Greetings,
Some friends and I are thinking about doing some winter time kayaking. This
will be the first time we have paddled in the cold water (Indiana..pretty
chilly right now). What can you recommend for clothing? I really cant afford
to go out and buy an expensive dry suit (the ones I found on the internet
were $400 and up ). We really want to go this winter but...if not being
able to afford a drysuit is going to be a safety concern then I will wait
until spring : ) Anyone have any cheaper alternatives?

Thanks!
Sparks

What is the water temp and where exactly are you planning on being from
shore? If you are going down a river or close to shore, and can't see any
situation where if all else failed and you couldn't get to shore relatively
quickly, a heavy wetsuit might be feasible.

Here is one exposure table: http://www.universalscuba.com/page49.html


"sparks" wrote in message
...
Greetings,
Some friends and I are thinking about doing some winter time kayaking.
This will be the first time we have paddled in the cold water
(Indiana..pretty chilly right now). What can you recommend for clothing? I
really cant afford to go out and buy an expensive dry suit (the ones I
found on the internet were $400 and up ). We really want to go this
winter but...if not being able to afford a drysuit is going to be a safety
concern then I will wait until spring : ) Anyone have any cheaper
alternatives?

Thanks!
Sparks

sparks wrote:
Greetings,
Some friends and I are thinking about doing some winter time kayaking. This
will be the first time we have paddled in the cold water (Indiana..pretty
chilly right now). What can you recommend for clothing? I really cant afford
to go out and buy an expensive dry suit (the ones I found on the internet
were $400 and up ). We really want to go this winter but...if not being
able to afford a drysuit is going to be a safety concern then I will wait
until spring : ) Anyone have any cheaper alternatives?

Thanks!
Sparks


Sorry to disappoint you Sparks, but in the conditions you describe, a
dry suit is a must. A wetsuit to meet your needs would be too thick to
paddle in and insufficent once you were immersed. You may be able to
find one used at a modestly reduced rate.

Good luck,

Rick

Wet suit is fine used in combo with a dry top. I have been doing white water
for years year round down to 15 % and windy and always been comfy, even in
my first season when I took some cold water swims. Add a neoprene balaclava,
gloves ( or pogies ) and neoprene booties, and you're all set. Now if you're
talking expansive open water where you could be in it for a long time, that
is you do not have a roll, then dry suit for sure. Also, if you are wearing
a spray skirt and gloves, hang a LARGE carabiner on the grab loop. This way
when upside down, the weight of the biner will extend the grab loop and make
it easy to find.
"Rick" wrote in message
ink.net...
sparks wrote:
Greetings,
Some friends and I are thinking about doing some winter time kayaking.
This
will be the first time we have paddled in the cold water
(Indiana..pretty
chilly right now). What can you recommend for clothing? I really cant
afford
to go out and buy an expensive dry suit (the ones I found on the
internet
were $400 and up ). We really want to go this winter but...if not being
able to afford a drysuit is going to be a safety concern then I will
wait
until spring : ) Anyone have any cheaper alternatives?

Thanks!
Sparks


Sorry to disappoint you Sparks, but in the conditions you describe, a
dry suit is a must. A wetsuit to meet your needs would be too thick to
paddle in and insufficent once you were immersed. You may be able to
find one used at a modestly reduced rate.

Good luck,

Rick

On 10-Jan-2005, Rick wrote:

Sorry to disappoint you Sparks, but in the conditions you describe, a
dry suit is a must.

The OP didn't bother to say whether he's referring to WW or SK.

For sea kayaking, a wetsuit would be fine _IF_ you are always paddling
in a group, the group members all know how to do quick assisted rescues
and you aren't going to swim for very long. If solo you'd be a lot
better off with a dry suit. A bombproof roll is useful as well.

Make sure you are prepared to deal with cold - extra gear and hot drinks
etc. If someone does end up in the water longer than they are comfortable,
get to shore and deal with it. Make sure you know about hypothermia and
how to treat it.

People swim near-naked in freezing water every year and live to tell - just
do a Google search on "new year's day polar bear swim" and I'll bet
you'll get lots of hits.

Mike

Michael Daly wrote:
On 10-Jan-2005, Rick wrote:


Sorry to disappoint you Sparks, but in the conditions you describe, a
dry suit is a must.


