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Cold Weather/Water Question
Greetings,
Some friends and I are thinking about doing some winter time kayaking. This will be the first time we have paddled in the cold water (Indiana..pretty chilly right now). What can you recommend for clothing? I really cant afford to go out and buy an expensive dry suit (the ones I found on the internet were $400 and up ). We really want to go this winter but...if not being able to afford a drysuit is going to be a safety concern then I will wait until spring : ) Anyone have any cheaper alternatives? Thanks! Sparks |
What is the water temp and where exactly are you planning on being from
shore? If you are going down a river or close to shore, and can't see any situation where if all else failed and you couldn't get to shore relatively quickly, a heavy wetsuit might be feasible. Here is one exposure table: http://www.universalscuba.com/page49.html "sparks" wrote in message ... Greetings, Some friends and I are thinking about doing some winter time kayaking. This will be the first time we have paddled in the cold water (Indiana..pretty chilly right now). What can you recommend for clothing? I really cant afford to go out and buy an expensive dry suit (the ones I found on the internet were $400 and up ). We really want to go this winter but...if not being able to afford a drysuit is going to be a safety concern then I will wait until spring : ) Anyone have any cheaper alternatives? Thanks! Sparks |
sparks wrote:
Greetings, Some friends and I are thinking about doing some winter time kayaking. This will be the first time we have paddled in the cold water (Indiana..pretty chilly right now). What can you recommend for clothing? I really cant afford to go out and buy an expensive dry suit (the ones I found on the internet were $400 and up ). We really want to go this winter but...if not being able to afford a drysuit is going to be a safety concern then I will wait until spring : ) Anyone have any cheaper alternatives? Thanks! Sparks Sorry to disappoint you Sparks, but in the conditions you describe, a dry suit is a must. A wetsuit to meet your needs would be too thick to paddle in and insufficent once you were immersed. You may be able to find one used at a modestly reduced rate. Good luck, Rick |
Wet suit is fine used in combo with a dry top. I have been doing white water
for years year round down to 15 % and windy and always been comfy, even in my first season when I took some cold water swims. Add a neoprene balaclava, gloves ( or pogies ) and neoprene booties, and you're all set. Now if you're talking expansive open water where you could be in it for a long time, that is you do not have a roll, then dry suit for sure. Also, if you are wearing a spray skirt and gloves, hang a LARGE carabiner on the grab loop. This way when upside down, the weight of the biner will extend the grab loop and make it easy to find. "Rick" wrote in message ink.net... sparks wrote: Greetings, Some friends and I are thinking about doing some winter time kayaking. This will be the first time we have paddled in the cold water (Indiana..pretty chilly right now). What can you recommend for clothing? I really cant afford to go out and buy an expensive dry suit (the ones I found on the internet were $400 and up ). We really want to go this winter but...if not being able to afford a drysuit is going to be a safety concern then I will wait until spring : ) Anyone have any cheaper alternatives? Thanks! Sparks Sorry to disappoint you Sparks, but in the conditions you describe, a dry suit is a must. A wetsuit to meet your needs would be too thick to paddle in and insufficent once you were immersed. You may be able to find one used at a modestly reduced rate. Good luck, Rick |
On 10-Jan-2005, Rick wrote:
Sorry to disappoint you Sparks, but in the conditions you describe, a dry suit is a must. The OP didn't bother to say whether he's referring to WW or SK. For sea kayaking, a wetsuit would be fine _IF_ you are always paddling in a group, the group members all know how to do quick assisted rescues and you aren't going to swim for very long. If solo you'd be a lot better off with a dry suit. A bombproof roll is useful as well. Make sure you are prepared to deal with cold - extra gear and hot drinks etc. If someone does end up in the water longer than they are comfortable, get to shore and deal with it. Make sure you know about hypothermia and how to treat it. People swim near-naked in freezing water every year and live to tell - just do a Google search on "new year's day polar bear swim" and I'll bet you'll get lots of hits. Mike |
Rick wrote:
sparks wrote: Greetings, Some friends and I are thinking about doing some winter time kayaking. This will be the first time we have paddled in the cold water (Indiana..pretty chilly right now). What can you recommend for clothing? I really cant afford to go out and buy an expensive dry suit (the ones I found on the internet were $400 and up ). We really want to go this winter but...if not being able to afford a drysuit is going to be a safety concern then I will wait until spring : ) Anyone have any cheaper alternatives? Thanks! Sparks Sorry to disappoint you Sparks, but in the conditions you describe, a dry suit is a must. A wetsuit to meet your needs would be too thick to paddle in and insufficent once you were immersed. You may be able to find one used at a modestly reduced rate. Nonsense Rick. A wetsuit needed to paddle in conditions where the water is still flowing wouldn't be too thick. Combine it with a good (semi-)drytop and a couple of layers of polypro underneath that drytop, and you can be nice and warm in those conditions. Very few people over here buy drytops due to their their very high prices, and that's with the main paddling season being in the winter: http://wilko.webzone.ru/galler15.html http://wilko.webzone.ru/galler16.html http://wilko.webzone.ru/galler19.html I would agree if you'd say that a drytop can be a cosier alternative, but it comes at a price and a risk. I personally don't like paddling drysuits. First of all, I think that they just cost too much, especially for a beginning paddler. It's still necessary to wear a thick enough layer of clothes underneath to keep out the cold and to have some padding in the case of a close encounter with hard objects. It's also not all that easy to get into a new or newly gasketed drysuit, having witnessed all too many wrestling drysuit owners trying very hard to get into their prized garments... And then I haven't started about the strength and agility needed to close that zipper! :-) My main problem with them are the gaskets though. I don't like a latex gasket around my neck, as I really abhor a neck rash. These neck gaskets are the first to become so wide that water can freely flow in and out, because your (big) head has to go through them, stretching the darn thing, whereas it should shrink to the size of your neck after that every time. Besides, seeing how many of the drysuits have no protective neoprene cover, getting a deep scratch from a sharp rock, branches or thorns makes the entire term "dry" suit a lie. It's not cheap nor easy for beginners to replace gaskets yourself, especially neck gaskets. I replaced the wrist gaskets of two semi-dry tops, and although I'm rather handy, it still took quite some skill and time. Even worse, if you rip a gasket, the suit can fill up with water and cause you to disappear under water, as RBP'er Larry Cable witnessed when he had to "swim" with a swamped dry suit. The air trapped inside your leg pants after you rip a neck gasket and the suit floods can also cause you to float upside down, making it very hard to breathe. Still, despite those horror stories many drysuit owners swear by their virtues, and I have to agree that seeing them get out of their suit after a day of paddling almost dry does have its merits. If you get one, the tips I've picket up so far a get the latex booties, but one size bigger than your shoe size, so that you can wear socks inside them. That also makes it less important to have tight ankle gaskets, so that your feet get more blood, in turn keeping them warmer. Get a paddling dry suit which comes with an extra tunnel around the waist, under which you can put the tunnel of your spraydeck, keeping the seepage into your boat through the tunnel to a minimum. Make sure that it's a paddling drysuit, with neoprene gaskets covering the vulnerable latext gaskets, and adding to the safety by still having some layer to keep water out in the case that you rip a gasket. Always get one with a relief zipper, and if you do spend the pile of money needed to get a Goretex dry suit, have a look at the Goretex website to hear about how to treat it. -- Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe ---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.--- http://wilko.webzone.ru/ |
Sorry to disappoint you Sparks, but in the conditions you describe, a dry suit is a must. A wetsuit to meet your needs would be too thick to paddle in and insufficent once you were immersed. You may be able to find one used at a modestly reduced rate. Good luck, Rick Probably the best thing to do is wait until spring. We were going to go on a resevoir in western Indiana. It is supposed to be 25 degrees this weekend...god knows what the wind will be like. I want to play it safe... I appreciate everyones enthusiastic advice...I knew I came to the right place to ask!! See you all in warmer weather! |
Wilko, in general I agree with your comments about drysuits.
