|
Keenan Wellar wrote: in article , Steve Cramer at wrote on 1/15/05 7:44 PM: Tinkerntom wrote: Michael Daly wrote: On 15-Jan-2005, Melissa wrote: .... snip FYI...Tinkerntom often gives a pill a headache. Well hello Keenan, glad to see that you are still hanging around the old haunts. I saw your post earlier, and chose not to post to you in the spirit of our previous communication. The last thing I said was that I would not bother you any more unless you first directed a comment at me. Well this sounds like you said Hi, so I hope that all is well with you and your family. Hopefully you can get over the headache, I got over mine! TnT |
On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 06:34:48 GMT, "Michael Daly"
wrote: On 15-Jan-2005, Galen Hekhuis wrote: I don't think there is a "drysuit certification" anyway, at least I haven't heard of it, but like I say, I don't dive. There is drysuit certification. Since you use your drysuit instead of BC for bouyancy control, you have to learn the ins and outs of the drysuit. There are also issues wrt making sure the air in the drysuit doesn't go into the legs etc. Clearly I was wrong. I would have been more accurate if I had said that there was no certification requirement to use a drysuit like there is for getting SCUBA tanks filled with air. It is very difficult to get a SCUBA tank filled if you cannot show proof of training from some agency, there is no such restriction on donning a drysuit. BTW dive drysuits that I've seen are much tougher than paddling suits. They tend to be aimed at pro or very serious divers (since the average rec diver avoids cold water) and are made to last. All the drysuits that I've seen have been owned by local divers, and, while they don't think of themselves as being professional, they do consider themselves rather serious about cave diving (though sometimes not about other things). I don't know what you consider cold, but a lot of divers I've talked to consider decompressing in 73 degree water to be rather chilly, considering it may be some time of doing virtually nothing. In any event, most of what I hear them complain about is little leaks as opposed to tears and rips. While drysuits used by kayakers may be of lighter construction, they aren't made of flimsy material either. Unless one is completely submerged, it is difficult (though not beyond the realm of possibility) for me to imagine a circumstance in which a kayaker might have their drysuit flood to the point of becoming a hazard in itself. What I know about immersion protection could be put in an ant's brain and it would roll around like a B-B in a boxcar, which is one of the reasons I generally stick to the warm waters of Florida. I don't have to deal with shoveling snow out of the driveway, either. Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA Guns don't kill people, religions do |
Or get another bigger boat and take them with you! TnT
|
Granted, and hopefully they listen to the advise, as Sparks apparent
has. I am not saying avoid cold, but avoid stupid! To quote Forrest Gump, " Stupid is, as stupid does!" I love being a newbie, because as a newbie, I can't make any mistakes except not asking questions. The problem is that once I ask the questions, and then go out and get some experience, I am no longer just a newbie. At best I can be a wiser newbie, maybe a stupid newbie, and hopefully not a dead newbie! TnT |
Granted, and hopefully they listen to the advise, as Sparks apparent
has. I am not saying avoid cold, but avoid stupid! To quote Forrest Gump, " Stupid is, as stupid does!" I love being a newbie, because as a newbie, I can't make any mistakes except not asking questions. The problem is that once I ask the questions, and then go out and get some experience, I am no longer just a newbie. At best I can be a wiser newbie, maybe a stupid newbie, and hopefully not a dead newbie! The worst scenario, is a bunch of newbies going off and doing the newbie thing, and getting a dose of reality altogether when they were altogether unprepared for that reality. TnT |
....stuff deleted
All the drysuits that I've seen have been owned by local divers, and, while they don't think of themselves as being professional, they do consider themselves rather serious about cave diving (though sometimes not about other things). I don't know what you consider cold, but a lot of divers I've talked to consider decompressing in 73 degree water to be rather chilly, considering it may be some time of doing virtually nothing. In any event, most of what I hear them complain about is little leaks as opposed to tears and rips. While drysuits used by kayakers may be of lighter construction, they aren't made of flimsy material either. Unless one is completely submerged, it is difficult (though not beyond the realm of possibility) for me to imagine a circumstance in which a kayaker might have their drysuit flood to the point of becoming a hazard in itself. The shop I dove with (I haven't been diving in quite a while) provided dry suit certification with each sale of product. If you were not associated with the shop, you did not have a card on file. If so, you were asked what certifications you had prior to renting equipment and were required to provide (at the very least) your NAUI or PADI card. While these did not indicate dry suit certification, they did suggest the level of achievement of the diver and made them feel as though they followed reasonable process in case of liability. Here in the west, the ocean is seldom above 55F (in Monterey, the temperatures don't fluctuate much due to the cold water upwellings) and drop to mid to low forties as you go deeper (70-100 ft). This is fine for wetsuits (6mm), even during decom stops, though those who dive "dry" tend to be happier afterward (grin). What I know about immersion protection could be put in an ant's brain and it would roll around like a B-B in a boxcar, which is one of the reasons I generally stick to the warm waters of Florida. I don't have to deal with shoveling snow out of the driveway, either. It really isn't that much different, you just need to dress appropriately (which often means too warmly since it can be quite warm out here 3 seasons of the year). Often this means lots of rolling or rescue practice to cool off. Rick |
in article , Tinkerntom
at wrote on 1/16/05 7:06 PM: Granted, and hopefully they listen to the advise, as Sparks apparent has. I am not saying avoid cold, but avoid stupid! To quote Forrest Gump, " Stupid is, as stupid does!" I love being a newbie, because as a newbie, I can't make any mistakes except not asking questions. The problem is that once I ask the questions, and then go out and get some experience, I am no longer just a newbie. At best I can be a wiser newbie, maybe a stupid newbie, and hopefully not a dead newbie! The worst scenario, is a bunch of newbies going off and doing the newbie thing, and getting a dose of reality altogether when they were altogether unprepared for that reality. TnT Questions: How many people die each year while sea kayaking? What percentage of those are actually beginners? |