The OP didn't bother to say whether he's referring to WW or SK.

The poster did identify his location (near the great lakes - where I
assumed he'd be paddling), which is one where temps in winter can be
well below 0 for extended periods of time (temps as long as -30F to -50F
are not common, but they do occur). During a warm spell (he later
mentioned 25F forecast, probably with significant wind, which probably
qualifies at this time of year as such), a wet suit is fairly
inadequate. The dry top is a good block for the wind, but the wetsuit
itself is not. Most are useless in the wind, by the way, as air has no
difficulty penetratring the seams in the fabric.

I also agree that there are issues with dry suits (I don't own one, by
the way, but have used them and find them too expensive to be
justifyable), and the gaskets are uncomfortable, at best.


For sea kayaking, a wetsuit would be fine _IF_ you are always paddling
in a group, the group members all know how to do quick assisted rescues
and you aren't going to swim for very long. If solo you'd be a lot
better off with a dry suit. A bombproof roll is useful as well.


Again, I disagree. Once wet, the suit will accumulate ice and its
thermal abilities would be compromised. Even with a 25F temperature,
without wind, you would find the water temperature to be quite
uncomfortable in a very short time. Sea kayaker did experiements in
water considerably warmer than this and the results were eye-opening.

Make sure you are prepared to deal with cold - extra gear and hot drinks
etc. If someone does end up in the water longer than they are comfortable,
get to shore and deal with it. Make sure you know about hypothermia and
how to treat it.


I quite agree.

People swim near-naked in freezing water every year and live to tell - just
do a Google search on "new year's day polar bear swim" and I'll bet
you'll get lots of hits.


Mike, you certainly will. They spend a few seconds in the water and seem
to be quite fine, afterward. Some individuals can stay in freezing water
for an extended period of time (the Icelandic fisherman in McPhee's book
on Iceland would be an example), but this is the exception. I would not
base any advice upon my own, or that of any other individual, personal
experience with cold water.

After a capsize, should you lack, or fail, a roll, you will be in the
water for a longer period of time than one of these swimmers. Note also
that these clubs have doctors and rescue equipment on hand for
emergencies. Most kayaking excursions are much less well equipped.
Surviving water that is 32F-35F (the likely temps in the region) is not
undoable, but if someone asks me for a recommendation on whether to
paddle on such water and I have little evidence of their skill or
hardiness, I will not, as some here have, recommend going out.

Paddling is best when you are comfortable, safe, and within your limits.
Knowing what I know of the midwest, and the fact that this individual
does not seem to definitely know the conditions he could safely paddle
in, left me with little other choice, IMO, than to throw the proverbial
cold water on his plans.

Rick

PS: Many dive shops will rent dry suits for considerably less than the
purchase price. I should probably have mentioned that, as well.

Ok - my 2 cents. I do not as yet boat in cold water myself but I do plan to
do it. I believe that 25 degrees is absolutely the wrong time to start going
out. When I am ready, I will follow some of the advice given here but I will
start making trips in the fall as the temps start downward and will make
adjustments as I find what works for ME and what does not. By the time the
temps reach 25 I will KNOW if I will be able to handle the conditions with a
fairly high degree of certainty. Again just my 2 cents but I think it is the
way to stay safe and explore your limits.

Ken


"Rick" wrote in message
ink.net...
Michael Daly wrote:
On 10-Jan-2005, Rick wrote:


Sorry to disappoint you Sparks, but in the conditions you describe, a
dry suit is a must.


The OP didn't bother to say whether he's referring to WW or SK.

The poster did identify his location (near the great lakes - where I
assumed he'd be paddling), which is one where temps in winter can be
well below 0 for extended periods of time (temps as long as -30F to -50F
are not common, but they do occur). During a warm spell (he later
mentioned 25F forecast, probably with significant wind, which probably
qualifies at this time of year as such), a wet suit is fairly
inadequate. The dry top is a good block for the wind, but the wetsuit
itself is not. Most are useless in the wind, by the way, as air has no
difficulty penetratring the seams in the fabric.

I also agree that there are issues with dry suits (I don't own one, by
the way, but have used them and find them too expensive to be
justifyable), and the gaskets are uncomfortable, at best.


