wrote:
On Aug 17, 4:10 pm, hk wrote:
wrote:
On Aug 17, 3:26 pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 3:07 pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 2:59 pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 2:47 pm, hk wrote:
wrote:
On Aug 17, 2:25 pm, hk wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 10:29:09 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:
Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting
on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties. The
tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good
chop in the channel. It was a great venue for watching how boats are
handled in chop.
About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and
eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. About 1/4 were
going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. What did amaze me
was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if
they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. These boats had
transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business
in such chop.
My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no
other basis for comparison. What degree of pounding is acceptable?
You still thinking about doing a Bahamas trip with the Tolman?
From your previous posts, I'm guessing the Tolman has been only
in the river. Are you thinking about taking it to some chop to get a
feel on its handling?
I've given some thought to how I would test what is "safe water" if I
get a Carolina Skiff, especially since my boat handing experience is
limited. I've got a feeling that it will happen naturally, since I
really don't want to go looking for trouble. More that I don't want a
10 grand motor dunked in salt water than anything else.
But if you've been motoring the Tolman only in calm waters and plan to
take it to the Bahamas, maybe a little "testing" is in order.
--Vic
Indeed, he ought to get some experience on the mighty waters of Lake
Lanier.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
See, when you make a comment like "even a sheathed boat..." it let's
us know you don't understand wood/glass composite. In that type of
construction for one, the glass is to protect the wood, not
necessarily to provide more structural integerity. That is provided by
the laminates (plywood) and the framing used to secure it, bent
panels, etc.. not the sheathing. In onother words, when it comes to
this type of construction, you are out of your league...
Let's see some photos of the larger, heavier duty stitch-and-glue boats
you've built that regularly zip through really choppy, windy inlets at,
say, 20 knots.
I cannot discuss Parker boats because I have never seen one up close.
However, if HK will look at the history of Tolman's, he will see that
they were designed for rough conditions of AK for use as commercial
fishing vessels. I doubt they do 20 kts in heavy chop because they
were not designed for that. I built mine purely on a whim knowing
nothing at all about power boats. My comparisons are therefor
entirely theoretical.
BTW, Tolmans ARE stitch and glue along the midjoint of the hull but
nowhere else.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Technically, skin on frame. Along the keel iirc, the frame longitudal,
is of layered glass, just like many FG boats.. Structure is created by
angled and bent skin material (laminate)... The engineering and
resulting structual integerity is what some don't really understand...
Knowing nothing about parker boats, I googled them and looked over
their FAQ. Look at this.
"Why does Parker choose a wood stringer system over a fiberglass
stringer system?
With constant use over time, the low shear strength of foam core
fiberglass stringers becomes evident. The foam begins to split and
break down, allowing the glass skin to flex independently. The
eventual result is hull failure. A wood stringer system maintains its
strength without flexing. In order to achieve adequate strength in a
fiberglass stringer system without injecting a core, it would be too
heavy and expensive to produce. Mass (thickness) is the only way to
provide strength in fiberglass stringers and unless a core (foam) is
injected into the glass stringer system, there simply is not adequate
strength. All the best manufacturers of small fiberglass boats agree
that properly constructed boats begin with marine grade plywood
stringers which are encapsulated and hand rolled in fiberglass and
resin. Parker's solid fir plywood stringer system continues to give
customers the strongest, toughest and safest fiberglass boats built.
When boats are built properly, there is no need for gimmicks."
Parker's stringers are built in eggcrate fashion...with longitudinal and
latitudinal members. I believe Grady's are built using approximately the
same method. Parkers also have three piece, not two piece, hulls. It
makes a difference.

So, Harry, where do we disagree? I still say that my Tolman for its
size is "stronger" than any production boat. BTW, the transoms of
parkers are also wood for the very reasons I have discussed.


You have no basis on which to make that claim, though, either
theoretical or empirical.