Keenan Wellar wrote: ....Snip I actually meant to say you'd give an aspirin a headache. Sorry. Sorry I caused you so much discomfort! Try Advil, it works better than aspirin to relax and relieve inflamation. 1/2 Aspirin a day, works if you are having heart problems, supposedly acts as a blood thinner. I keep both in my survival pack, cause you never know when you may need some. Like now! :-)TnT |
"Tinkerntom" wrote in message oups.com... Keenan Wellar wrote: ....Snip I actually meant to say you'd give an aspirin a headache. Sorry. Sorry I caused you so much discomfort! Try Advil, it works better than aspirin to relax and relieve inflamation. I try to avoid all use of drugs. In this case, totally unecessary anyway. The problem is solved by simply changing one's approach to the source of the headache. I could sense the high level of discomfort in others discovering the Tinkerntom phenomenon for the first time, and thus my comment. |
Keenan Wellar wrote:
in article , Wilko at wrote on 1/13/05 4:43 PM: I use a wetsuit with a seperate drytop all year around, both when it's freezing in the winter and when it's in the middle of the summer. Would it be possible for you to post links to the exact (or similar) garments that make up your entire winter outfit? Sounds like a good system. Let's see if I can find some links... I have the Camaro 5mm (yamamoto neoprene) paddling long john wetsuit for winter paddling (dunno if it's still made, didn't find it on the http://camaro.at manufacturers website, but it's still for sale on the http://kanoshop.nl website). The top layer of this neoprene is mostly "rubberised" instead of covered with some kind of woven fabric, as usual. Makes the neoprene withstand cold wind better. When it's not so cold, I also wear my D2 equipment wetsuit with added knee protection pads: http://wilko.webzone.ru/soc-a12.jpg I tend to wear one layer of polypro long sleeve shirt under my wetsuit (Brand name Helly Hansen, model Stripe Crew) and depending upon the temperature up to three more over my wetsuit and under my drytop. I tend to wear a polypro long pants underneath it in winter, and only shorts under it in the summer. I tend to use Hiko paddling booties, I have two pairs, in two sizes (one pair bigger size for being able to wear two layers of socks inside). I bought several pairs of the cheapest possible socks at the Wibra cheap clothes store, which are made of only artificial fibres that don't hold water well. Over my drytop I always wear Lotus neoprene sleeve elbow guards which have the nice side-effect that they cover most of my lower arms with an additional layer of neoprene, which insulates well: http://wilko.webzone.ru/soc-04.jpg (The top in this picture is a Palm drytop with dubble tunnel, which keeps the neoprene tunnel of the spraydeck nicely in place, and most of the water out of my boat.) My PFD is a Wildwater Explorer Leader, with plenty of buoyancy, which covers the front and the sides and which has an extra insulating effect. http://moo.servicesports.co.uk/service/item/428 The insulating effect can be seen here where the snow on it doesn't melt despite my body heat: http://wilko.webzone.ru/ott-5.jpg For my helmet I picked the Grateful Heads "Dropzone"helmet, which has no unnecessary holes in the top through which cold water can come in or body heat can escape. I also outfitted it with additional foam and tight enough straps so that there is very little possibility for a lot of cold water to get in between my head and helmet. Some of my friends wear neoprene hoods under their helmet in the winter. Although I have one, I never wear it. I don't flip very often during the winter. :-) In the winter I tend to wear pre-bent open palm neoprene mittens, which I have three pairs of, in different thicknesses. My favourite brand isn't made any more, but there seem to be several other brands on the market now. My girlfriend showing her very similar neoprene open palm mittens: http://wilko.webzone.ru/w-les10.jpg The drytop she is wearing here is the same model as one of my drytops, of a German brand, "kayaker.de", but their site has hiccups when I go to the "zubehoer" - "bekleidung und mehr" page. It just shows a blank page with that text, not the clothes. :-( That setup works well for me throughout the year, and depending upon the weather and water temperature, I add or substract layers of polypro. Granted, when I'm only paddling at a local playspot in the heat of central European summer in my playboat, I do change to a neoprene shorts every once in a while. :-) -- Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe ---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.--- http://wilko.webzone.ru/ |
"Wilko" wrote in message ... That setup works well for me throughout the year, and depending upon the weather and water temperature, I add or substract layers of polypro. Awww, give it up Wilko, and just get a drysuit!! :-) --riverman (quickly donning his abestos underwear) |
Excuse the top-posting, but I just wanted to say THANKS and I am checking it
all out. Marvelous! Keenan gokayaking.ca "Wilko" wrote in message ... Keenan Wellar wrote: in article , Wilko at wrote on 1/13/05 4:43 PM: I use a wetsuit with a seperate drytop all year around, both when it's freezing in the winter and when it's in the middle of the summer. Would it be possible for you to post links to the exact (or similar) garments that make up your entire winter outfit? Sounds like a good system. Let's see if I can find some links... I have the Camaro 5mm (yamamoto neoprene) paddling long john wetsuit for winter paddling (dunno if it's still made, didn't find it on the http://camaro.at manufacturers website, but it's still for sale on the http://kanoshop.nl website). The top layer of this neoprene is mostly "rubberised" instead of covered with some kind of woven fabric, as usual. Makes the neoprene withstand cold wind better. When it's not so cold, I also wear my D2 equipment wetsuit with added knee protection pads: http://wilko.webzone.ru/soc-a12.jpg I tend to wear one layer of polypro long sleeve shirt under my wetsuit (Brand name Helly Hansen, model Stripe Crew) and depending upon the temperature up to three more over my wetsuit and under my drytop. I tend to wear a polypro long pants underneath it in winter, and only shorts under it in the summer. I tend to use Hiko paddling booties, I have two pairs, in two sizes (one pair bigger size for being able to wear two layers of socks inside). I bought several pairs of the cheapest possible socks at the Wibra cheap clothes store, which are made of only artificial fibres that don't hold water well. Over my drytop I always wear Lotus neoprene sleeve elbow guards which have the nice side-effect that they cover most of my lower arms with an additional layer of neoprene, which insulates well: http://wilko.webzone.ru/soc-04.jpg (The top in this picture is a Palm drytop with dubble tunnel, which keeps the neoprene tunnel of the spraydeck nicely in place, and most of the water out of my boat.) My PFD is a Wildwater Explorer Leader, with plenty of buoyancy, which covers the front and the sides and which has an extra insulating effect. http://moo.servicesports.co.uk/service/item/428 The insulating effect can be seen here where the snow on it doesn't melt despite my body heat: http://wilko.webzone.ru/ott-5.jpg For my helmet I picked the Grateful Heads "Dropzone"helmet, which has no unnecessary holes in the top through which cold water can come in or body heat can escape. I also outfitted it with additional foam and tight enough straps so that there is very little possibility for a lot of cold water to get in between my head and helmet. Some of my friends wear neoprene hoods under their helmet in the winter. Although I have one, I never wear it. I don't flip very often during the winter. :-) In the winter I tend to wear pre-bent open palm neoprene mittens, which I have three pairs of, in different thicknesses. My favourite brand isn't made any more, but there seem to be several other brands on the market now. My girlfriend showing her very similar neoprene open palm mittens: http://wilko.webzone.ru/w-les10.jpg The drytop she is wearing here is the same model as one of my drytops, of a German brand, "kayaker.de", but their site has hiccups when I go to the "zubehoer" - "bekleidung und mehr" page. It just shows a blank page with that text, not the clothes. :-( That setup works well for me throughout the year, and depending upon the weather and water temperature, I add or substract layers of polypro. Granted, when I'm only paddling at a local playspot in the heat of central European summer in my playboat, I do change to a neoprene shorts every once in a while. :-) -- Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe ---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.--- http://wilko.webzone.ru/ |
riverman wrote:
"Wilko" wrote in message ... That setup works well for me throughout the year, and depending upon the weather and water temperature, I add or substract layers of polypro. Awww, give it up Wilko, and just get a drysuit!! Nah thanks, I'd rather spend my money on something less expensive like a new computer! ;-) (quickly donning his abestos underwear) That will probably be even more expensive than that drysuit! ;-) -- Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe ---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.--- http://wilko.webzone.ru/ |
Wilko wrote:
riverman wrote: ..... snip (quickly donning his abestos underwear) That will probably be even more expensive than that drysuit! ;-) Or a new computer. That Asbestos stuff requires a Federal EPA abatement program to take it off. This could prove interesting though. Knowing the abatetee a little, it would probably depend on the number and gender mix of the abateters. Then again, he would sure have some good material for one of his yarns. I will look forward to that chapter! :-) TnT |
But then you can't help yourself and keep coming back for more? I
realize that you and I got started on a wash cycle, so I would hope that all our hang ups can be drip dry, and move on to happier times. I find that I get along fine with most folks and actually everyone seems to have a good time, sometimes even at my expense. Last time things got a little intense and at your expense. But that was last time and a long time ago, so I am ready to move on and talk paddling sort of stuff. I again was glad to see you hanging around here and am interested in your input regarding your experience as a paddler. I still envy you living up there in that paddling haven, and even wonder if you got moved to the waterfront. Sounded great, and I would look forward to more trip reports when all you have to do is go is out your back door! I would also say that I found Wilko's approach and philosophy to cold water gear helpful. I prefer passive safety devices that work no matter my condition. With that in view, I picked up a Farmer John and jacket, with a paddle shirt on top, and a spray jacket over that. Neoprene hood and helmet for head gear, and NRS boots for feet. Look forward to trying it out. TnT |
I don't know how many die, I just don't want to be one of them if I
have anything to say or do about it! TnT |
I don't know how many die, I just don't want to be one of them, or my
friends, if I have anything to say or do about it! TnT |
Keenan Wellar wrote in
: in article , Tinkerntom at wrote on 1/16/05 7:06 PM: Granted, and hopefully they listen to the advise, as Sparks apparent has. I am not saying avoid cold, but avoid stupid! To quote Forrest Gump, " Stupid is, as stupid does!" I love being a newbie, because as a newbie, I can't make any mistakes except not asking questions. The problem is that once I ask the questions, and then go out and get some experience, I am no longer just a newbie. At best I can be a wiser newbie, maybe a stupid newbie, and hopefully not a dead newbie! The worst scenario, is a bunch of newbies going off and doing the newbie thing, and getting a dose of reality altogether when they were altogether unprepared for that reality. TnT Questions: How many people die each year while sea kayaking? Define sea kayaking? What percentage of those are actually beginners? It seems that every year around March-April there are several stories posted here about beginners that have gone out when the air temperatures warm up but the water is still cold. Typically it's the same story...no PFD and/or appropriate clothing for immersion. Last year a couple of guys went out on our local lake in a canoe and capsized about 400' from shore. The water temperature on the lake at the time was in the low 40's. They didn't have PFDs and were wearing jeans and t-shirts. They, were, however fortunate that a cottage owner saw them go over, jumped in a power boat and went out to rescue them. I have no doubt whatsoever that they would have died if the cottage owner had not seen them capsize. |
Tinkerntom wrote:
Brian and Wilko, you both represent alot of diverse paddling experience. I found this article which was originally released as a white page news brief by Bare, significant for the kayaking community. http://tinyurl.com/6wozp There's one word for the dry suit portion of this article. That word is "bull****". Bare position is that the Drysuit does not belong in a kayak. Even though it gives more cold water protection, it also requires more maintenance and training, which the recreational kayaker is probably not prepared to provide. Granted, there are high performance expert kayakers who can benefit from the higher performance, but the high performance is trumped by the higher risk inherant in drysuits. Absolute nonsense! How much training does it take to operate a friggin' zipper? Maintenance consists of rinsing it (which you should do with a wetsuit, too), lubing the zippers once in a while (I probably do it 2-3 times a year), powdering the seals when they need it (it requires knowing how to twist the cap on a talcum powder bottle) and perhaps applying a bit of 303 to the outside of the seals periodically (can you operate a spray bottle and a paper towel?). It ain't rocket science! Especially consider that many rec paddlers would use the drysuit in conditions that don't require the greater cold water protection, just to stay dry and comfortable, and the risk is even more unjustifiable. Wilko I am with you on this one! First off, I've yet to meet a "rec paddler" who would spring for a dry suit, so this argument is a red herring at best. Regardless, no one wears a dry suit - or a wet suit for that matter - if conditions don't warrant it. It's a completely bogus premise. Bare is basically saying that come a liability suit, They have announced to the world, that they would not be liable for a kayaker being injured or worse, while wearing a drysuit, since they do not approve use of their drysuit while kayaking. Well whoop-de-do for them! Kokatat, Stohlquist, Ravenspring, OS Systems, Palm and NRS, just to name a few, have no problem with selling dry suits to kayakers. Apparently their customers are complaining or suing, either. If Bare cannot or chooses not to compete in that marketplace, who cares? They're ****ing into the wind with this argument. Drysuits were designed for diving where the diver has a breathing apparatus, and goes through intense certification in order to dive, and the equipment is constantly scrutinized for mtce requirements. That goes to show how little you know about diving, but if you're not a diver, that's understandable. I'm also a certified scuba diver. I don't own a dry suit and have never done any diving in one. However, I can buy one off the rack and go diving in it tomorrow if I choose to. I haven't been diving in at least ten years, but I still have my "C" card and I could get tanks tomorrow and go diving if I choose to. Getting into diving does require training and I applaud the industry for standardizing on that business model. However, once you're "in the door", there's little regulation. The crossover application is not approved by Bare. Again, who cares and who needs them? It's one company's opinion against the rest of the world. I realize there are now dedicated kayaking drysuits, but that does not change the basic technology. The elimination of vent valves, does not make them inherantly safer. Actually, there is a big difference between diving dry suits and kayaking dry suits. Either could be used for kayaking, although the stiffer, non-breathable diving suits would be much less comfortable, that the lighter, breathable kayaking designs. A kayaking suit cannot be used for diving, for one good reason; diving dry suits are not just just for immersion protection, they also function as part of the diver's buoyancy system. Additionally, in order for a dry suit to insulate at depth, it must be partially inflated with air and adjusted as the diver's depth changes. The relief valves must be kept clean and be tested every time you go out in order to insure that they're working properly. This is CRITCAL to a dry suit diver's safety! That adds a substantial layer of complexity to the operation of the suit compared to one that will never be used below the surface of the water. In that regard, it is an apples-to-oranges comparison. And I would wonder what the manufactures liability would be if challenged in court after an accident. Well, I don't see kayaking dry suit manufacturers getting sued left and right, do you? I am a newbie to all this, and at one point considered getting a drysuit. The mystic of going out in cold water, and rolling the kayak like an Eskimo is powerful motivator for getting a drysuit. However, upon further consideration, just because I can afford the technology, does not mean I have any business buying a drysuit and putting myself in a life treating situation that requires it. There is alot more training and experience that I should gain before that day. That's a sound judgment. By all means, you must acquire the skills necessary to kayak safely in ANY water before you consider the extra risks that cold water adds. However, a dry suit does not increase your risk when paddling cold water, it dramatically DECREASES it. I've swam in my dry suit for 20 minutes or more in 40 degree water, when training other paddlers in rescue techniques. There is NO wetsuit that I could actually paddle in that would have protected me from becoming seriously hypothermic under those conditions. Yet, it was no problem in a dry suit. Our club requires dry suits on all winter paddles. We've had occasional capsizes and swims on winter trips and in cold water workshops (the latest was last weekend). Dry suits literally make the difference between these incidents being potentially life-threatening events and being merely interesting anecdotes to laugh about over beers and pizza after the trip. Until you actually experience the difference, I don't expect you to fully understand it, but it's absolutely true. The use of a wetsuit is self regulating in that it is a passive device that works to a certain temperature no matter the expertise of the paddler, or the general condition of the suit. If it is to cold for the wetsuit, the paddler should stay out of the water. If that paddler doesn't possess the necessary skills to paddle safely in cold water, absolutely. But if that paddler is skilled enough, why shouldn't he/she buy a dry suit and paddle in cold water, if they choose to? It seems to me for someone like me, a newbie, and I don't know Sparks experience, that you experts should answer his question, not with a discussion of the merits of the two systems. It's important that this information is available to people who need it. What are we supposed to do, tell him that it's OK for us to paddle in cold water, but he's not allowed to? Are we then to refuse to provide him with information that may directly affect his safety if he does choose to take the risk? How is that a service to anyone? But by recognizing the limits and aknowledging the risks involved in extreme cold water paddling, and kill the Mystic. Just my two cents worth. TnT First off, if you mean "mystique", there is none. A dry suit is a piece of clothing, not a religious icon. It's safety gear, just like a PFD, signal flares or a VHF radio. All of them require some specialized knowledge to use them properly, but none is difficult to use and none require any formal training. As the saying goes, RTFM. Do yourself a favor and forget the bull**** that Bare is feeding the public. They're a dive suit manufacturer that doesn't want people to use their products for paddling. Big deal, it's nothing more that someone with a personal ax to grind. It's still ridiculous, since I know several people who have used diving dry suits for paddling