For me the biggest advantage of a drysuit is that it can have integral socks, which make a big difference in keeping feet warm, especially for open-deck boaters. You skillfully enumerated the disadvantages of cost, gasket discomfort, and safety problems. Two specific disagreements: Wilko wrote: If you get one, the tips I've picket up so far a get the latex booties, but one size bigger than your shoe size, so that you can wear socks inside them. Neoprene or fabric socks (goretex or other coated cloth) last longer than latex. With all the scouting and portaging I do, I never got more than a year out of latex socks. The goretex ones I have on now have lasted at least 5 years. Always get one with a relief zipper... I have been very unhappy with my relief zipper, which leaks badly. The newish Palm drysuit has the main zipper in an arrangment so that men can use it for "relief" after taking off the PFD. I recommend avoiding relief zipper if possible (not possible with Kokatat designs) to save money and avoid possible failure. |
On 11-Jan-2005, "sparks" wrote:
Probably the best thing to do is wait until spring. We were going to go on a resevoir in western Indiana. It is supposed to be 25 degrees this weekend...god knows what the wind will be like. I want to play it safe... I appreciate everyones enthusiastic advice...I knew I came to the right place to ask!! See you all in warmer weather! You're wimping out based on bad advice. I know lots of paddlers who go out in winter without drysuits. Experience, preparation and care matter more than clothes. Mike |
"Michael Daly" wrote in message ... On 11-Jan-2005, "sparks" wrote: Probably the best thing to do is wait until spring. We were going to go on a resevoir in western Indiana. It is supposed to be 25 degrees this weekend...god knows what the wind will be like. I want to play it safe... I appreciate everyones enthusiastic advice...I knew I came to the right place to ask!! See you all in warmer weather! You're wimping out based on bad advice. I know lots of paddlers who go out in winter without drysuits. Experience, preparation and care matter more than clothes. Mike I have to agree with Mike. The year I got my first kayak, I went out every weekend for a year and a half. When the lakes and rivers froze up, we went on the ocean. I still paddle most weekends all year round, maybe more in the winter, because the rivers here dry up in the summer. A regular pair of wetsuit pants, and neoprene booties with wool socks has always kept my lower half warm - and I've gone for quite a long swim (when my roll failed me) with crushed ice from the break-up still in the river. I wasn't cold in the water or on the side of the river trying to free my pinned boat. The top half is the hardest to regulate. With a dry top on the outside, when you're warm enough at the start, you're roasting half an hour later. If you start off a bit chilly, it's chilly if you roll or when you take a break. Neoprene hat, hood or balaklava is a must to staying warm. I've lent my gloves on cold days, but haven't really suffered as long as my head and core were warm. Mike Lunenburg, NS Canada, eh. |
Michael Daly wrote:
On 10-Jan-2005, Rick wrote: Sorry to disappoint you Sparks, but in the conditions you describe, a dry suit is a must. The OP didn't bother to say whether he's referring to WW or SK. The poster did identify his location (near the great lakes - where I assumed he'd be paddling), which is one where temps in winter can be well below 0 for extended periods of time (temps as long as -30F to -50F are not common, but they do occur). During a warm spell (he later mentioned 25F forecast, probably with significant wind, which probably qualifies at this time of year as such), a wet suit is fairly inadequate. The dry top is a good block for the wind, but the wetsuit itself is not. Most are useless in the wind, by the way, as air has no difficulty penetratring the seams in the fabric. I also agree that there are issues with dry suits (I don't own one, by the way, but have used them and find them too expensive to be justifyable), and the gaskets are uncomfortable, at best. For sea kayaking, a wetsuit would be fine _IF_ you are always paddling in a group, the group members all know how to do quick assisted rescues and you aren't going to swim for very long. If solo you'd be a lot better off with a dry suit. A bombproof roll is useful as well. Again, I disagree. Once wet, the suit will accumulate ice and its thermal abilities would be compromised. Even with a 25F temperature, without wind, you would find the water temperature to be quite uncomfortable in a very short time. Sea kayaker did experiements in water considerably warmer than this and the results were eye-opening. Make sure you are prepared to deal with cold - extra gear and hot drinks etc. If someone does end up in the water longer than they are comfortable, get to shore and deal with it. Make sure you know about hypothermia and how to treat it. I quite agree. People swim near-naked in freezing water every year and live to tell - just do a Google search on "new year's day polar bear swim" and I'll bet you'll get lots of hits. Mike, you certainly will. They spend a few seconds in the water and seem to be quite fine, afterward. Some individuals can stay in freezing water for an extended period of time (the Icelandic fisherman in McPhee's book on Iceland would be an example), but this is the exception. I would not base any advice upon my own, or that of any other individual, personal experience with cold water. After a capsize, should you lack, or fail, a roll, you will be in the water for a longer period of time than one of these swimmers. Note also that these clubs have doctors and rescue equipment on hand for emergencies. Most kayaking excursions are much less well equipped. Surviving water that is 32F-35F (the likely temps in the region) is not undoable, but if someone asks me for a recommendation on whether to paddle on such water and I have little evidence of their skill or hardiness, I will not, as some here have, recommend going out. Paddling is best when you are comfortable, safe, and within your limits. Knowing what I know of the midwest, and the fact that this individual does not seem to definitely know the conditions he could safely paddle in, left me with little other choice, IMO, than to throw the proverbial cold water on his plans. Rick PS: Many dive shops will rent dry suits for considerably less than the purchase price. I should probably have mentioned that, as well. |
Ok - my 2 cents. I do not as yet boat in cold water myself but I do plan to
do it. I believe that 25 degrees is absolutely the wrong time to start going out. When I am ready, I will follow some of the advice given here but I will start making trips in the fall as the temps start downward and will make adjustments as I find what works for ME and what does not. By the time the temps reach 25 I will KNOW if I will be able to handle the conditions with a fairly high degree of certainty. Again just my 2 cents but I think it is the way to stay safe and explore your limits. Ken "Rick" wrote in message ink.net... Michael Daly wrote: On 10-Jan-2005, Rick wrote: Sorry to disappoint you Sparks, but in the conditions you describe, a dry suit is a must. The OP didn't bother to say whether he's referring to WW or SK. The poster did identify his location (near the great lakes - where I assumed he'd be paddling), which is one where temps in winter can be well below 0 for extended periods of time (temps as long as -30F to -50F are not common, but they do occur). During a warm spell (he later mentioned 25F forecast, probably with significant wind, which probably qualifies at this time of year as such), a wet suit is fairly inadequate. The dry top is a good block for the wind, but the wetsuit itself is not. Most are useless in the wind, by the way, as air has no difficulty penetratring the seams in the fabric. I also agree that there are issues with dry suits (I don't own one, by the way, but have used them and find them too expensive to be justifyable), and the gaskets are uncomfortable, at best. For sea kayaking, a wetsuit would be fine _IF_ you are always paddling in a group, the group members all know how to do quick assisted rescues and you aren't going to swim for very long. If solo you'd be a lot better off with a dry suit. A bombproof roll is useful as well. Again, I disagree. Once wet, the suit will accumulate ice and its thermal abilities would be compromised. Even with a 25F temperature, without wind, you would find the water temperature to be quite uncomfortable in a very short time. Sea kayaker did experiements in water considerably warmer than this and the results were eye-opening. Make sure you are prepared to deal with cold - extra gear and hot drinks etc. If someone does end up in the water longer than they are comfortable, get to shore and deal with it. Make sure you know about hypothermia and how to treat it. I quite agree. People swim near-naked in freezing water every year and live to tell - just do a Google search on "new year's day polar bear swim" and I'll bet you'll get lots of hits. Mike, you certainly will. They spend a few seconds in the water and seem to be quite fine, afterward. Some individuals can stay in freezing water for an extended period of time (the Icelandic fisherman in McPhee's book on Iceland would be an example), but this is the exception. I would not base any advice upon my own, or that of any other individual, personal experience with cold water. After a capsize, should you lack, or fail, a roll, you will be in the water for a longer period of time than one of these swimmers. Note also that these clubs have doctors and rescue equipment on hand for emergencies. Most kayaking excursions are much less well equipped. Surviving water that is 32F-35F (the likely temps in the region) is not undoable, but if someone asks me for a recommendation on whether to paddle on such water and I have little evidence of their skill or hardiness, I will not, as some here have, recommend going out. Paddling is best when you are comfortable, safe, and within your limits. Knowing what I know of the midwest, and the fact that this individual does not seem to definitely know the conditions he could safely paddle in, left me with little other choice, IMO, than to throw the proverbial cold water on his plans. Rick PS: Many dive shops will rent dry suits for considerably less than the purchase price. I should probably have mentioned that, as well. |
On 11-Jan-2005, Rick wrote:
The poster did identify his location (near the great lakes - where I assumed he'd be paddling), which is one where temps in winter can be well below 0 for extended periods of time I live north of him and paddle in cold temps. I own a dry suit and have also used a wet suit in winter. The dry top is a good block for the wind, but the wetsuit itself is not. Most are useless in the wind, by the way, as air has no difficulty penetratring the seams in the fabric. That depends on how strong the wind is or how cheap your wet suit is. Mine at least has sealed seams. We were out on New Year's Day and there was no wind. I was the only one in a drysuit and everyone else was quite comfortable. Since the standard wet suit is a farmer john, a jacket of some kind is mandatory in wind. Drytop or just a windbreaker, you can be comfortable. Again, I disagree. Once wet, the suit will accumulate ice and its thermal abilities would be compromised. Even with a 25F temperature, without wind, you would find the water temperature to be quite uncomfortable in a very short time. Sea kayaker did experiements in water considerably warmer than this and the results were eye-opening. If you are in the kayak and paddling, you're producing heat. If ice forms, it will crack and fall off. Besides, a wet suit doesn't hold that much water on its surface. The neoprene itself does not absorb water and will not have its insulation compromised. Been there, done that. I don't know about the Sea Kayaker tests (cite please) but I know I've gone for a swim in winter and if you're up to it, it isn't that bad. The big problems are related to controlling breathing - cold water gasp reflex (sudden inhalation when you hit cold water) can get you, especially if you are underwater when it happens. When floating, you have a tendency to breathe in panic mode - control that and you most of the way to controlling the whole situation. Note also that these clubs have doctors and rescue equipment on hand for emergencies. Liability issues and the fact that out-of-shape bozos come out of the woodwork to join in the fun. If you've got a heart condition, no, you shouldn't be risking cold water immersion. If you're fit, that's another story. After a capsize, should you lack, or fail, a roll, you will be in the water for a longer period of time than one of these swimmers. I've been in water these temps for longer than a few seconds. Even in a wet suit, it can take several seconds just for the water to penetrate to your skin if you've got layers on. Surviving water that is 32F-35F (the likely temps in the region) is not undoable, but if someone asks me for a recommendation on whether to paddle on such water and I have little evidence of their skill or hardiness, I will not, as some here have, recommend going out. You only said that they have to have a drysuit. A drysuit by itself is not a solution. I know of folks who have gone out in a drysuit with no insulation underneath and another that wore a drysuit and left the zippers open (he drowned - on Superior - I believe it was discussed here a few years ago). I give Sparky the benefit of the doubt and assume he's not an idiot, since he asked for advice. Telling him to be prepared is better than telling him to stay home. Mike |
Wilko wrote:
Have you ever actually worn a dry suit, Wilko? From your comments, it certainly doesn't seem so. I use one 7-8 months of the year and my experience varies dramatically from yours. I personally don't like paddling drysuits. First of all, I think that they just cost too much, especially for a beginning paddler. It's still necessary to wear a thick enough layer of clothes underneath to keep out the cold and to have some padding in the case of a close encounter with hard objects. It's called "insulation" and you need it regardless. I don't see your point. It's also not all that easy to get into a new or newly gasketed drysuit, having witnessed all too many wrestling drysuit owners trying very hard to get into their prized garments... If you trim the seals to fit properly and apply a bit of talc to the inside, the slip on and off easily. And then I haven't started about the strength and agility needed to close that zipper! :-) Properly lubed zippers aren't a problem. My main problem with them are the gaskets though. I don't like a latex gasket around my neck, as I really abhor a neck rash. While some people do have problems with latex reactions, this is not a given. In fact, it's not very common. For example, of the 50 or so friends I can think of who own dry suits, only one has discovered that he has a latex alergy. These neck gaskets are the first to become so wide that water can freely flow in and out, because your (big) head has to go through them, stretching the darn thing, whereas it should shrink to the size of your neck after that every time. This is just plain wrong! Latex has a very good memory, which is why stretching seals to make them fit better is largely a waste of time. Latex seals can readily stretch over the largest head, then snap back to be very tight, if they're not trimmed to fit properly. Besides, seeing how many of the drysuits have no protective neoprene cover, getting a deep scratch from a sharp rock, branches or thorns makes the entire term "dry" suit a lie. This is very misleading. While it's true that dry suits are not ideally suited to negotiating thorny shores or frequent abrasion against rocks, they're far more durable that you suggest. For sea kayaking, they're extremely durable. It's not cheap nor easy for beginners to replace gaskets yourself, especially neck gaskets. I replaced the wrist gaskets of two semi-dry tops, and although I'm rather handy, it still took quite some skill and time. It takes about an hour to do a pair of wrists or ankles (or latex socks) and perhaps an hour and a half to do a neck seal. It's not difficult, either. Wrist and ankle seals are ~$25/pair and a neck seal is ~$30-$35. Properly treated, seals will last at least four seasons of frequent use. Even worse, if you rip a gasket, the suit can fill up with water and cause you to disappear under water, as RBP'er Larry Cable witnessed when he had to "swim" with a swamped dry suit. The air trapped inside your leg pants after you rip a neck gasket and the suit floods can also cause you to float upside down, making it very hard to breathe. Incidents like that are exceedingly rare. Seals are not fragile unless they're old and are in need of replacement. They don't just spontaneously tear for no reason. Every seal failure I've seen has occurred either when the paddler was putting the suit on or taking it off. I have never seen a seal fail on the water. Barring some bizarre circumstances, it simply doesn't happen. Still, despite those horror stories many drysuit owners swear by their virtues, and I have to agree that seeing them get out of their suit after a day of paddling almost dry does have its merits. All it takes is one experience of stripping off a damp wetsuit in a 30 degree F breeze to convince you that there has to be a better way. Dry suits are that better way. Not only are they more comfortable to wear, but at the end of the day, you slip out of it, throw on a jacket and you're good to go. If you get one, the tips I've picket up so far a get the latex booties, but one size bigger than your shoe size, so that you can wear socks inside them. That also makes it less important to have tight ankle gaskets, so that your feet get more blood, in turn keeping them warmer. Get a paddling dry suit which comes with an extra tunnel around the waist, under which you can put the tunnel of your spraydeck, keeping the seepage into your boat through the tunnel to a minimum. Make sure that it's a paddling drysuit, with neoprene gaskets covering the vulnerable latext gaskets, and adding to the safety by still having some layer to keep water out in the case that you rip a gasket. Always get one with a relief zipper, and if you do spend the pile of money needed to get a Goretex dry suit, have a look at the Goretex website to hear about how to treat it. Good advice. Gore-Text doesn't require any special treatment beyond rinsing it off after use in salt water and letting it dry. It's advisable to re-apply a durable water repellent (DWR) periodically, but I know very few people who actually do that, myself included. Gore-Tex is considerably more durable than coated fabrics and the contrary to what you might expect, the breathability make a HUGE difference. |
Michael Daly wrote:
On 11-Jan-2005, "sparks" wrote: Probably the best thing to do is wait until spring. We were going to go on a resevoir in western Indiana. It is supposed to be 25 degrees this weekend...god knows what the wind will be like. I want to play it safe... I appreciate everyones enthusiastic advice...I knew I came to the right place to ask!! See you all in warmer weather! You're wimping out based on bad advice. I know lots of paddlers who go out in winter without drysuits. Experience, preparation and care matter more than clothes. I have to disagree with you Mike. Unexpected bad things happen, even to good paddlers. We had an incident this past weekend that drove that point home quite vividly. Fortunately, no one was hurt. Sparks, if you can't afford proper immersion clothing for the conditions, stay off the water. Cold water is not the place for bravado and bluster. It's a very unforgiving environment that must be treated with respect. Sure, people get away with pushing their luck, just as with many other activities. However, you could just as easily be the one that doesn't get away with it. IMO, it's not worth it. Save your money and buy a dry suit on sale in the spring. You'll still need it until the water warms up, anyway. |
Brian Nystrom wrote:
Even worse, if you rip a gasket, the suit can fill up with water and cause you to disappear under water, as RBP'er Larry Cable witnessed when he had to "swim" with a swamped dry suit. The air trapped inside your leg pants after you rip a neck gasket and the suit floods can also cause you to float upside down, making it very hard to breathe. Incidents like that are exceedingly rare. Seals are not fragile unless they're old and are in need of replacement. They don't just spontaneously tear for no reason. Except when the reason is old age! In the March 23rd 1998 high water on the Illinois river in Oregon, two people died from taking a "long swim". I know for a fact that one of them tore his drysuit neck gasket during the trip. OTOH it is amazing that some people wearing drysuits survived swims over a mile long. That might not have happened in wetsuits. Brian or anyone, when ya take good care of gaskets by washing salt and perspiration off them, and by coating them with 303 Protectant or equivalent, how do ya know when they are in need of replacement? |
Bill Tuthill wrote:
Brian Nystrom wrote: Even worse, if you rip a gasket, the suit can fill up with water and cause you to disappear under water, as RBP'er Larry Cable witnessed when he had to "swim" with a swamped dry suit. The air trapped inside your leg pants after you rip a neck gasket and the suit floods can also cause you to float upside down, making it very hard to breathe. Incidents like that are exceedingly rare. Seals are not fragile unless they're old and are in need of replacement. They don't just spontaneously tear for no reason. Except when the reason is old age! In the March 23rd 1998 high water on the Illinois river in Oregon, two people died from taking a "long swim". I know for a fact that one of them tore his drysuit neck gasket during the trip. The question is "when did he tear it?". Was it something that happened in the middle of the trip and they continued anyway? OTOH it is amazing that some people wearing drysuits survived swims over a mile long. That might not have happened in wetsuits. Brian or anyone, when ya take good care of gaskets by washing salt and perspiration off them, and by coating them with 303 Protectant or equivalent, how do ya know when they are in need of replacement? Typically, one of two things will happen. Either the seals start to show cracks or they start to get sticky/gooey on the edges. The cracking is caused by UV and/or ozone exposure and the stickiness is typically caused by too much contact with skin oil and/or sunscreens containing oils. Another sign of breakdown is that they will stretch out and become loose after having fit properly for years. When the time comes to replace them, there are excellent instructions on Kokatat's site. OS Systems sells very high quality replacement seals in many sizes, so it's easier to get a close fit with their products than most others. That minimizes the amount of trimming you need to do. |
Brian Nystrom wrote:
Wilko wrote: Have you ever actually worn a dry suit, Wilko? From your comments, it certainly doesn't seem so. I use one 7-8 months of the year and my experience varies dramatically from yours. I'll mention that I wore one as a naval aviator when flying over cold waters, and so have mucho hours in the thing. I wore a flight suit over it to protect against abrasion, but it still got abused climbing into and out of planes and clambering around on the CV flight deck. You get used to it pretty quick. Ours were goretex with the socks, zipper horizontal at chest level, and a relief zipper (yea...good luck with that while wearing a harness). I use it kayaking now. Plenty comfortable. |
Brian Nystrom wrote: Wilko wrote: Have you ever actually worn a dry suit, Wilko? From your comments, it certainly doesn't seem so. I use one 7-8 months of the year and my experience varies dramatically from yours. Have you ever actually paddled whitewater, Brian? From your comments it certainly doesn't seem so. I use a wetsuit with a seperate drytop all year around, both when it's freezing in the winter and when it's in the middle of the summer. Your comments may have some merit when talking about paddling at sea, but I was talking about paddling whitewater. I personally don't like paddling drysuits. First of all, I think that they just cost too much, especially for a beginning paddler. It's still necessary to wear a thick enough layer of clothes underneath to keep out the cold and to have some padding in the case of a close encounter with hard objects. It's called "insulation" and you need it regardless. I don't see your point. Then maybe you should look again: Neoprene insulates rather well, unlike the fabric of a dry suit *and* neoprene absorbs some of the impact when you happen to bump into some rocks, unlike the fabric of a dry suit. You *can* add layers between the wetsuit and the drytop, but the wetsuit insulates and protects already without that. It's also not all that easy to get into a new or newly gasketed drysuit, having witnessed all too many wrestling drysuit owners trying very hard to get into their prized garments... If you trim the seals to fit properly and apply a bit of talc to the inside, the slip on and off easily. Yeah right! I've owned a number of drytops, and although they do tend to become easier to get into over time, some do take quite a bit of effort to get in and out of. Since I have a couple of friends who've invested in drysuits, I've had the pleasure of seeing them wrestle even more, and I tend to help them get in and out of their garments like I help some of my drytop wearing friends to get in and out of those. And then I haven't started about the strength and agility needed to close that zipper! :-) Properly lubed zippers aren't a problem. Of course, you don't have sand or other particles that seem to be magnetically attracted to those zippers. Even in wetsuits I've seen zippers get permanently stuck due to that kind of stuff, not to mention the times that drysuit wearers have asked me to help them with their zipper, in part because of the poor location of those zippers (on the back). My main problem with them are the gaskets though. I don't like a latex gasket around my neck, as I really abhor a neck rash. While some people do have problems with latex reactions, this is not a given. In fact, it's not very common. For example, of the 50 or so friends I can think of who own dry suits, only one has discovered that he has a latex alergy. I am not talking about latex allergy, I'm talking about the chafing and rubbing of the gasket when you turn your head. Having two layers of neoprene (as my current semi-drytop has) seems to solve that problem, by having one (long) layer move with my neck's movement, and the other layer staying in place on the outside. These neck gaskets are the first to become so wide that water can freely flow in and out, because your (big) head has to go through them, stretching the darn thing, whereas it should shrink to the size of your neck after that every time. This is just plain wrong! Sure Brian... Latex has a very good memory, which is why stretching seals to make them fit better is largely a waste of time. Latex seals can readily stretch over the largest head, then snap back to be very tight, if they're not trimmed to fit properly. I have two drytops right now that call you a liar, as well as several more that I have owned in the past. The wrist gaskets on each of those have stretched enough to become less tight over time. The neck gasket on the dry top of several of my friends (and my girlfriend's old drytop) also have stretched enough as to not close the neck off completely any more. Besides, seeing how many of the drysuits have no protective neoprene cover, getting a deep scratch from a sharp rock, branches or thorns makes the entire term "dry" suit a lie. This is very misleading. While it's true that dry suits are not ideally suited to negotiating thorny shores or frequent abrasion against rocks, they're far more durable that you suggest. Nonsense again. I'm talking about the vulnerability of latex gaskets when they are without a neoprene cover. I don't say anything about the vulnerability of the material that makes up the rest of the suit (or dry top for that matter). For sea kayaking, they're extremely durable. Who is talking about sea kayaking? How many bramble bushes or other shrubbery with thorns grow out on sea, Brian? It takes about an hour to do a pair of wrists or ankles (or latex socks) and perhaps an hour and a half to do a neck seal. It's not difficult, either. Wrist and ankle seals are ~$25/pair and a neck seal is ~$30-$35. Properly treated, seals will last at least four seasons of frequent use. Four seasons without stretching at all, eh? BTW, I don't know what you earn per hour, but I do earn a bit more than the material cost of those gaskets per hour, which means that sitting there for 2,5 hours is quite a bit of time and money. Also, it also takes considerably more time than just your run of the mill gasket replacement if the gasket has torn up along the stitched line where the latex meets the breathable material. Even worse, if you rip a gasket, the suit can fill up with water and cause you to disappear under water, as RBP'er Larry Cable witnessed when he had to "swim" with a swamped dry suit. The air trapped inside your leg pants after you rip a neck gasket and the suit floods can also cause you to float upside down, making it very hard to breathe. Incidents like that are exceedingly rare. Seals are not fragile unless they're old and are in need of replacement. They don't just spontaneously tear for no reason. Every seal failure I've seen has occurred either when the paddler was putting the suit on or taking it off. I have never seen a seal fail on the water. Barring some bizarre circumstances, it simply doesn't happen. I've torn three wrist gaskets on the river. On after scratching it with a thorn, one after hitting something under water and one along the stitched line, where the stitch has started to create a little tear along several of the holes. I noticed none of them untill the water started to seep in. I've only seen two torn neck gaskets, but as larry's story proves, that can have dire consequences on the river. Better have an extra layer of neoprene over that gasket for exactly that reason. Still, despite those horror stories many drysuit owners swear by their virtues, and I have to agree that seeing them get out of their suit after a day of paddling almost dry does have its merits. All it takes is one experience of stripping off a damp wetsuit in a 30 degree F breeze to convince you that there has to be a better way. Dry suits are that better way. Not only are they more comfortable to wear, but at the end of the day, you slip out of it, throw on a jacket and you're good to go. I'm not convinced that spending that much money for a dry suit is indeed such a good thing, and I've definately done my part of stripping off my wetsuit at below freezing temperatures. Gore-Text doesn't require any special treatment beyond rinsing it off after use in salt water and letting it dry. It's advisable to re-apply a durable water repellent (DWR) periodically, but I know very few people who actually do that, myself included. Gore-Tex is considerably more durable than coated fabrics and the contrary to what you might expect, the breathability make a HUGE difference. Yep, I do have two breathable (semi-) drytops, which do make a difference, although with all the flipping that a rodeokayaker does, their benefit is not as big as with someone who doesnt spend as much time upside-down or dripping wet. :-) -- Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe ---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.--- http://wilko.webzone.ru/ |
Wilko wrote:
Brian Nystrom wrote: Wilko wrote: Have you ever actually worn a dry suit, Wilko? From your comments, it certainly doesn't seem so. I use one 7-8 months of the year and my experience varies dramatically from yours. Have you ever actually paddled whitewater, Brian? From your comments it certainly doesn't seem so. I use a wetsuit with a seperate drytop all year around, both when it's freezing in the winter and when it's in the middle of the summer. No, I don't paddle whitewater and never claimed to. The person who posted the question didn't say anything about whitewater, either. Your comments may have some merit when talking about paddling at sea, but I was talking about paddling whitewater. Fine, but you still haven't answered the question. I personally don't like paddling drysuits. First of all, I think that they just cost too much, especially for a beginning paddler. It's still necessary to wear a thick enough layer of clothes underneath to keep out the cold and to have some padding in the case of a close encounter with hard objects. It's called "insulation" and you need it regardless. I don't see your point. Then maybe you should look again: Neoprene insulates rather well, unlike the fabric of a dry suit Who said otherwise? That's a bogus argument, as any fool knows you need insulating layers in a dry suit. *and* neoprene absorbs some of the impact when you happen to bump into some rocks, unlike the fabric of a dry suit. Once more, who said otherwise? You *can* add layers between the wetsuit and the drytop, but the wetsuit insulates and protects already without that. And you can add as many layers under a dry suit as necessary, so it doesn't make any difference if the fabric insulates or not. Unlike a wetsuit, a Gore-Tex (or similar) dry suit breathes, so you don't end up soaking wet from sweat. It's also not all that easy to get into a new or newly gasketed drysuit, having witnessed all too many wrestling drysuit owners trying very hard to get into their prized garments... If you trim the seals to fit properly and apply a bit of talc to the inside, the slip on and off easily. Yeah right! Try it, it works! Ask around and you'll hear the same thing from others. Nothing to it. I've owned a number of drytops, and although they do tend to become easier to get into over time, some do take quite a bit of effort to get in and out of. Since I have a couple of friends who've invested in drysuits, I've had the pleasure of seeing them wrestle even more, and I tend to help them get in and out of their garments like I help some of my drytop wearing friends to get in and out of those. I'll bet you that I can get into and out of my dry suit faster than you can get into and out of your wetsuit. As I said, if you trim the seals to fit right and powder them, you slip right in. If you prefer to struggle, that's fine with me. Dry tops tend to be harder to get into and out of, since they have to fit tight around the waist and the double tunnel adds a layer of complication. I find them much more difficult than a full dry suit, which is like slipping into coveralls. And yes, I own two dry tops currently and have owned others in the past. The latest is a Bomber gear with a Velcro waist closure that eliminates the struggle of getting the damn thing past your shoulders. And then I haven't started about the strength and agility needed to close that zipper! :-) Properly lubed zippers aren't a problem. Of course, you don't have sand or other particles that seem to be magnetically attracted to those zippers. Even in wetsuits I've seen zippers get permanently stuck due to that kind of stuff, I have never had a single problem with sand jamming a drysuit zipper, not one. Having a flap over the zipper helps I'm sure, but I've never even taken any special steps to keep the zippers clean. However, I don't roll around in the sand, either. not to mention the times that drysuit wearers have asked me to help them with their zipper, in part because of the poor location of those zippers (on the back). The vast majority of dry suits sold over here have a front zipper that goes from the right shoulder to the left hip. It's easy to operate without assistance. The large opening also makes getting in and out really easy. My main problem with them are the gaskets though. I don't like a latex gasket around my neck, as I really abhor a neck rash. While some people do have problems with latex reactions, this is not a given. In fact, it's not very common. For example, of the 50 or so friends I can think of who own dry suits, only one has discovered that he has a latex alergy. I am not talking about latex allergy, I'm talking about the chafing and rubbing of the gasket when you turn your head. Having two layers of neoprene (as my current semi-drytop has) seems to solve that problem, by having one (long) layer move with my neck's movement, and the other layer staying in place on the outside. I've never had a chafing problem with the seals on a dry suit, or a dry top, for that matter. If you don't like dry suit gaskets around your neck, how do you deal with drytop gaskets, which are the same thing? These neck gaskets are the first to become so wide that water can freely flow in and out, because your (big) head has to go through them, stretching the darn thing, whereas it should shrink to the size of your neck after that every time. This is just plain wrong! Sure Brian... I call 'em as I see 'em. Latex does not stretch appreciably in normal use. Ask the manufacturers of the seals, if you don't believe me. Latex has a very good memory, which is why stretching seals to make them fit better is largely a waste of time. Latex seals can readily stretch over the largest head, then snap back to be very tight, if they're not trimmed to fit properly. I have two drytops right now that call you a liar, as well as several more that I have owned in the past. The wrist gaskets on each of those have stretched enough to become less tight over time. The neck gasket on the dry top of several of my friends (and my girlfriend's old drytop) also have stretched enough as to not close the neck off completely any more. Then it's time to replace your seals. The stretching has nothing to do with putting them on and taking them off, it has to do with the seals degrading due to UV exposure, skin oil, sunscreen and so on. I don't doubt that your seals are loosening up, but it's not for the reason you think it is. Besides, seeing how many of the drysuits have no protective neoprene cover, getting a deep scratch from a sharp rock, branches or thorns makes the entire term "dry" suit a lie. This is very misleading. While it's true that dry suits are not ideally suited to negotiating thorny shores or frequent abrasion against rocks, they're far more durable that you suggest. Nonsense again. I'm talking about the vulnerability of latex gaskets when they are without a neoprene cover. I don't say anything about the vulnerability of the material that makes up the rest of the suit (or dry top for that matter). Fine. Then buy garments with covers over the seals. It's not like they aren't widely available. Problem solved. For sea kayaking, they're extremely durable. Who is talking about sea kayaking? How many bramble bushes or other shrubbery with thorns grow out on sea, Brian? Did the original question reference bramble bushes? You make these blanket statements about latex seal durability as if they're absolute truth, but conveniently forget to mention that they're based on your experience while running around in bramble bushes and rubbing against rocks, as if it doesn't make any difference. It make a HUGE difference. If you abuse your dry suit or top, of course you're going to have durability problems. I imagine your wetsuits get pretty scarred up, too. Yes, I know that it doesn't matter much if a wet suit gets shredded. It takes about an hour to do a pair of wrists or ankles (or latex socks) and perhaps an hour and a half to do a neck seal. It's not difficult, either. Wrist and ankle seals are ~$25/pair and a neck seal is ~$30-$35. Properly treated, seals will last at least four seasons of frequent use. Four seasons without stretching at all, eh? Yup. At the end of the forth season on my current suit, the seals finally started showing signs of degredation and needed to be replaced. That's with 7-8 months of use per year. BTW, I don't know what you earn per hour, but I do earn a bit more than the material cost of those gaskets per hour, which means that sitting there for 2,5 hours is quite a bit of time and money. Is this a joke or something? Who takes time off from work to fix their dry suit seals? Be serious. Also, it also takes considerably more time than just your run of the mill gasket replacement if the gasket has torn up along the stitched line where the latex meets the breathable material. That's what happens when you abuse them, let them go too long and wait for a catastrophic failure before replacing them. When they start to loosen up, it means that they're starting to fail. If that's happening prematurely to your seals, you need to examine your care and maintenance practices. Even worse, if you rip a gasket, the suit can fill up with water and cause you to disappear under water, as RBP'er Larry Cable witnessed when he had to "swim" with a swamped dry suit. The air trapped inside your leg pants after you rip a neck gasket and the suit floods can also cause you to float upside down, making it very hard to breathe. Incidents like that are exceedingly rare. Seals are not fragile unless they're old and are in need of replacement. They don't just spontaneously tear for no reason. Every seal failure I've seen has occurred either when the paddler was putting the suit on or taking it off. I have never seen a seal fail on the water. Barring some bizarre circumstances, it simply doesn't happen. I've torn three wrist gaskets on the river. On after scratching it with a thorn, one after hitting something under water and one along the stitched line, where the stitch has started to create a little tear along several of the holes. I noticed none of them untill the water started to seep in. I've only seen two torn neck gaskets, but as larry's story proves, that can have dire consequences on the river. Better have an extra layer of neoprene over that gasket for exactly that reason. I agree that keeping them covered is a very good idea. Again, who said otherwise? Still, despite those horror stories many drysuit owners swear by their virtues, and I have to agree that seeing them get out of their suit after a day of paddling almost dry does have its merits. All it takes is one experience of stripping off a damp wetsuit in a 30 degree F breeze to convince you that there has to be a better way. Dry suits are that better way. Not only are they more comfortable to wear, but at the end of the day, you slip out of it, throw on a jacket and you're good to go. I'm not convinced that spending that much money for a dry suit is indeed such a good thing, and I've definately done my part of stripping off my wetsuit at below freezing temperatures. Then don't buy one. But don't try to tell me or anyone else that it's not a hell of a lot more comfortable than a wetsuit, both in use and when donning and doffing the suit. Then again, if you haven't worn one, you wouldn't know. It's funny, whenever I get into a wetsuit vs. dry suit debate, it ultimately comes down to a matter of money. Every one of the anti-drysuit types I've encountered has been looking for a way to justify not spending the extra money. I agree with you that if you're going to beat the hell out of your immersion gear, neoprene is more durable, or at least it will maintain its meager insulation value when it gets shredded. That would make it a better investment, since it's less costly to replace neoprene than Gore-Tex. On the other hand, if you take reasonable care of your immersion gear and particularly if you're a sea kayaker, there's no comparison. Dry suits win hands-down. The provide better comfort in use, better freedom of movement, more versatility in adapting to weather conditions and greater comfort at the end of the day when you take it off, among other things. Gore-Text doesn't require any special treatment beyond rinsing it off after use in salt water and letting it dry. It's advisable to re-apply a durable water repellent (DWR) periodically, but I know very few people who actually do that, myself included. Gore-Tex is considerably more durable than coated fabrics and the contrary to what you might expect, the breathability make a HUGE difference. Yep, I do have two breathable (semi-) drytops, which do make a difference, although with all the flipping that a rodeokayaker does, their benefit is not as big as with someone who doesnt spend as much time upside-down or dripping wet. :-) True. |