On Aug 17, 2:17*pm, hk wrote:
wrote:
On Aug 17, 1:45 pm, hk wrote:
wrote:
On Aug 17, 1:35 pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 1:29 pm, wrote:
Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting
on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties. *The
tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good
chop in the channel. *It was a great venue for watching how boats are
handled in chop.
About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and
eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. *About 1/4 were
going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. *What did amaze me
was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if
they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. *These boats had
transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business
in such chop.
My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no
other basis for comparison. *What degree of pounding is acceptable?
According to at least one person here, getting swamped from following
seas because of a low transom is the way it should be.
I suspect HK thinks I am trying to weigh in on some controversy over
cut-away transoms but I never kept track of who was in who in that
one.
I suspect the Tolman is stronger than most Fiberglas boats and I have
never heard of this happening so his answer is useless. *Any other
answers on how much pounding is too much?
My answer is correct: it depends upon the strength of the boat and the
fortitude of its occupants. Beyond that, it is a meaningless question.

BTW, if your Tolman is a homebuilt wood boat, it unlikely is "stronger"
than most properly built fiberglass boats of the same size. I could tell
you why, and in some detail, but...what's the point, eh?

I believe my Tolman is "Stronger" than a comparable FG boat because FG
is prone to fatigue failure whereas the Tolman is a composite of wood
and FG. *In places where FG might fail due to fatigue there is a
redundancy of wood that does not fatigue fail. *Any one of the joints
between the wood on the Tolman is structuraly stronger than the
corresponding place on a FG boat because the joint is very well
reinforced with Biax FG overlaid with two layers of heavy glass. *Yes,
you COULD do this on a pure FG boat but how many do? *Even then, you
could overbuild a Tolman to be stronger than any pure FG boat simply
by increasing the layers of biax.

Unless they are holed, fiberglass hulls molded in one piece typically do
not "fail." A point of failure for cheaply or improperly built
fiberglass boats is the hull/deck joint, but that is the joint, not the
hull.

Bull****. Plain and simple.

Since, apparently, you have not rammed your boat through a really choppy
inlet at high speed, your "knowledge" of how it would handle that stuff
is strictly theoretical. I have run small fiberglass boats through stuff
that I know damned well would bust up a wood boat, even a
fiberglass-sheathed wood boat. I know, because in my youth, I managed to
"loosen" up a few wood and 'glass-sheathed boats until my old man read
me the riot act.

How do YOU know what type of conditions he's had his boat in?

Run your boat real hard through some really choppy inlets and get back
to us. * :)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Inlets.......yep, you should see some REAL inlet blasting. Go to CA,
get with Calif Bill, and take that Parker out and back into Fort
Bragg.

On Aug 17, 2:25*pm, hk wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 10:29:09 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting
on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties. *The
tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good
chop in the channel. *It was a great venue for watching how boats are
handled in chop.
About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and
eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. *About 1/4 were
going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. *What did amaze me
was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if
they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. *These boats had
transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business
in such chop.
My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no
other basis for comparison. *What degree of pounding is acceptable?

You still thinking about doing a Bahamas trip with the Tolman?
From your previous posts, I'm guessing the Tolman has been only
in the river. *Are you thinking about taking it to some chop to get a
feel on its handling?
I've given some thought to how I would test what is "safe water" if I
get a Carolina Skiff, especially since my boat handing experience is
limited. *I've got a feeling that it will happen naturally, since I
really don't want to go looking for trouble. *More that I don't want a
10 grand motor dunked in salt water than anything else.
But if you've been motoring the Tolman only in calm waters and plan to
take it to the Bahamas, maybe a little "testing" is in order.

--Vic

Indeed, he ought to get some experience on the mighty waters of Lake
Lanier.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'll bet money that I've seen Lanier as ugly as your protected bay
waters.

On Aug 17, 2:32*pm, RMR wrote:
This is ridiculous.. the hybrids we make no adays are every bit as
strong as wood stringer, poly boats.. You can't compare what your dad
sold in his shop made of polyester resin, and the epoxy, mahogany,
glass and bi axle made now. It's in the engineering, you can spew all
you want, but you are wrong... The Toleman's in particular are some
beefy boats that go where your Parker never will. I won't let you pull
me into this one, you need to do your homework then come back and we
will talk.. *