without problems. After buying breathable kayaking dry suits, they all agreed that they were more comfortable, but there are no technical problems with using diving dry suits for paddling. However, if Bare wants to whine about it, it's their prerogative to do so. It also sounds like the person making those ridiculous arguments has never set foot in a kayak. You're getting your information from a tainted source. I suggest that when the subject is kayaking, you get your info from people who know that subject. Secondly, we're answering Sparks' question. You're correct that unprepared people shouldn't paddle in cold water, regardless of the gear they may own. However, that wasn't the question. There's only so much sermonizing that we can do without insulting everyone who asks about wetsuits and dry suits. Hell, it's commendable that he even asked in the first place, as there are a lot of dimbulbs out on the water who are completely unprepared and don't even have a clue that they're risking their lives! It's up to each of us to decide if we're skilled enough to take the risks associated with cold water paddling. You've made what seems like a wise choice for yourself, given your skill level. I applaud you for that. However, I really think you've gotten this whole wetsuit/dry suit thing completely backwards in your mind after receiving some bad information. |
Galen Hekhuis wrote:
On 14 Jan 2005 18:04:32 -0800, "Tinkerntom" wrote: Brian and Wilko, you both represent alot of diverse paddling experience. I found this article which was originally released as a white page news brief by Bare, significant for the kayaking community. http://tinyurl.com/6wozp ... Am I alone in thinking that the drysuits worn for diving are just a tad different than those worn paddling? There is a huge difference, which I've detailed in my reply to Tinkertom's post. |
I suppose for those of you who struggle with this dilemna, It becomes
a function of whether you are wearing street clothes or paddle skirt, which side is the front and which the back. If you went in the street side door with paddle skirt on the neighbors may talk. If you go in shore side door with street clothes on us paddlers will definitely talk. But then all that depends on whether you are going in or coming out. How do you manage such a demanding and confusing social agenda? TnT |
Melissa wrote:
When it's not so cold, I also wear my D2 equipment wetsuit with added knee protection pads: http://wilko.webzone.ru/soc-a12.jpg Wow! That boat looks so small I wonder how you fold your legs into it! And what do you do with your feet?! :-) If I'm not mistaken, that's a tandem. I guess for people who paddle 18 foot boats, anything under 14 feet looks small, eh? Oh, and I think the answer to what you do with your feet is to wrap them around the bum of the guy in front, to keep both of you a little warmer. -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA |
Melissa wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi Steve Cramer, On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:40:47 -0500, you wrote: If I'm not mistaken, that's a tandem. I guess for people who paddle 18 foot boats, anything under 14 feet looks small, eh? Oops! I quoted the wrong picture link. I was referring to this one: http://wilko.webzone.ru/soc-04.jpg Now that is a short boat, although by modern standards, it's not really so short. But the fact that half of Wilko is in there is amazing. -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA |
Brian Nystrom wrote:
Tinkerntom wrote: Brian and Wilko, you both represent alot of diverse paddling experience. I found this article which was originally released as a white page news brief by Bare, significant for the kayaking community. http://tinyurl.com/6wozp There's one word for the dry suit portion of this article. That word is "bull****". Ladner claims Jacques Cousteau invented neoprene "after the second world war." That would probably come as a surprise to Arnold Collins and Wallace Carothers, whom Dupont says invented the stuff in 1930. And Dupont considers in synthetic rubber, not plastic. Maybe Cousteau invented wetsuits? Not according to this, although it does credit him with inventing the SCUBA tank. http://www.divinghistory.com/historyofthewetsuit.htm -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA |
I suppose for those of you who struggle with this dilemna, It becomes a
function of whether you are wearing street clothes or paddle skirt, which side is the front and which the back. If you went in the street side door with paddle skirt on the neighbors may talk. If you go in shore side door with street clothes on us paddlers will definitely talk. But then all that depends on whether you are going in or coming out. How do you manage such a demanding and confusing social agenda? However upon further consideration, I realize that kayakers may be able to handle this dilemna better than most, since ususally we don't know whether we are coming or going, and which side is up or down changes rapidly as well at times. So I propose that only kayakers, and maybe a few canoers, be allowed to have homes along the waterfront. We would sure not want all those others walking around confused about where the front door is! TnT |
in article , Tinkerntom
at wrote on 1/17/05 4:07 PM: Last time things got a little intense and at your expense. LOL! Instense? Compared to what? At my expense? Heehee. I do appreciate your sense of humour. Or ability to self-delude. Anyway, whichever! As I recall, our previous interactions concluded shortly after you engaged in a healthy round of cyberstalking, and then posted some links that you thought gave you some sort of justification for behaving like an arse. Remember when you were rambling on about how you had searched the internet for information about me and then you posted these links in a misguided attempt to prove something that perhaps only you can ever understand? http://www.geocities.com/flamingpoul...kmanonlost.jpg http://www.geocities.com/flamingpoul...manonlost2.jpg If that was all at MY expense, well, I guess you have a different understanding of revenues and expenses! |
|
in article , John Fereira at