For sea kayaking, a wetsuit would be fine _IF_ you are always paddling
in a group, the group members all know how to do quick assisted rescues
and you aren't going to swim for very long. If solo you'd be a lot
better off with a dry suit. A bombproof roll is useful as well.


Again, I disagree. Once wet, the suit will accumulate ice and its
thermal abilities would be compromised. Even with a 25F temperature,
without wind, you would find the water temperature to be quite
uncomfortable in a very short time. Sea kayaker did experiements in
water considerably warmer than this and the results were eye-opening.

Make sure you are prepared to deal with cold - extra gear and hot drinks
etc. If someone does end up in the water longer than they are
comfortable,
get to shore and deal with it. Make sure you know about hypothermia and
how to treat it.


I quite agree.

People swim near-naked in freezing water every year and live to tell -
just
do a Google search on "new year's day polar bear swim" and I'll bet
you'll get lots of hits.


Mike, you certainly will. They spend a few seconds in the water and seem
to be quite fine, afterward. Some individuals can stay in freezing water
for an extended period of time (the Icelandic fisherman in McPhee's book
on Iceland would be an example), but this is the exception. I would not
base any advice upon my own, or that of any other individual, personal
experience with cold water.

After a capsize, should you lack, or fail, a roll, you will be in the
water for a longer period of time than one of these swimmers. Note also
that these clubs have doctors and rescue equipment on hand for
emergencies. Most kayaking excursions are much less well equipped.
Surviving water that is 32F-35F (the likely temps in the region) is not
undoable, but if someone asks me for a recommendation on whether to
paddle on such water and I have little evidence of their skill or
hardiness, I will not, as some here have, recommend going out.

Paddling is best when you are comfortable, safe, and within your limits.
Knowing what I know of the midwest, and the fact that this individual
does not seem to definitely know the conditions he could safely paddle
in, left me with little other choice, IMO, than to throw the proverbial
cold water on his plans.

Rick

PS: Many dive shops will rent dry suits for considerably less than the
purchase price. I should probably have mentioned that, as well.

On 11-Jan-2005, Rick wrote:

The poster did identify his location (near the great lakes - where I
assumed he'd be paddling), which is one where temps in winter can be
well below 0 for extended periods of time

I live north of him and paddle in cold temps. I own a dry suit and
have also used a wet suit in winter.

The dry top is a good block for the wind, but the wetsuit
itself is not. Most are useless in the wind, by the way, as air has no
difficulty penetratring the seams in the fabric.

That depends on how strong the wind is or how cheap your wet suit is.
Mine at least has sealed seams. We were out on New Year's Day and
there was no wind. I was the only one in a drysuit and everyone else
was quite comfortable.

Since the standard wet suit is a farmer john, a jacket of some kind is
mandatory in wind. Drytop or just a windbreaker, you can be comfortable.

Again, I disagree. Once wet, the suit will accumulate ice and its
thermal abilities would be compromised. Even with a 25F temperature,
without wind, you would find the water temperature to be quite
uncomfortable in a very short time. Sea kayaker did experiements in
water considerably warmer than this and the results were eye-opening.

If you are in the kayak and paddling, you're producing heat. If ice forms,
it will crack and fall off. Besides, a wet suit doesn't hold that much
water on its surface. The neoprene itself does not absorb water and
will not have its insulation compromised. Been there, done that.

I don't know about the Sea Kayaker tests (cite please) but I know I've
gone for a swim in winter and if you're up to it, it isn't that bad.
The big problems are related to controlling breathing - cold water
gasp reflex (sudden inhalation when you hit cold water) can get you,
especially if you are underwater when it happens. When floating,
you have a tendency to breathe in panic mode - control that and
you most of the way to controlling the whole situation.

Note also that these clubs have doctors and rescue equipment on
hand for emergencies.

Liability issues and the fact that out-of-shape bozos come out of the
woodwork to join in the fun. If you've got a heart condition, no,
you shouldn't be risking cold water immersion. If you're fit, that's
another story.

After a capsize, should you lack, or fail, a roll, you will be in the
water for a longer period of time than one of these swimmers.

I've been in water these temps for longer than a few seconds. Even in
a wet suit, it can take several seconds just for the water to penetrate
to your skin if you've got layers on.

