BoatBanter.com - Cold Weather/Water Question

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Keenan Wellar wrote:

in article , Wilko at
wrote on 1/13/05 4:43 PM:

I use a wetsuit with a seperate drytop all
year around, both when it's freezing in the winter and when it's in the
middle of the summer.

Would it be possible for you to post links to the exact (or similar)
garments that make up your entire winter outfit? Sounds like a good system.

Let's see if I can find some links...

I have the Camaro 5mm (yamamoto neoprene) paddling long john wetsuit for
winter paddling (dunno if it's still made, didn't find it on the
http://camaro.at manufacturers website, but it's still for sale on the
http://kanoshop.nl website). The top layer of this neoprene is mostly
"rubberised" instead of covered with some kind of woven fabric, as
usual. Makes the neoprene withstand cold wind better.

When it's not so cold, I also wear my D2 equipment wetsuit with added
knee protection pads:
http://wilko.webzone.ru/soc-a12.jpg

I tend to wear one layer of polypro long sleeve shirt under my wetsuit
(Brand name Helly Hansen, model Stripe Crew) and depending upon the
temperature up to three more over my wetsuit and under my drytop.

I tend to wear a polypro long pants underneath it in winter, and only
shorts under it in the summer.

I tend to use Hiko paddling booties, I have two pairs, in two sizes (one
pair bigger size for being able to wear two layers of socks inside). I
bought several pairs of the cheapest possible socks at the Wibra cheap
clothes store, which are made of only artificial fibres that don't hold
water well.

Over my drytop I always wear Lotus neoprene sleeve elbow guards which
have the nice side-effect that they cover most of my lower arms with an
additional layer of neoprene, which insulates well:

http://wilko.webzone.ru/soc-04.jpg

(The top in this picture is a Palm drytop with dubble tunnel, which
keeps the neoprene tunnel of the spraydeck nicely in place, and most of
the water out of my boat.)

My PFD is a Wildwater Explorer Leader, with plenty of buoyancy, which
covers the front and the sides and which has an extra insulating effect.
http://moo.servicesports.co.uk/service/item/428

The insulating effect can be seen here where the snow on it doesn't melt
despite my body heat:
http://wilko.webzone.ru/ott-5.jpg

For my helmet I picked the Grateful Heads "Dropzone"helmet, which has no
unnecessary holes in the top through which cold water can come in or
body heat can escape. I also outfitted it with additional foam and tight
enough straps so that there is very little possibility for a lot of cold
water to get in between my head and helmet.

Some of my friends wear neoprene hoods under their helmet in the winter.
Although I have one, I never wear it. I don't flip very often during the
winter. :-)

In the winter I tend to wear pre-bent open palm neoprene mittens, which
I have three pairs of, in different thicknesses. My favourite brand
isn't made any more, but there seem to be several other brands on the
market now.

My girlfriend showing her very similar neoprene open palm mittens:

http://wilko.webzone.ru/w-les10.jpg

The drytop she is wearing here is the same model as one of my drytops,
of a German brand, "kayaker.de", but their site has hiccups when I go to
the "zubehoer" - "bekleidung und mehr" page. It just shows a blank page
with that text, not the clothes. :-(

That setup works well for me throughout the year, and depending upon the
weather and water temperature, I add or substract layers of polypro.

Granted, when I'm only paddling at a local playspot in the heat of
central European summer in my playboat, I do change to a neoprene shorts
every once in a while. :-)

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

"Wilko" wrote in message
...

That setup works well for me throughout the year, and depending upon the
weather and water temperature, I add or substract layers of polypro.

Awww, give it up Wilko, and just get a drysuit!!

:-)

--riverman
(quickly donning his abestos underwear)

Excuse the top-posting, but I just wanted to say THANKS and I am checking it
all out. Marvelous!

Keenan
gokayaking.ca

"Wilko" wrote in message
...
Keenan Wellar wrote:

in article , Wilko at

wrote on 1/13/05 4:43 PM:

I use a wetsuit with a seperate drytop all
year around, both when it's freezing in the winter and when it's in the
middle of the summer.

Would it be possible for you to post links to the exact (or similar)
garments that make up your entire winter outfit? Sounds like a good
system.

Let's see if I can find some links...