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Brian Nystrom wrote:
Michael Daly wrote: On 11-Jan-2005, "sparks" wrote: .. Sparks, if you can't afford proper immersion clothing for the conditions, stay off the water. Cold water is not the place for bravado and bluster. It's a very unforgiving environment that must be treated with respect. Sure, people get away with pushing their luck, just as with many other activities. However, you could just as easily be the one that doesn't get away with it. IMO, it's not worth it. Save your money and buy a dry suit on sale in the spring. You'll still need it until the water warms up, anyway. Sparks, I have been following this discussion, and reread the responses. Basically I think what it comes down to is that each has their own threshold tolerance for wet, windy, cold, latex, neoprene, zippers, etc. What you might think about doing is this - Don your prospective gear, and go run up and down the shore, and do some good aerobic excercises, work up a sweat. Then get in the water and go out about 10 ft. and get good and wet. Remember kayaking is a wet water sport. Don't fuss with a boat, or any other gear at this time. You will know in about 5 minutes whether the immersion gear you have is adequate or not. Try swiming, and be sure and get your head under. Check your sudden gasp response. Do this about 3 times, and then run back and set in the car/PU, with heater running, and a nice warm cup of coffee. Like Brian says, you may not take any more convincing to wait for a nice spring day! On the other hand, if you are having a good time, and remember your doing this for the fun of it. And your wetsuit is comfortably cold, and like MikeD and Wilko, you can't wait to get in your boat, then go the next step. Take your boat down to the water this time and do a wet entry after again getting all wet and standing in the water for 5 minutes. No seal launches, no buffs. Just a complete wet entry. If it doesn't happen, get out of the water and back in the warm vehicle, more warm coffee. If it happens, go for a short paddle, and return to start, wet exit, and start over. Remember you are probably doing this in a relatively protected area when well rested. So many incidents occur after jumping in a boat, paddling way out from shore, or down a river run, and all of a sudden your tired and the waves and the wind get to kicking up, and the warm car/PU is a long ways away. And all you can think of is the warm Coffee. Which reminds me, about all that coffee! That is why the relief zipper is so important and that it work smoothly!! :=) TnT |
Brian and Wilko, you both represent alot of diverse paddling
experience. I found this article which was originally released as a white page news brief by Bare, significant for the kayaking community. http://tinyurl.com/6wozp Bare position is that the Drysuit does not belong in a kayak. Even though it gives more cold water protection, it also requires more maintenance and training, which the recreational kayaker is probably not prepared to provide. Granted, there are high performance expert kayakers who can benefit from the higher performance, but the high performance is trumped by the higher risk inherant in drysuits. Especially consider that many rec paddlers would use the drysuit in conditions that don't require the greater cold water protection, just to stay dry and comfortable, and the risk is even more unjustifiable. Wilko I am with you on this one! Bare is basically saying that come a liability suit, They have announced to the world, that they would not be liable for a kayaker being injured or worse, while wearing a drysuit, since they do not approve use of their drysuit while kayaking. Drysuits were designed for diving where the diver has a breathing apparatus, and goes through intense certification in order to dive, and the equipment is constantly scrutinized for mtce requirements. The crossover application is not approved by Bare. I realize there are now dedicated kayaking drysuits, but that does not change the basic technology. The elimination of vent valves, does not make them inherantly safer. And I would wonder what the manufactures liability would be if challenged in court after an accident. I am a newbie to all this, and at one point considered getting a drysuit. The mystic of going out in cold water, and rolling the kayak like an Eskimo is powerful motivator for getting a drysuit. However, upon further consideration, just because I can afford the technology, does not mean I have any business buying a drysuit and putting myself in a life treating situation that requires it. There is alot more training and experience that I should gain before that day. The use of a wetsuit is self regulating in that it is a passive device that works to a certain temperature no matter the expertise of the paddler, or the general condition of the suit. If it is to cold for the wetsuit, the paddler should stay out of the water. It seems to me for someone like me, a newbie, and I don't know Sparks experience, that you experts should answer his question, not with a discussion of the merits of the two systems. But by recognizing the limits and aknowledging the risks involved in extreme cold water paddling, and kill the Mystic. Just my two cents worth. TnT |
On 14 Jan 2005 18:04:32 -0800, "Tinkerntom" wrote:
Brian and Wilko, you both represent alot of diverse paddling experience. I found this article which was originally released as a white page news brief by Bare, significant for the kayaking community. http://tinyurl.com/6wozp ... Am I alone in thinking that the drysuits worn for diving are just a tad different than those worn paddling? Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA Guns don't kill people, religions do |
Tinkerntom wrote:
Brian and Wilko, you both represent alot of diverse paddling experience. I found this article which was originally released as a white page news brief by Bare, significant for the kayaking community. http://tinyurl.com/6wozp Bare position is that the Drysuit does not belong in a kayak. Even though it gives more cold water protection, it also requires more maintenance and training, which the recreational kayaker is probably not prepared to provide. Granted, there are high performance expert kayakers who can benefit from the higher performance, but the high performance is trumped by the higher risk inherant in drysuits. Tink, The drysuit has been used for a lot of years by kayakers. If you go back to Dowd's first edition of his book, he actually recommends them for exactly the conditions we've been discussing. The diving drysuit, however, is a bit different from the immersion suit a kayaker would use, in both materials and requirements. Diving, remember, involves connecting the suit to your air supply and adjusting bouyancy by adding or leaking air from the suit. These valves, as you point out, would not exist on the equipment you'd use as a kayker and training in their use is pointless. What does remain the same, however, is the basics of how the suit works. The insulation is provided by the clothes you wear. The integrity of the suit and its seals are critical and less likely to be compromised by a sea kayaker than a river kayaker. Use of a dry suit by a river runner would, most likely, create additional risks (since its bulky nature would lead to severe disadvantages in running water and once torn, it would be a huge danger). For this reason, I can see the manufacturer suggesting that they not be used to run rivers. These risks are negligible for a sea kayaker. Especially consider that many rec paddlers would use the drysuit in conditions that don't require the greater cold water protection, just to stay dry and comfortable, and the risk is even more unjustifiable. Wilko I am with you on this one! As far as cost is concerned, I agree. Were I to go paddling on one of the great lakes in winter, however, I would definitely wear same. ....stuff deleted It seems to me for someone like me, a newbie, and I don't know Sparks experience, that you experts should answer his question, not with a discussion of the merits of the two systems. But by recognizing the limits and aknowledging the risks involved in extreme cold water paddling, and kill the Mystic. Just my two cents worth. TnT Valid point. I am concerned, first and foremost, with giving advice that falls on the safer side of the situation. Some disagree with me on that, which is fine. This is probably more a difference between the nature of sea kayakers and their WW bretheren. Having done some of both, I realize that sea kayakers have different expectations of their equipment. Sea kayerks expect to be in the water in an emergency situation for an extended period of time (weather that defeats your skills will last for many hours, but the conditions of a river tend to change much more quickly. In a drysuit, I could float in the 45F-55F water here for 24 hours. That degree of protecation from cold can be critical. In a wet suit (3mm farmer john - a denser suit is too restrictive for long term paddling), 2 hours is about the limit for thermal protection for most in those conditions. This may be woefully inadequate for some. I've used my wetsuit(s) for many years now. Perhaps some folks have suits that perform better than either of mine. Great from them. My suits, however, offer virtually no protection from wind. When wet, they are great. When dry in cold wind, they are virtually useless. I base my recommendations on these criteria. The criteria on which we base our decisions do, at times, need to be explained. I made no effort to do this in my previous post(s). For this, I apologize. I still stand by my recommendation that a dry suit is required for the conditions described. I am, by no means, critical of those who recommended otherwise. As I point out, from their perspective, I probably come off as a bit of a wimp. So it goes. Rick |