On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 14:17:04 -0400, hk wrote:
wrote:
On Aug 17, 1:45 pm, hk wrote:
wrote:
On Aug 17, 1:35 pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 1:29 pm, wrote:
Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting
on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties. *The
tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good
chop in the channel. *It was a great venue for watching how boats are
handled in chop.
About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and
eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. *About 1/4 were
going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. *What did amaze me
was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if
they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. *These boats had
transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business
in such chop.
My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no
other basis for comparison. *What degree of pounding is acceptable?
According to at least one person here, getting swamped from following
seas because of a low transom is the way it should be.
I suspect HK thinks I am trying to weigh in on some controversy over
cut-away transoms but I never kept track of who was in who in that
one.
I suspect the Tolman is stronger than most Fiberglas boats and I have
never heard of this happening so his answer is useless. *Any other
answers on how much pounding is too much?
My answer is correct: it depends upon the strength of the boat and the
fortitude of its occupants. Beyond that, it is a meaningless question..

BTW, if your Tolman is a homebuilt wood boat, it unlikely is "stronger"
than most properly built fiberglass boats of the same size. I could tell
you why, and in some detail, but...what's the point, eh?

I believe my Tolman is "Stronger" than a comparable FG boat because FG
is prone to fatigue failure whereas the Tolman is a composite of wood
and FG. *In places where FG might fail due to fatigue there is a
redundancy of wood that does not fatigue fail. *Any one of the joints
between the wood on the Tolman is structuraly stronger than the
corresponding place on a FG boat because the joint is very well
reinforced with Biax FG overlaid with two layers of heavy glass. *Yes,
you COULD do this on a pure FG boat but how many do? *Even then, you
could overbuild a Tolman to be stronger than any pure FG boat simply
by increasing the layers of biax.

Unless they are holed, fiberglass hulls molded in one piece typically do
not "fail." A point of failure for cheaply or improperly built
fiberglass boats is the hull/deck joint, but that is the joint, not the
hull.

Since, apparently, you have not rammed your boat through a really choppy
inlet at high speed, your "knowledge" of how it would handle that stuff
is strictly theoretical. I have run small fiberglass boats through stuff
that I know damned well would bust up a wood boat, even a
fiberglass-sheathed wood boat. I know, because in my youth, I managed to
"loosen" up a few wood and 'glass-sheathed boats until my old man read
me the riot act.

Run your boat real hard through some really choppy inlets and get back
to us. * :)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

His dad never had a marina. His dad also didn't make a trans-Atlantic
trip in a runabout, nor did he get a fireboat welcome in NYC.
Also, if this was true, according to Harry and JimH, his dad should
have been in jail for child endangerment allowing him to take those
boats out like that.

On Aug 17, 2:43*pm, hk wrote:
RMR wrote:
This is ridiculous.. the hybrids we make no adays are every bit as
strong as wood stringer, poly boats.. You can't compare what your dad
sold in his shop made of polyester resin, and the epoxy, mahogany,
glass and bi axle made now. It's in the engineering, you can spew all
you want, but you are wrong... The Toleman's in particular are some
beefy boats that go where your Parker never will. I won't let you pull
me into this one, you need to do your homework then come back and we
will talk.. *

Consider you probably have never even been close to a Parker, or climbed
aboard one and looked around, I find your comment laughable.

Then your comment about a certain Tolman is equally laughable if
you've not seen it.

I've seen some stitch-and-glue dories around here, even a couple of
16-footers. I wasn't impressed.

There are small dories that are wood handbuilt that will still be
around when you're Parker is dead.

What's the biggest stitch-and-glue heavy duty boat you've built that
regularly plies the ocean?

To think that someone can't build a wood boat at least as strong as a
commercial company (who is trying to make a profit) that makes thin
F.G. boats is stupid and absurd.

On Aug 17, 4:32 pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 2:43 pm, hk wrote:

RMR wrote:
This is ridiculous.. the hybrids we make no adays are every bit as
strong as wood stringer, poly boats.. You can't compare what your dad
sold in his shop made of polyester resin, and the epoxy, mahogany,
glass and bi axle made now. It's in the engineering, you can spew all
you want, but you are wrong... The Toleman's in particular are some
beefy boats that go where your Parker never will. I won't let you pull
me into this one, you need to do your homework then come back and we
will talk..

Consider you probably have never even been close to a Parker, or climbed
aboard one and looked around, I find your comment laughable.