I have the Camaro 5mm (yamamoto neoprene) paddling long john wetsuit for
winter paddling (dunno if it's still made, didn't find it on the
http://camaro.at manufacturers website, but it's still for sale on the
http://kanoshop.nl website). The top layer of this neoprene is mostly
"rubberised" instead of covered with some kind of woven fabric, as
usual. Makes the neoprene withstand cold wind better.

When it's not so cold, I also wear my D2 equipment wetsuit with added
knee protection pads:
http://wilko.webzone.ru/soc-a12.jpg

I tend to wear one layer of polypro long sleeve shirt under my wetsuit
(Brand name Helly Hansen, model Stripe Crew) and depending upon the
temperature up to three more over my wetsuit and under my drytop.

I tend to wear a polypro long pants underneath it in winter, and only
shorts under it in the summer.

I tend to use Hiko paddling booties, I have two pairs, in two sizes (one
pair bigger size for being able to wear two layers of socks inside). I
bought several pairs of the cheapest possible socks at the Wibra cheap
clothes store, which are made of only artificial fibres that don't hold
water well.

Over my drytop I always wear Lotus neoprene sleeve elbow guards which
have the nice side-effect that they cover most of my lower arms with an
additional layer of neoprene, which insulates well:

http://wilko.webzone.ru/soc-04.jpg

(The top in this picture is a Palm drytop with dubble tunnel, which keeps
the neoprene tunnel of the spraydeck nicely in place, and most of the
water out of my boat.)

My PFD is a Wildwater Explorer Leader, with plenty of buoyancy, which
covers the front and the sides and which has an extra insulating effect.
http://moo.servicesports.co.uk/service/item/428

The insulating effect can be seen here where the snow on it doesn't melt
despite my body heat:
http://wilko.webzone.ru/ott-5.jpg

For my helmet I picked the Grateful Heads "Dropzone"helmet, which has no
unnecessary holes in the top through which cold water can come in or
body heat can escape. I also outfitted it with additional foam and tight
enough straps so that there is very little possibility for a lot of cold
water to get in between my head and helmet.

Some of my friends wear neoprene hoods under their helmet in the winter.
Although I have one, I never wear it. I don't flip very often during the
winter. :-)

In the winter I tend to wear pre-bent open palm neoprene mittens, which
I have three pairs of, in different thicknesses. My favourite brand
isn't made any more, but there seem to be several other brands on the
market now.

My girlfriend showing her very similar neoprene open palm mittens:

http://wilko.webzone.ru/w-les10.jpg

The drytop she is wearing here is the same model as one of my drytops, of
a German brand, "kayaker.de", but their site has hiccups when I go to the
"zubehoer" - "bekleidung und mehr" page. It just shows a blank page with
that text, not the clothes. :-(

That setup works well for me throughout the year, and depending upon the
weather and water temperature, I add or substract layers of polypro.

Granted, when I'm only paddling at a local playspot in the heat of
central European summer in my playboat, I do change to a neoprene shorts
every once in a while. :-)

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

riverman wrote:
"Wilko" wrote in message
...

That setup works well for me throughout the year, and depending upon the
weather and water temperature, I add or substract layers of polypro.

Awww, give it up Wilko, and just get a drysuit!!

Nah thanks, I'd rather spend my money on something less expensive like a
new computer! ;-)

(quickly donning his abestos underwear)

That will probably be even more expensive than that drysuit! ;-)

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

Wilko wrote:
riverman wrote:
..... snip

(quickly donning his abestos underwear)

That will probably be even more expensive than that drysuit! ;-)

Or a new computer.

That Asbestos stuff requires a Federal EPA abatement program to take it
off. This could prove interesting though. Knowing the abatetee a
little, it would probably depend on the number and gender mix of the
abateters. Then again, he would sure have some good material for one of
his yarns. I will look forward to that chapter! :-) TnT

But then you can't help yourself and keep coming back for more? I
realize that you and I got started on a wash cycle, so I would hope
that all our hang ups can be drip dry, and move on to happier times. I
find that I get along fine with most folks and actually everyone seems
to have a good time, sometimes even at my expense.

