only
in the river. *Are you thinking about taking it to some chop to get a
feel on its handling?
I've given some thought to how I would test what is "safe water" if I
get a Carolina Skiff, especially since my boat handing experience is
limited. *I've got a feeling that it will happen naturally, since I
really don't want to go looking for trouble. *More that I don't want a
10 grand motor dunked in salt water than anything else.
But if you've been motoring the Tolman only in calm waters and plan to
take it to the Bahamas, maybe a little "testing" is in order.

--Vic

Indeed, he ought to get some experience on the mighty waters of Lake
Lanier.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

See, when you make a comment like "even a sheathed boat..." it let's
us know you don't understand wood/glass composite. In that type of
construction for one, the glass is to protect the wood, not
necessarily to provide more structural integerity. That is provided by
the laminates (plywood) and the framing used to secure it, bent
panels, etc.. not the sheathing. In onother words, when it comes to
this type of construction, you are out of your league...

RMR wrote:
This is ridiculous.. the hybrids we make no adays are every bit as
strong as wood stringer, poly boats.. You can't compare what your dad
sold in his shop made of polyester resin, and the epoxy, mahogany,
glass and bi axle made now. It's in the engineering, you can spew all
you want, but you are wrong... The Toleman's in particular are some
beefy boats that go where your Parker never will. I won't let you pull
me into this one, you need to do your homework then come back and we
will talk..


Consider you probably have never even been close to a Parker, or climbed
aboard one and looked around, I find your comment laughable.

I've seen some stitch-and-glue dories around here, even a couple of
16-footers. I wasn't impressed.

What's the biggest stitch-and-glue heavy duty boat you've built that
regularly plies the ocean?

On Aug 17, 2:25 pm, hk wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 10:29:09 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting
on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties. The
tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good
chop in the channel. It was a great venue for watching how boats are
handled in chop.
About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and
eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. About 1/4 were
going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. What did amaze me
was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if
they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. These boats had
transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business
in such chop.
My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no
other basis for comparison. What degree of pounding is acceptable?

You still thinking about doing a Bahamas trip with the Tolman?
From your previous posts, I'm guessing the Tolman has been only
in the river. Are you thinking about taking it to some chop to get a
feel on its handling?
I've given some thought to how I would test what is "safe water" if I
get a Carolina Skiff, especially since my boat handing experience is
limited. I've got a feeling that it will happen naturally, since I
really don't want to go looking for trouble. More that I don't want a
10 grand motor dunked in salt water than anything else.
But if you've been motoring the Tolman only in calm waters and plan to
take it to the Bahamas, maybe a little "testing" is in order.

--Vic

Indeed, he ought to get some experience on the mighty waters of Lake
Lanier.

Probably 90% of my use of the boat has been in the open Gulf and I
have had her out in heavy chop which is what has led to this
discussion. I simply have no basis for comparison. This past
weekend, i had to slow down to about 12 kts to avoid pounding in 2'
chop (my neighbor said 3' but I dont think so). Is that reasonable?
I have been out in heavy chop trying to get out of The St. marks river
when wind and tide opposed each other, it was nasty.
Harry discusses FG sheatehed wood boats of years ago but those are a
differetn animal than modern epoxy/glass/marine ply construction and
cannot be compared. On those old boats, the resin really did not form
a structural bond with the wood like Epoxy does. You could probably
peel the FG offa the wood. A modern composite epoxy/glass/wood boat
enables the whole thing to be a one piece structure.
I HAVE seen FG boats that have suffered structural failure from a lot
of use. They did not sink but were in the yard for repairs or where
for sale to any sucker. What I have seen is failure of bulkhead to
hull joints. This is because the bulkheads are made separately and
allowed to cure. After they cure, they are tabbed together with glass
and poly resin. Poly does not really stick too well to poly but with
enough surface area you are ok. I have looked at these old boats and
have been able to rip the bulkhead from the hull by hand. OTOH, epoxy
DOES stick to cured epoxy but I know of no production boat builder
that uses epoxy as their primary resin. Even better, on the Tolman,
the designer specifies that one leave the wood near joints unsoaked
with epoxy until one is ready to form the joint. Then, you soak the
wood with epoxy and cover it with biax and then more glass so the wood/
epoxy/biax/glass cloth forms a single piece.
I suspect that what led to the failures I saw in the yards while I was
working on my sailboat was oilcanning of the hull so that this joint
cracked due to fatigue over time. My Tolman does not seem to oilcan
to any perceptible degree. The major problem with her is that she is
simply very light so has little momentum to bash through a wave as my
sailbaot does. The Tolman also has very small deadrise in comparison
to the very few powerboats I have been on.

wrote:
On Aug 17, 2:25 pm, hk wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 10:29:09 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:
Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting
on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties. The
tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good
chop in the channel. It was a great venue for watching how boats are
handled in chop.
About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and
eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. About 1/4 were
going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. What did amaze me
was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if
they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. These boats had
transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business
in such chop.
My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no
other basis for comparison. What degree of pounding is acceptable?
You still thinking about doing a Bahamas trip with the Tolman?
From your previous posts, I'm guessing the Tolman has been only
in the river. Are you thinking about taking it to some chop to get a
feel on its handling?
I've given some thought to how I would test what is "safe water" if I
get a Carolina Skiff, especially since my boat handing experience is
limited. I've got a feeling that it will happen naturally, since I
really don't want to go looking for trouble. More that I don't want a
10 grand motor dunked in salt water than anything else.
But if you've been motoring the Tolman only in calm waters and plan to
take it to the Bahamas, maybe a little "testing" is in order.
--Vic
Indeed, he ought to get some experience on the mighty waters of Lake
Lanier.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

See, when you make a comment like "even a sheathed boat..." it let's
us know you don't understand wood/glass composite. In that type of
construction for one, the glass is to protect the wood, not
necessarily to provide more structural integerity. That is provided by
the laminates (plywood) and the framing used to secure it, bent
panels, etc.. not the sheathing. In onother words, when it comes to
this type of construction, you are out of your league...


Let's see some photos of the larger, heavier duty stitch-and-glue boats
you've built that regularly zip through really choppy, windy inlets at,
say, 20 knots.

On Aug 17, 2:43*pm, hk wrote:
RMR wrote:
This is ridiculous.. the hybrids we make no adays are every bit as
strong as wood stringer, poly boats.. You can't compare what your dad
sold in his shop made of polyester resin, and the epoxy, mahogany,
glass and bi axle made now. It's in the engineering, you can spew all
you want, but you are wrong... The Toleman's in particular are some
beefy boats that go where your Parker never will. I won't let you pull
me into this one, you need to do your homework then come back and we
will talk.. *

Consider you probably have never even been close to a Parker, or climbed
aboard one and looked around, I find your comment laughable.

I've seen some stitch-and-glue dories around here, even a couple of
16-footers. I wasn't impressed.

What's the biggest stitch-and-glue heavy duty boat you've built that
regularly plies the ocean?

Toleman's are not sitch and glue.. you don't know what you don't
know...