Then your comment about a certain Tolman is equally laughable if
you've not seen it.



I've seen some stitch-and-glue dories around here, even a couple of
16-footers. I wasn't impressed.

There are small dories that are wood handbuilt that will still be
around when you're Parker is dead.



What's the biggest stitch-and-glue heavy duty boat you've built that
regularly plies the ocean?

To think that someone can't build a wood boat at least as strong as a
commercial company (who is trying to make a profit) that makes thin
F.G. boats is stupid and absurd.

I believe that empiracally and theoretically, that a joint made using
epoxy/glass/biax/epoxy saturated wood is stronger than a poly-resin
boat built with poly-glass/wood stringer construction.

On Aug 17, 4:48 pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 4:32 pm, wrote:



On Aug 17, 2:43 pm, hk wrote:

RMR wrote:
This is ridiculous.. the hybrids we make no adays are every bit as
strong as wood stringer, poly boats.. You can't compare what your dad
sold in his shop made of polyester resin, and the epoxy, mahogany,
glass and bi axle made now. It's in the engineering, you can spew all
you want, but you are wrong... The Toleman's in particular are some
beefy boats that go where your Parker never will. I won't let you pull
me into this one, you need to do your homework then come back and we
will talk..

Consider you probably have never even been close to a Parker, or climbed
aboard one and looked around, I find your comment laughable.

Then your comment about a certain Tolman is equally laughable if
you've not seen it.

I've seen some stitch-and-glue dories around here, even a couple of
16-footers. I wasn't impressed.

There are small dories that are wood handbuilt that will still be
around when you're Parker is dead.

What's the biggest stitch-and-glue heavy duty boat you've built that
regularly plies the ocean?

To think that someone can't build a wood boat at least as strong as a
commercial company (who is trying to make a profit) that makes thin
F.G. boats is stupid and absurd.

I believe that empiracally and theoretically, that a joint made using
epoxy/glass/biax/epoxy saturated wood is stronger than a poly-resin
boat built with poly-glass/wood stringer construction.

Even the best production boat company cannot put as much work into a
boat as a home builder can. The home builder can afford to use the
best materials and lavish time on each joint to maximize strength and
when it is done decide to do it over whereas once the production boat
company decides its profit margin is going down, so do invisible
improvements.

wrote:
On Aug 17, 4:48 pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 4:32 pm, wrote:



On Aug 17, 2:43 pm, hk wrote:
RMR wrote:
This is ridiculous.. the hybrids we make no adays are every bit as
strong as wood stringer, poly boats.. You can't compare what your dad
sold in his shop made of polyester resin, and the epoxy, mahogany,
glass and bi axle made now. It's in the engineering, you can spew all
you want, but you are wrong... The Toleman's in particular are some
beefy boats that go where your Parker never will. I won't let you pull
me into this one, you need to do your homework then come back and we
will talk..
Consider you probably have never even been close to a Parker, or climbed
aboard one and looked around, I find your comment laughable.
Then your comment about a certain Tolman is equally laughable if
you've not seen it.
I've seen some stitch-and-glue dories around here, even a couple of
16-footers. I wasn't impressed.
There are small dories that are wood handbuilt that will still be
around when you're Parker is dead.
What's the biggest stitch-and-glue heavy duty boat you've built that
regularly plies the ocean?
To think that someone can't build a wood boat at least as strong as a
commercial company (who is trying to make a profit) that makes thin
F.G. boats is stupid and absurd.
I believe that empiracally and theoretically, that a joint made using
epoxy/glass/biax/epoxy saturated wood is stronger than a poly-resin
boat built with poly-glass/wood stringer construction.

Even the best production boat company cannot put as much work into a
boat as a home builder can. The home builder can afford to use the
best materials and lavish time on each joint to maximize strength and
when it is done decide to do it over whereas once the production boat
company decides its profit margin is going down, so do invisible
improvements.



I wouldn't leave the marina in the typical home built boat. I've seen
lots of 'em. I'm not saying a careful knowledgeable builder can't do a
fine job, because I have seen examples of those, too. But typically, the
homebuilts I have seen are poorly constructed out of crappy materials.