Last time things got a little intense and at your expense. But that was
last time and a long time ago, so I am ready to move on and talk
paddling sort of stuff. I again was glad to see you hanging around here
and am interested in your input regarding your experience as a paddler.
I still envy you living up there in that paddling haven, and even
wonder if you got moved to the waterfront. Sounded great, and I would
look forward to more trip reports when all you have to do is go is out
your back door!

I would also say that I found Wilko's approach and philosophy to cold
water gear helpful. I prefer passive safety devices that work no matter
my condition. With that in view, I picked up a Farmer John and
jacket, with a paddle shirt on top, and a spray jacket over that.
Neoprene hood and helmet for head gear, and NRS boots for feet. Look
forward to trying it out. TnT

I don't know how many die, I just don't want to be one of them if I
have anything to say or do about it! TnT

I don't know how many die, I just don't want to be one of them, or my
friends, if I
have anything to say or do about it! TnT

Tinkerntom wrote:
Brian and Wilko, you both represent alot of diverse paddling
experience. I found this article which was originally released as a
white page news brief by Bare, significant for the kayaking community.

http://tinyurl.com/6wozp

There's one word for the dry suit portion of this article. That word is
"bull****".

Bare position is that the Drysuit does not belong in a kayak. Even
though it gives more cold water protection, it also requires more
maintenance and training, which the recreational kayaker is probably
not prepared to provide. Granted, there are high performance expert
kayakers who can benefit from the higher performance, but the high
performance is trumped by the higher risk inherant in drysuits.

Absolute nonsense! How much training does it take to operate a friggin'
zipper? Maintenance consists of rinsing it (which you should do with a
wetsuit, too), lubing the zippers once in a while (I probably do it 2-3
times a year), powdering the seals when they need it (it requires
knowing how to twist the cap on a talcum powder bottle) and perhaps
applying a bit of 303 to the outside of the seals periodically (can you
operate a spray bottle and a paper towel?). It ain't rocket science!

Especially consider that many rec paddlers would use the drysuit in
conditions that don't require the greater cold water protection, just
to stay dry and comfortable, and the risk is even more unjustifiable.
Wilko I am with you on this one!

First off, I've yet to meet a "rec paddler" who would spring for a dry
suit, so this argument is a red herring at best. Regardless, no one
wears a dry suit - or a wet suit for that matter - if conditions don't
warrant it. It's a completely bogus premise.

Bare is basically saying that come a liability suit, They have
announced to the world, that they would not be liable for a kayaker
being injured or worse, while wearing a drysuit, since they do not
approve use of their drysuit while kayaking.

Well whoop-de-do for them! Kokatat, Stohlquist, Ravenspring, OS Systems,
Palm and NRS, just to name a few, have no problem with selling dry suits
to kayakers. Apparently their customers are complaining or suing,
either. If Bare cannot or chooses not to compete in that marketplace,
who cares? They're ****ing into the wind with this argument.

Drysuits were designed for
diving where the diver has a breathing apparatus, and goes through
intense certification in order to dive, and the equipment is constantly
scrutinized for mtce requirements.

That goes to show how little you know about diving, but if you're not a
diver, that's understandable. I'm also a certified scuba diver. I don't
own a dry suit and have never done any diving in one. However, I can buy
one off the rack and go diving in it tomorrow if I choose to. I haven't
been diving in at least ten years, but I still have my "C" card and I
could get tanks tomorrow and go diving if I choose to. Getting into
diving does require training and I applaud the industry for
standardizing on that business model. However, once you're "in the
door", there's little regulation.

The crossover application is not approved by Bare.

Again, who cares and who needs them? It's one company's opinion against
the rest of the world.

I realize there are now dedicated kayaking drysuits,
but that does not change the basic technology. The elimination of vent
valves, does not make them inherantly safer.

Actually, there is a big difference between diving dry suits and
kayaking dry suits. Either could be used for kayaking, although the
stiffer, non-breathable diving suits would be much less comfortable,
that the lighter, breathable kayaking designs. A kayaking suit cannot be
used for diving, for one good reason; diving dry suits are not just just
for immersion protection, they also function as part of the diver's
buoyancy system. Additionally, in order for a dry suit to insulate at
depth, it must be partially inflated with air and adjusted as the
diver's depth changes. The relief valves must be kept clean and be
tested every time you go out in order to insure that they're working
properly. This is CRITCAL to a dry suit diver's safety! That adds a
substantial layer of complexity to the operation of the suit compared to
one that will never be used below the surface of the water. In that
regard, it is an apples-to-oranges comparison.