wrote on 1/17/05 4:47 PM: Keenan Wellar wrote in : in article , Tinkerntom at wrote on 1/16/05 7:06 PM: Granted, and hopefully they listen to the advise, as Sparks apparent has. I am not saying avoid cold, but avoid stupid! To quote Forrest Gump, " Stupid is, as stupid does!" I love being a newbie, because as a newbie, I can't make any mistakes except not asking questions. The problem is that once I ask the questions, and then go out and get some experience, I am no longer just a newbie. At best I can be a wiser newbie, maybe a stupid newbie, and hopefully not a dead newbie! The worst scenario, is a bunch of newbies going off and doing the newbie thing, and getting a dose of reality altogether when they were altogether unprepared for that reality. TnT Questions: How many people die each year while sea kayaking? Define sea kayaking? Can we go with any kayaking that is not whitewater kayaking? What percentage of those are actually beginners? It seems that every year around March-April there are several stories posted here about beginners that have gone out when the air temperatures warm up but the water is still cold. Typically it's the same story...no PFD and/or appropriate clothing for immersion. Last year a couple of guys went out on our local lake in a canoe and capsized about 400' from shore. The water temperature on the lake at the time was in the low 40's. They didn't have PFDs and were wearing jeans and t-shirts. They, were, however fortunate that a cottage owner saw them go over, jumped in a power boat and went out to rescue them. I have no doubt whatsoever that they would have died if the cottage owner had not seen them capsize. Stories are stories...I'd curious to know the answer to the question. I've heard those same stories myself. |
Keenan Wellar wrote:
in article , Tinkerntom at wrote on 1/17/05 4:07 PM: Last time things got a little intense and at your expense. LOL! Instense? Compared to what? At my expense? Heehee. I do appreciate your sense of humour. Or ability to self-delude. Anyway, whichever! As I recall, our previous interactions concluded shortly after you engaged in a healthy round of cyberstalking, and then posted some links that you thought gave you some sort of justification for behaving like an arse. Remember when you were rambling on about how you had searched the internet for information about me and then you posted these links in a misguided attempt to prove something that perhaps only you can ever understand? http://www.geocities.com/flamingpoul...kmanonlost.jpg http://www.geocities.com/flamingpoul...manonlost2.jpg If that was all at MY expense, well, I guess you have a different understanding of revenues and expenses! TnT wrote: Whatever you say Keenan, at least you acknowledge that it was "a healthy round." As a newbie poster I learned a lot of what not to do, and since can hardly be accused of further grievances to you or anyone else. I spent a good bit of time reading some recommended usenet rules by Wilko and Riverman, and familiarizing myself with the group dynamic, and feel that I have mended my ways. I apologize that I had to learn at your expense. You are a seasoned traveller on the net, and if I offended you, and this was the first time - I apologize, but it won't be the last that you will be offended by someone. I expected, that you should be able to handle the discomfort, and I hope that given time you will recover. If your above creative license makes you feel better, Good! I've heard that screaming into a pillow helps also, or two aspirin. I guess I moved on, and I doubt that anyone else really cared to hear anymore about it, since noone else involved seems to feel it necessary to bring it up. You obviously still get some juice out of it, and all I can say then is whose problem is that now. I detect that thou dosth protest to much! I have been keeping my distance from you and apparently that may still be the best policy. As for me, I continue to move on, to enjoy posting here and else where, and to generally enjoy the whole paddling and usenet experience. Have a good life Keenan. Thankyou and Good bye, Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it! |
Brian, I always appreciate your come back reply, since they are
informative, and represent your paddling expertise. I would clarify that I am not opposed to the use of drysuits by properly prepared and thoughtful paddlers. My main concern would be someone buying a drysuit and heading out on a paddle trip thinking they have done all they need to do to prepare because now they have the magic drysuit. I would personally hope someday to get a drysuit, but for the meantime I need to know the limits of my wetsuit, and if it means not paddling, then I don't belong on the water. It appears that Sparks made the same decision back on the 11th. Does this deprive us of the paddling experience? Maybe, but we will live to paddle again under more favorable conditions, with out the memory of a bad experience for us, or worse yet, our survivors. I also have no doubt that the Bare white sheet is a CYA . That there are other manufactures and that there are difference in the various types is understood. The fact that maybe they have not been sued yet, may just be a matter of time in our litentious society. I work in a field frought with liability issues, so maybe a little sensitive, but remember, you got to CYA as well. TnT |
Steve Cramer wrote: Melissa wrote: When it's not so cold, I also wear my D2 equipment wetsuit with added knee protection pads: http://wilko.webzone.ru/soc-a12.jpg Wow! That boat looks so small I wonder how you fold your legs into it! And what do you do with your feet?! :-) If I'm not mistaken, that's a tandem. I guess for people who paddle 18 foot boats, anything under 14 feet looks small, eh? LOL! You are right Steve, that's indeed a Topo-Duo, a tandem whitewater kayak. Oh, and I think the answer to what you do with your feet is to wrap them around the bum of the guy in front, to keep both of you a little warmer. bg grin -- Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe ---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.--- http://wilko.webzone.ru/ |
Melissa wrote: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi Steve Cramer, On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:40:47 -0500, you wrote: If I'm not mistaken, that's a tandem. I guess for people who paddle 18 foot boats, anything under 14 feet looks small, eh? Oops! I quoted the wrong picture link. I was referring to this one: http://wilko.webzone.ru/soc-04.jpg That's an 8ft kayak, that's a long boat by todays standards! This is a 6'7" kayak, which I've been paddling for the past year and a half: http://wilko.webzone.ru/ftw-1.jpg and http://wilko.webzone.ru/kam-w-3.jpg And yes, my toes hit the front of the boat, no room for a footbrace or hitting rocks hard... :-S -- Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe ---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.--- http://wilko.webzone.ru/ |
"Wilko" wrote in message ... This is a 6'7" kayak, which I've been paddling for the past year and a half: http://wilko.webzone.ru/ftw-1.jpg I think you could lose a little mass off your paddle shaft, there, buddy! --riverman |
Steve Cramer wrote:
Brian Nystrom wrote: Tinkerntom wrote: Brian and Wilko, you both represent alot of diverse paddling experience. I found this article which was originally released as a white page news brief by Bare, significant for the kayaking community. http://tinyurl.com/6wozp There's one word for the dry suit portion of this article. That word is "bull****". Ladner claims Jacques Cousteau invented neoprene "after the second world war." That would probably come as a surprise to Arnold Collins and Wallace Carothers, whom Dupont says invented the stuff in 1930. And Dupont considers in synthetic rubber, not plastic. Maybe Cousteau invented wetsuits? Not according to this, although it does credit him with inventing the SCUBA tank. http://www.divinghistory.com/historyofthewetsuit.htm That's interesting. I knew that Cousteau is considered the inventor of SCUBA, but I hadn't heard either of these other two claims. I wonder if this guy thinks that wetsuits need to be wet to work, too? ;-) |