On Aug 17, 5:09 pm, hk wrote:
wrote:
On Aug 17, 4:48 pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 4:32 pm, wrote:

On Aug 17, 2:43 pm, hk wrote:
RMR wrote:
This is ridiculous.. the hybrids we make no adays are every bit as
strong as wood stringer, poly boats.. You can't compare what your dad
sold in his shop made of polyester resin, and the epoxy, mahogany,
glass and bi axle made now. It's in the engineering, you can spew all
you want, but you are wrong... The Toleman's in particular are some
beefy boats that go where your Parker never will. I won't let you pull
me into this one, you need to do your homework then come back and we
will talk..
Consider you probably have never even been close to a Parker, or climbed
aboard one and looked around, I find your comment laughable.
Then your comment about a certain Tolman is equally laughable if
you've not seen it.
I've seen some stitch-and-glue dories around here, even a couple of
16-footers. I wasn't impressed.
There are small dories that are wood handbuilt that will still be
around when you're Parker is dead.
What's the biggest stitch-and-glue heavy duty boat you've built that
regularly plies the ocean?
To think that someone can't build a wood boat at least as strong as a
commercial company (who is trying to make a profit) that makes thin
F.G. boats is stupid and absurd.
I believe that empiracally and theoretically, that a joint made using
epoxy/glass/biax/epoxy saturated wood is stronger than a poly-resin
boat built with poly-glass/wood stringer construction.

Even the best production boat company cannot put as much work into a
boat as a home builder can. The home builder can afford to use the
best materials and lavish time on each joint to maximize strength and
when it is done decide to do it over whereas once the production boat
company decides its profit margin is going down, so do invisible
improvements.

I wouldn't leave the marina in the typical home built boat. I've seen
lots of 'em. I'm not saying a careful knowledgeable builder can't do a
fine job, because I have seen examples of those, too. But typically, the
homebuilts I have seen are poorly constructed out of crappy materials.

Memo to self: Cross HK offa invite list.

On Aug 17, 5:45*pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 5:09 pm, hk wrote:





wrote:
On Aug 17, 4:48 pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 4:32 pm, wrote:

On Aug 17, 2:43 pm, hk wrote:
RMR wrote:
This is ridiculous.. the hybrids we make no adays are every bit as
strong as wood stringer, poly boats.. You can't compare what your dad
sold in his shop made of polyester resin, and the epoxy, mahogany,
glass and bi axle made now. It's in the engineering, you can spew all
you want, but you are wrong... The Toleman's in particular are some
beefy boats that go where your Parker never will. I won't let you pull
me into this one, you need to do your homework then come back and we
will talk..
Consider you probably have never even been close to a Parker, or climbed
aboard one and looked around, I find your comment laughable.
Then your comment about a certain Tolman is equally laughable if
you've not seen it.
I've seen some stitch-and-glue dories around here, even a couple of
16-footers. I wasn't impressed.
There are small dories that are wood handbuilt that will still be
around when you're Parker is dead.
What's the biggest stitch-and-glue heavy duty boat you've built that
regularly plies the ocean?
To think that someone can't build a wood boat at least as strong as a
commercial company (who is trying to make a profit) that makes thin
F.G. boats is stupid and absurd.
I believe that empiracally and theoretically, that a joint made using
epoxy/glass/biax/epoxy saturated wood is stronger than a poly-resin
boat built with poly-glass/wood stringer construction.

Even the best production boat company cannot put as much work into a
boat as a home builder can. *The home builder can afford to use the
best materials and lavish time on each joint to maximize strength and
when it is done decide to do it over whereas once the production boat
company decides its profit margin is going down, so do invisible
improvements.

I wouldn't leave the marina in the typical home built boat. I've seen
lots of 'em. I'm not saying a careful knowledgeable builder can't do a
fine job, because I have seen examples of those, too. But typically, the
homebuilts I have seen are poorly constructed out of crappy materials.

Memo to self: *Cross HK offa invite list.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you know the history, he was really trolling folks like myself who
actually know a little about composite, skin on frame boats, try KF
the guy, and Genes server, and life will be a lot easier.. I love the
tolmans, I always wanted to build a Simmons Sea Skiff for "out east"
here.