And I would wonder what
the manufactures liability would be if challenged in court after an
accident.

Well, I don't see kayaking dry suit manufacturers getting sued left and
right, do you?

I am a newbie to all this, and at one point considered getting a
drysuit. The mystic of going out in cold water, and rolling the kayak
like an Eskimo is powerful motivator for getting a drysuit. However,
upon further consideration, just because I can afford the technology,
does not mean I have any business buying a drysuit and putting myself
in a life treating situation that requires it. There is alot more
training and experience that I should gain before that day.

That's a sound judgment. By all means, you must acquire the skills
necessary to kayak safely in ANY water before you consider the extra
risks that cold water adds. However, a dry suit does not increase your
risk when paddling cold water, it dramatically DECREASES it.

I've swam in my dry suit for 20 minutes or more in 40 degree water, when
training other paddlers in rescue techniques. There is NO wetsuit that I
could actually paddle in that would have protected me from becoming
seriously hypothermic under those conditions. Yet, it was no problem in
a dry suit.

Our club requires dry suits on all winter paddles. We've had occasional
capsizes and swims on winter trips and in cold water workshops (the
latest was last weekend). Dry suits literally make the difference
between these incidents being potentially life-threatening events and
being merely interesting anecdotes to laugh about over beers and pizza
after the trip. Until you actually experience the difference, I don't
expect you to fully understand it, but it's absolutely true.

The use of a wetsuit is self regulating in that it is a passive device
that works to a certain temperature no matter the expertise of the
paddler, or the general condition of the suit. If it is to cold for the
wetsuit, the paddler should stay out of the water.

If that paddler doesn't possess the necessary skills to paddle safely in
cold water, absolutely. But if that paddler is skilled enough, why
shouldn't he/she buy a dry suit and paddle in cold water, if they choose
to?

It seems to me for someone like me, a newbie, and I don't know Sparks
experience, that you experts should answer his question, not with a
discussion of the merits of the two systems.

It's important that this information is available to people who need it.
What are we supposed to do, tell him that it's OK for us to paddle in
cold water, but he's not allowed to? Are we then to refuse to provide
him with information that may directly affect his safety if he does
choose to take the risk? How is that a service to anyone?

But by recognizing the
limits and aknowledging the risks involved in extreme cold water
paddling, and kill the Mystic. Just my two cents worth. TnT

First off, if you mean "mystique", there is none. A dry suit is a piece
of clothing, not a religious icon. It's safety gear, just like a PFD,
signal flares or a VHF radio. All of them require some specialized
knowledge to use them properly, but none is difficult to use and none
require any formal training. As the saying goes, RTFM.

Do yourself a favor and forget the bull**** that Bare is feeding the
public. They're a dive suit manufacturer that doesn't want people to use
their products for paddling. Big deal, it's nothing more that someone
with a personal ax to grind. It's still ridiculous, since I know several
people who have used diving dry suits for paddling without problems.
After buying breathable kayaking dry suits, they all agreed that they
were more comfortable, but there are no technical problems with using
diving dry suits for paddling. However, if Bare wants to whine about it,
it's their prerogative to do so.

It also sounds like the person making those ridiculous arguments has
never set foot in a kayak. You're getting your information from a
tainted source. I suggest that when the subject is kayaking, you get
your info from people who know that subject.

Secondly, we're answering Sparks' question. You're correct that
unprepared people shouldn't paddle in cold water, regardless of the gear
they may own. However, that wasn't the question. There's only so much
sermonizing that we can do without insulting everyone who asks about
wetsuits and dry suits. Hell, it's commendable that he even asked in the
first place, as there are a lot of dimbulbs out on the water who are
completely unprepared and don't even have a clue that they're risking
their lives!

It's up to each of us to decide if we're skilled enough to take the
risks associated with cold water paddling. You've made what seems like a
wise choice for yourself, given your skill level. I applaud you for
that. However, I really think you've gotten this whole wetsuit/dry suit
thing completely backwards in your mind after receiving some bad
information.