On 14-Jan-2005, "Tinkerntom" wrote:
Don your prospective gear, and go run up and down the shore, and do some good aerobic excercises, work up a sweat. Then get in the water and go out about 10 ft. and get good and wet. Remember kayaking is a wet water sport. Don't fuss with a boat, or any other gear at this time. You will know in about 5 minutes whether the immersion gear you have is adequate or not. Try swiming, and be sure and get your head under. Check your sudden gasp response. Do this about 3 times, If this little test in any way represents the conditions that a sea kayaker could reasonably expect while paddling, the mistake they made was paddling in such conditions. If you choose to paddle during the winter in conditions where you _will_ get seriously wet and/or are at significant risk of capsize and a swim, then you clearly should not be allowed out of the house alone. Most of us check the weather before going out. If the conditions are acceptable, then we go. Under these conditions, I have _never_, ever capsized in all my years of paddling. Not once. So, the cold weather gear is to protect against an unlikely condition. Furthermore, if I go alone, I will only wear a drysuit, since only a drysuit gives the degree of protection that suits solo paddling. A wetsuit will not provide enough protection unless it is so bulky that it can't be paddled in. If I paddle with the usual gang, I might wear a farmer john and drytop, since I know they can provide an assisted rescue quickly assuming my roll fails. The claims that drysuits are bulky are nonsense. They are no more difficult to move in than any other winter clothing. Gore-tex over fleece - what's the big deal? In your other post, you point out that there is a risk that the fabric might tear. Not likely. I wear Gore-tex clothing almost year round when hiking, skiing and other sports. I put that stuff through a lot of abuse and can't remember ever tearing Gore-Tex. The seals are the weak point, but inspecting them is a good preventative measure. If your suit has Gore-tex or neoprene protection over the seals, as some good paddling suits have, the risk of a tear from an external source is low. The seals on my drysuit are 6 years old and should be replaced soon. My drytop is about 8 years old and in much better shape. They can last a reasonable amount of time if taken care of. The risks are from the weather and water conditions, not from your gear. If you focus on that and make sure you are prepared, the risks are easy to control. Winter paddling can be riskier than summer paddling, but you don't hear about paddling incidents in the winter. That's probably because the winter conditions keep the fools off the water. Mike |
Michael Daly wrote:
On 14-Jan-2005, "Tinkerntom" wrote: Don your prospective gear, and go run up and down the shore, and do some good aerobic excercises, work up a sweat. Then get in the water ... snip If this little test in any way represents the conditions that a sea kayaker could reasonably expect while paddling, the mistake they made was paddling in such conditions. If you choose to paddle during the winter in conditions where you _will_ get seriously wet and/or are at significant risk of capsize and a swim, then you clearly should not be allowed out of the house alone. Most of us check the weather before going out. If the conditions are acceptable, then we go. Under these conditions, I have _never_, ever capsized in all my years of paddling. Not once. So, the cold weather gear is to protect against an unlikely condition. Furthermore, if I go alone, I will only wear a drysuit, since only a drysuit gives the degree of protection that suits solo paddling. A wetsuit will not provide enough protection unless it is so bulky that it can't be paddled in. If I paddle with the usual gang, I might wear a farmer john and drytop, since I know they can provide an assisted rescue quickly assuming my roll fails. The claims that drysuits are bulky are nonsense. They are no more difficult to move in than any other winter clothing. Gore-tex over fleece - what's the big deal? In your other post, you point out that there is a risk that the fabric might tear. Not likely. I wear Gore-tex clothing almost year round when hiking, skiing and other sports. I put that stuff through a lot of abuse and can't remember ever tearing Gore-Tex. The seals are the weak point, but inspecting them is a good preventative measure. If your suit has Gore-tex or neoprene protection over the seals, as some good paddling suits have, the risk of a tear from an external source is low. The seals on my drysuit are 6 years old and should be replaced soon. My drytop is about 8 years old and in much better shape. They can last a reasonable amount of time if taken care of. The risks are from the weather and water conditions, not from your gear. If you focus on that and make sure you are prepared, the risks are easy to control. Winter paddling can be riskier than summer paddling, but you don't hear about paddling incidents in the winter. That's probably because the winter conditions keep the fools off the water. Mike That is one big focus, "make sure you are prepared, the risks are easy to control"??? The problem is that as a newbie am I trully capable of assessing the risk, and being properly prepared? to go out in extreme cold water conditions. "The risks are from the weather and water conditions, not from your gear." That again is the point, as a newbie it is easy to talk about a particular piece of gear. If I have a drysuit, then the weather and water conditions are no longer a concern. And to suggest that if I have a drysuit, I now have clearance to paddle solo in critical conditions, only adds to the dangerous lack of proper risk assesment. However, if I get in the water, and have to face the facts as to how cold it is and the limits of my gear to keep me warm, and the likelyhood of my being unable to handle the specific paddling environment, then I may be more inclined to stay home as you recommend, or at least not be allowed out alone. Bravado gets cold real fast! I appreciate MikeD that you are also an accomplished paddler, so the content of the white page is probably not aimed at you. But the newbie that dons a drysuit and paddles off on a new adventure, is likely the same one who does not check the weather, or that the seals are all good, or there is not a tear in the drysuit that they got on eBay for a bargain, or that the zipper is closed all the way. Besides having a reasonably bombproof roll or all the other skills and gear that make for safe paddling. I disagree with you, that "the cold weather gear is to protect against an unlikely condition." If you mean that, as it is unlikely to snow in the summer, but we have all probably heard of this happening. In fact, the very situation where a newbie wears a drysuit, is where the undesirable scenario is likely to happen. This as you point out, could just as likely be during a season when the water is warm enough that wearing a drysuit is not required, and by so doing, the newbie exposes himself to an unnecessary elevated risk! And if a likely or unlikely incident does occur, you had better know that your life support system is adequate! So yeah, I think this little test with all its limitations is at least a start. If a kayaker or their gear, cannot pass this test, it is very doubtful that they would pass a real test at sea or down the river. IMHO, I need to stay home till it warms a bit this Spring. My bravado has cold feet. TnT |
On 15-Jan-2005, "Tinkerntom" wrote:
That is one big focus, "make sure you are prepared, the risks are easy to control"??? The problem is that as a newbie am I trully capable of assessing the risk, and being properly prepared? to go out in extreme cold water conditions. My first paragraph addressed the issue of "extreme" conditions. The only thing different about winter paddling should be the temperature - that's not extreme. If you insist on paddling in extreme conditions, you deserve what you get. Sparky asked for advice - I assume that he therefore has enough interest in safe winter paddling to study the situation. If he does this and still makes an error in risk assessment, and he has heeded other guidelines (not paddling alone, carrying emergency gear, staying a reasonable distance from shore etc) a failure is not likely to be deadly. It's just a learning experience. If I have a drysuit, then the weather and water conditions are no longer a concern. And to suggest that if I have a drysuit, I now have clearance to paddle solo in critical conditions, only adds to the dangerous lack of proper risk assesment. No one has suggested that. I said specifically that the gear is not the risk - it's the weather and water. But the newbie that dons a drysuit and paddles off on a new adventure, is likely the same one who does not check the weather, or that the seals are all good, or there is not a tear in the drysuit that they got on eBay for a bargain, or that the zipper is closed all the way. That's not a newbie, that's a fool. We're not saying that there should be billboards advertising that anyone that wears a drysuit is ultimately safe and should paddle all winter. We're saying that immersion protection is a first step. We've also added other bits of advice concerning conditions and preparedness. I disagree with you, that "the cold weather gear is to protect against an unlikely condition." If I've paddled for years and _never_ capsized, how does a capsize become a likely condition? This as you point out, could just as likely be during a season when the water is warm enough that wearing a drysuit is not required, and by so doing, the newbie exposes himself to an unnecessary elevated risk! Fact of life - most paddlers are out in the summer and hypothermia kills more than drowing. Risk management in paddling is not a seasonal thing. Lots of people paddle in the winter and survive. Some of us cross- country ski in the winter, kilometers from a shelter, wearing little more than long underwear and skin-tight Lycra clothing. We don't die of hypothermia every day. We sleep in snow shelters winter camping and survive. We swim in arctic rivers in winter and then hop into a sauna and survive (photo at link taken by me in Finland a couple of years ago - 150km north of the Arctic Circle). http://www.greatlakeskayaker.ca/images/crazyAmie.jpg The kayak was invented in the environment that you seem to fear. Those of us that live in winter, rather than hiding indoors, learn to accept and deal with the risk and enjoy life. Mike |