Tinkerntom wrote:
Tom, I don't want you to think that I was being hard on you personally. I just get a bit annoyed with people/companies like Bare that publish erroneous information for self-serving reasons. It's particularly harmful to people who are new to this game and may not possess the knowledge to be able to separate fact from fiction. It raises unnecessary concerns Brian, I always appreciate your come back reply, since they are informative, and represent your paddling expertise. I would clarify that I am not opposed to the use of drysuits by properly prepared and thoughtful paddlers. My main concern would be someone buying a drysuit and heading out on a paddle trip thinking they have done all they need to do to prepare because now they have the magic drysuit. I have to say that I consider that a baseless concern, since it essentially doesn't happen. Most paddlers have to be convinced to spend the money for a dry suit, since for most, it's a substantial investment. This is especially true of beginners, since a dry suit would cost approximately as much as the rest of their initial gear combined. At a minimum, it would increase their gear investment substantially. Perhaps it's just the crowd I paddle with, but I have yet to meet anyone who thought that a dry suit MADE them safe. Everyone I know regards a dry suit as a necessary piece of safety gear and understands that equipment is only a backup in case skill and judgment are not enough. I would personally hope someday to get a drysuit, but for the meantime I need to know the limits of my wetsuit, and if it means not paddling, then I don't belong on the water. It appears that Sparks made the same decision back on the 11th. Does this deprive us of the paddling experience? Maybe, but we will live to paddle again under more favorable conditions, with out the memory of a bad experience for us, or worse yet, our survivors. Not only am I not questioning your decisions, I think you both made the right ones considering your circumstances. Unlike many people, you two are at least smart enough to understand that you're probably not ready for the risks of cold water paddling. That mindset alone will go farther toward keeping you safe than any piece of gear. I also have no doubt that the Bare white sheet is a CYA . That there are other manufactures and that there are difference in the various types is understood. The fact that maybe they have not been sued yet, may just be a matter of time in our litentious society. I work in a field frought with liability issues, so maybe a little sensitive, but remember, you got to CYA as well. TnT Bare has every right to cover themselves. However, all they needed to do was to state that they don't recommend or condone the use of their products for sea kayaking. If they felt the need, they could have used stronger language and simply said "Do not use our dry suits for kayaking". They didn't need to pollute the air with all that other nonsense disguised as legitimate safety concerns. The truth is that dry suits work exceptionally well for paddling and they offer a substantial increase in safety for cold water paddlers (sea kayakers in particular) vs. the alternatives. I've seen this demonstrated many times and have experienced it personally, so I feel comfortable making that statement. |
Keenan Wellar wrote:
How many people die each year while sea kayaking? Define sea kayaking? Can we go with any kayaking that is not whitewater kayaking? That's probably as good of a definition as any, though there is some sea kayaking that IS whitewater, specifically surf and rock garden play. What percentage of those are actually beginners? It seems that every year around March-April there are several stories posted here about beginners that have gone out when the air temperatures warm up but the water is still cold. Typically it's the same story...no PFD and/or appropriate clothing for immersion. Last year a couple of guys went out on our local lake in a canoe and capsized about 400' from shore. The water temperature on the lake at the time was in the low 40's. They didn't have PFDs and were wearing jeans and t-shirts. They, were, however fortunate that a cottage owner saw them go over, jumped in a power boat and went out to rescue them. I have no doubt whatsoever that they would have died if the cottage owner had not seen them capsize. Stories are stories...I'd curious to know the answer to the question. I've heard those same stories myself. We get them all the time in New England, but fortunately, most of them end happily. Unfortunately, that just encourages more stupidity. Although I would never wish it, if more people died, perhaps more people would think twice before doing something really stupid. If I had a buck for every idiot I've seen out paddling on water in the 40's in nothing more than jeans or shorts and a T-shirt, I could retire tomorrow. All too often, their attitude is just like that of a couple we spoke with that was out in a tandem so dressed, with no PFD's or spray skirts. When we explained the dangers to them, their response was "Well, we weren't planning on going in the water." Duh! BTW, if you want some details regarding paddling fatalities, the ACA has published a paper on the subject that's quite illuminating. It's available on their web site. Kayakers actually come off quite well in the study. |
"Tinkerntom" wrote in message ups.com... Keenan Wellar wrote: in article , Tinkerntom at wrote on 1/17/05 4:07 PM: Last time things got a little intense and at your expense. LOL! Instense? Compared to what? At my expense? Heehee. I do appreciate your sense of humour. Or ability to self-delude. Anyway, whichever! As I recall, our previous interactions concluded shortly after you engaged in a healthy round of cyberstalking, and then posted some links that you thought gave you some sort of justification for behaving like an arse. Remember when you were rambling on about how you had searched the internet for information about me and then you posted these links in a misguided attempt to prove something that perhaps only you can ever understand? http://www.geocities.com/flamingpoul...kmanonlost.jpg http://www.geocities.com/flamingpoul...manonlost2.jpg If that was all at MY expense, well, I guess you have a different understanding of revenues and expenses! TnT wrote: Whatever you say Keenan What have I said that was not accurate? at least you acknowledge that it was "a healthy round." Er, no, my clear implication is that it was not healthy at all, and rather the work of someone who is (to use a term not found in the DSM-IV) a bit twisted. As a newbie poster I learned a lot of what not to do, and since can hardly be accused of further grievances to you or anyone else. I spent a good bit of time reading some recommended usenet rules by Wilko and Riverman, and familiarizing myself with the group dynamic, and feel that I have mended my ways. I apologize that I had to learn at your expense. Thanks. I think. You are a seasoned traveller on the net, and if I offended you, and this was the first time - I apologize, but it won't be the last that you will be offended by someone. You are offending me again with your pomposity. I will explain how you accomplish this. In the above statement (just after seeming to acknowledge that I know my way around the net) you continue on to suggest that my reaction to you is based on a lack of experience (i.e. that I should expect to be offended and that it will surely happen again.) What a revelation! Tinkerntom, you are a real master of the obvious. I expected, that you should be able to handle the discomfort, and I hope that given time you will recover. Oh boy, you are really winding up now. That aspirin is screaming for mercy, LOL. If your above creative license makes you feel better, Good! I've heard that screaming into a pillow helps also, or two aspirin. It wasn't my creative license. I am just now understanding that your massive ego has prevented you from understanding what actually happenened. During your cyberstalking, you thought you could somehow get a sense of me and the people I interact with. To try to prove your point, you posted some links, which happened to have been made by someone who I believe respects me quite a lot. They were graphics exchanged between us in a humorous context. But you, in your pomposity, thought you had stumbled across some sort of evidence that I had enemies, so you posted them. The person who made those graphics saw that you had linked to them for this purpose, and decided to teach you a lesson. A lesson you apparently failed to learn. http://www.geocities.com/flamingpoul...kmanonlost.jpg http://www.geocities.com/flamingpoul...manonlost2.jpg I am not sure that you as yet understand that I did not create the graphics above. The owner of the original graphics created them because they were offended that you had attempted to use them to disparage me. I guess I moved on, and I doubt that anyone else really cared to hear anymore about it, since noone else involved seems to feel it necessary to bring it up. Tinterntom, your concept of "moving on" is quite strange. You obviously still get some juice out of it, and all I can say then is whose problem is that now. I detect that thou dosth protest to much! I have been keeping my distance from you and apparently that may still be the best policy. Excellent news. As for me, I continue to move on, to enjoy posting here and else where, and to generally enjoy the whole paddling and usenet experience. Have a good life Keenan. Thankyou and Good bye, Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it! Goodbye! Live life Tinkerntom! As less of an asshole if possible! |
"Brian Nystrom" wrote in message ... Keenan Wellar wrote: How many people die each year while sea kayaking? Define sea kayaking? Can we go with any kayaking that is not whitewater kayaking? That's probably as good of a definition as any, though there is some sea kayaking that IS whitewater, specifically surf and rock garden play. Fair enough. If it is possible to exclude those...I think I am talking about kayakers who are going from A to B as their primary goal :-) What percentage of those are actually beginners? It seems that every year around March-April there are several stories posted here about beginners that have gone out when the air temperatures warm up but the water is still cold. Typically it's the same story...no PFD and/or appropriate clothing for immersion. Last year a couple of guys went out on our local lake in a canoe and capsized about 400' from shore. The water temperature on the lake at the time was in the low 40's. They didn't have PFDs and were wearing jeans and t-shirts. They, were, however fortunate that a cottage owner saw them go over, jumped in a power boat and went out to rescue them. I have no doubt whatsoever that they would have died if the cottage owner had not seen them capsize. Stories are stories...I'd curious to know the answer to the question. I've heard those same stories myself. We get them all the time in New England, but fortunately, most of them end happily. Unfortunately, that just encourages more stupidity. Although I would never wish it, if more people died, perhaps more people would think twice before doing something really stupid. If I had a buck for every idiot I've seen out paddling on water in the 40's in nothing more than jeans or shorts and a T-shirt, I could retire tomorrow. All too often, their attitude is just like that of a couple we spoke with that was out in a tandem so dressed, with no PFD's or spray skirts. When we explained the dangers to them, their response was "Well, we weren't planning on going in the water." Duh! BTW, if you want some details regarding paddling fatalities, the ACA has published a paper on the subject that's quite illuminating. It's available on their web site. Kayakers actually come off quite well in the study. That's sort of why I am asking these questions. A while back during a discussion on another newsgroup I came up with stats for Canada, and frankly, paddling deaths (canoe + kayak) were almost non-existent, and from what I could find, were not correlated strongly with "beginner" incidents. |
I'm not Wilko but I can help with some insight in this area since I have
been in the paddling industry for some time. Part of that time I repped for a company that sold wet suits along with many other things. The differences between one wet suit from another if very big. You can get a wide variety of thickness so one can use a suit on the summer and another can use one diving is Alaskan waters. The same goes for hoods, booties, socks and gloves. Some suite can get so thick that they are not good to use for paddling since paddlers need good range of motion. This is the simple explanation. I hope it helped. Courtney "Brian Nystrom" wrote in message ... Galen Hekhuis wrote: On 14 Jan 2005 18:04:32 -0800, "Tinkerntom" wrote: Brian and Wilko, you both represent alot of diverse paddling experience. I found this article which was originally released as a white page news brief by Bare, significant for the kayaking community. http://tinyurl.com/6wozp ... Am I alone in thinking that the drysuits worn for diving are just a tad different than those worn paddling? There is a huge difference, which I've detailed in my reply to Tinkertom's post. |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:35 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2014 BoatBanter.com