On 15-Jan-2005, Melissa wrote:
Is it bravado? Or can it simply be an appreciation of life? It's definitely not bravado for me. The only way to survive here in the Great White North is to learn to love the winter. After all, it happens every year. Winter weather is _not_ extreme - it's normal. You learn to deal with it or you suffer. I know lots of folks who complain about the winter. Personally, I'm one of those that loves it. If you condition yourself to the weather by living in it, it is easy to deal with. Winter carnivals are common here - Quebec City's is famous (complete with an ice hotel - yes, you can stay overnight in a hotel made entirely of ice). Ottawa has Winterlude - two weeks of fun in the snow - there's nothing like skating on a 7km long canal. We celebrate the season. Kayaking in the winter is just one more way to enjoy the season. Yes, paddling while it is snowing is something special - the silence and whiteness is something few experience. My family tree goes back hundreds of years in this country, with one branch going back thousands. The winter is in my blood - like the Gilles Vigneault song goes: "Mon pays ce n'est pas un pays, c'est l'hiver" or in English: "My country it is not a country, it is the winter" (Full lyrics he http://languageproject.com/english/canada_eng.htm) The earliest I've paddled is Jan 1. The latest is Dec 23. Life is to be enjoyed. Mike |
Michael Daly wrote: On 15-Jan-2005, Melissa wrote: Is it bravado? Or can it simply be an appreciation of life? It's definitely not bravado for me. ...snip MikeD and Melissa, when I spoke of bravado, I was not referring to MikeD, but to Sparks and his OP. Sparks wrote: "Some friends and I are thinking about doing some winter time kayaking. This will be the first time we have paddled in the cold water Indiana ...pretty chilly right now). " ...snip Nothing is mentioned of their skill level, or trip planning and gear preparation, except to say that it is first time in cold water. Sounds like newbie bravado to me to think they have any business going paddling at this time and under these conditions. If he is concerned about paying $400 for a drysuit, what other preparation is too much? Are his friends equally unprepared? What a terrible way to end a bunch of friendships in a cold water incident, that we would all discuss later on the forum, about how unnecessary and stupid it all was! Melissa, I too understand the spiritual mystery of the winter solace. I am new to paddling, but have enjoyed many solitary backcountry ski trips spending the night in a tent or snow cave. I have heard the snow fall with soft thuds. But when I go out it is with full survival gear. Not as recently here in Colorado (you may have seen in the news), a supposedly experienced backcountry skier took his wife and daughter into the Grand Mesa without even matches. They have yet to find him, after he went for help, leaving them in a snow cave. They survived and were rescued but with what mental and emotional truama for the rest of their lives. All for a short fun afternoon of BC skiing. Also in the news, the out of bound skiers in Utah, who thougth the rules did not apply to them. They apparently forgot that avalache kill! I have seen the bravado of usually young skiers and boarders as they slip under the boundry ropes. No preparation for survival, no notification to anyone of where they are going, just a go-for-the-gusto attitude. I have helped find and pull their bodies out of the avalanche. Melissa, I love your crazy attitude about being fortunate to be alive. But I suspect that it is tempered with experience and not just go-for-the-gusto. I think that you and MikeD both appreciate life, and I envy you the multitude of paddling experiences and opportunities you have up in the great north country. To Be able to go out in the winter must be marvelous, and I desire in no way to disparage your joy. But as a newbie to paddling I am going slow, and encourage other newbies to be careful out there. It is a cold wet world out there that can suck the life right out of you. For you Melissa I will sign off as I use to, for I also appreciate life! Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it! |
Tinkerntom wrote:
Michael Daly wrote: On 15-Jan-2005, Melissa wrote: Is it bravado? Or can it simply be an appreciation of life? It's definitely not bravado for me. ...snip MikeD and Melissa, when I spoke of bravado, I was not referring to MikeD, but to Sparks and his OP. Sparks wrote: "Some friends and I are thinking about doing some winter time kayaking. This will be the first time we have paddled in the cold water Indiana ..pretty chilly right now). " ...snip Nothing is mentioned of their skill level, or trip planning and gear preparation, except to say that it is first time in cold water. Sounds like newbie bravado to me to think they have any business going paddling at this time and under these conditions. Excuse me? Bravado? Sparks has kayaked in warmer weather and now asks for some advice about winter kayaking and that's "newbie bravado?" Bravado is going out with ignorant confidence (or confident ignorance) into sketchy conditions, not sitting in a warm house and asking for advice. Steve |
Steve, in my previous post I acknowledge that Sparks made no mention of
his paddling experience, except to say that this would be the first time in cold water. He could very well be a very experienced expert paddler in warmer water, and this may be why he even bothered to post his question, because he recognizes his lack of experience in cold water. That is a wise newbie, but still a newbie to cold water. It would be bravado if knowing the water is cold, he proceeded with his plans without making the proper preparations, skill-wise and gear-wise. I would not want to ever discourage someone from asking any question but it is not sufficient just to ask questions, but heed the answers offered by those who have gone before. Lord knows that I have ask plenty of dumb questions. He may heed those answers and have a wonderful fulfilling trip, and I would wish him well. I would love to hear a trip report when he is back, and appreciate his pictures. That for the time being is the closest I can come to such a trip, and suragocy sucks, but its better than nothing. TnT |
Rick, I agree that to err on the side of safety is preferable. I also
tend to be a major gear freak, there is never enough toys. However I also like to know the limits of my gear, and how to properly use them. Survival is a frame of mind where you know that ultimately it is up to you to use your gear to achieve your goal. Hopefully most of our goals are to have a good time, and not suffer an injury that would spoil the fun. Most of the kayakers I have met here trully enjoy the experience, and are not just doing it for bravado. So I have to be careful that I am not preaching to the choir. On the other hand I have found that it is often wise to stop, step back, and ask myself the question; Why am I doing this? and sometimes I have even surprised myself. TnT |
On 15 Jan 2005 16:47:57 -0800, "Tinkerntom" wrote:
Galen, you are definitely correct about there being dedicated kayak drysuits. Some even designed and worn by dedicated kayakers. The problem as I understand it is that the basic technology is the same. A watertight human container which would normally incorporate insulating layers for the purpose of keeping you drier and hence warmer in extreme cold water. Apart from the bouyancy factor used by divers, there are not a lot of basic differences in the technology. The primary risk is maintaining the watertight characteristic. A breach of the seals, zipper, or basic material could be fatal. The Bare statement could just be a CYA, but the issues should be considered by the kayaking community at large, and by the individual that is considering using a drysuit in the kayaking environment. Obviously we each have to make our own decision, and I would not want to see any sort of required certification process in the practice of our sport of choice - Kayaking.TnT Catastrophic failure is just not that common an event even with a diver's type drysuit. I'm no expert by any means, I paddle the warm Florida waters only on very calm days and definitely don't poke into any underwater holes. The cave divers here often spend long times in decompression (I mean long, it is not at all unheard of for folks to spend hours just decompressing. The sinks and stuff they climb into are not exactly gentle on whatever is worn, neither is the underbrush they often hike through (suited up). A large rip or tear at depth might flood the suit with rather undesirable results for the diver, but I doubt a rip or tear would cause a kayaker to come to grief, unless in a sea or lake, in which case a rip or tear would be rather unlikely, and the (far superior) warmth attainable in a drysuit might well be needed. I don't think there is a "drysuit certification" anyway, at least I haven't heard of it, but like I say, I don't dive. Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA Guns don't kill people, religions do |
I have been reading this thread again, and realize that Sparks on Jan
11 wrote that they had cancelled their paddle plans until warmer weather, Definitly a wise kayaker! and no bravado there. I guess I'll have to get my fix from someone else, but thats OK! Tnt |
On 15-Jan-2005, Galen Hekhuis wrote:
I don't think there is a "drysuit certification" anyway, at least I haven't heard of it, but like I say, I don't dive. There is drysuit certification. Since you use your drysuit instead of BC for bouyancy control, you have to learn the ins and outs of the drysuit. There are also issues wrt making sure the air in the drysuit doesn't go into the legs etc. BTW dive drysuits that I've seen are much tougher than paddling suits. They tend to be aimed at pro or very serious divers (since the average rec diver avoids cold water) and are made to last. Mike |
On 15-Jan-2005, "Tinkerntom" wrote:
That is a wise newbie, but still a newbie to cold water. Wise or otherwise, it is impossible to do cold water paddling without at one point being a newbie. If you're never a newbie, you'll never be experienced. Telling people to avoid cold water because they're newbies is nonsense. Better to give them useful advice and sources of where to learn. Mike |
On 15-Jan-2005, Melissa wrote:
You mean you don't paddle between the 24th and the 31st? What's up with that?! :-) I take a week off for holidays, family and friends. I figure they should see me once a year. Mike |
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