Surviving water that is 32F-35F (the likely temps in the region) is not
undoable, but if someone asks me for a recommendation on whether to
paddle on such water and I have little evidence of their skill or
hardiness, I will not, as some here have, recommend going out.

You only said that they have to have a drysuit. A drysuit by itself
is not a solution. I know of folks who have gone out in a drysuit
with no insulation underneath and another that wore a drysuit and
left the zippers open (he drowned - on Superior - I believe it was
discussed here a few years ago).

I give Sparky the benefit of the doubt and assume he's not an idiot,
since he asked for advice. Telling him to be prepared is better
than telling him to stay home.

Mike

Rick wrote:
sparks wrote:

Greetings,
Some friends and I are thinking about doing some winter time kayaking.
This will be the first time we have paddled in the cold water
(Indiana..pretty chilly right now). What can you recommend for
clothing? I really cant afford to go out and buy an expensive dry suit
(the ones I found on the internet were $400 and up ). We really want
to go this winter but...if not being able to afford a drysuit is going
to be a safety concern then I will wait until spring : ) Anyone have
any cheaper alternatives?

Thanks!
Sparks

Sorry to disappoint you Sparks, but in the conditions you describe, a
dry suit is a must. A wetsuit to meet your needs would be too thick to
paddle in and insufficent once you were immersed. You may be able to
find one used at a modestly reduced rate.

Nonsense Rick. A wetsuit needed to paddle in conditions where the water
is still flowing wouldn't be too thick. Combine it with a good
(semi-)drytop and a couple of layers of polypro underneath that drytop,
and you can be nice and warm in those conditions.

Very few people over here buy drytops due to their their very high
prices, and that's with the main paddling season being in the winter:

http://wilko.webzone.ru/galler15.html

http://wilko.webzone.ru/galler16.html

http://wilko.webzone.ru/galler19.html

I would agree if you'd say that a drytop can be a cosier alternative,
but it comes at a price and a risk.

I personally don't like paddling drysuits. First of all, I think that
they just cost too much, especially for a beginning paddler. It's still
necessary to wear a thick enough layer of clothes underneath to keep out
the cold and to have some padding in the case of a close encounter with
hard objects. It's also not all that easy to get into a new or newly
gasketed drysuit, having witnessed all too many wrestling drysuit owners
trying very hard to get into their prized garments... And then I haven't
started about the strength and agility needed to close that zipper! :-)

My main problem with them are the gaskets though. I don't like a latex
gasket around my neck, as I really abhor a neck rash. These neck gaskets
are the first to become so wide that water can freely flow in and out,
because your (big) head has to go through them, stretching the darn
thing, whereas it should shrink to the size of your neck after that
every time. Besides, seeing how many of the drysuits have no protective
neoprene cover, getting a deep scratch from a sharp rock, branches or
thorns makes the entire term "dry" suit a lie. It's not cheap nor easy
for beginners to replace gaskets yourself, especially neck gaskets. I
replaced the wrist gaskets of two semi-dry tops, and although I'm rather
handy, it still took quite some skill and time.

Even worse, if you rip a gasket, the suit can fill up with water and
cause you to disappear under water, as RBP'er Larry Cable witnessed when
he had to "swim" with a swamped dry suit. The air trapped inside your
leg pants after you rip a neck gasket and the suit floods can also cause
you to float upside down, making it very hard to breathe.

Still, despite those horror stories many drysuit owners swear by their
virtues, and I have to agree that seeing them get out of their suit
after a day of paddling almost dry does have its merits.

If you get one, the tips I've picket up so far a get the latex
booties, but one size bigger than your shoe size, so that you can wear
socks inside them. That also makes it less important to have tight ankle
gaskets, so that your feet get more blood, in turn keeping them warmer.
Get a paddling dry suit which comes with an extra tunnel around the
waist, under which you can put the tunnel of your spraydeck, keeping the
seepage into your boat through the tunnel to a minimum.

Make sure that it's a paddling drysuit, with neoprene gaskets covering
the vulnerable latext gaskets, and adding to the safety by still having
some layer to keep water out in the case that you rip a gasket.

Always get one with a relief zipper, and if you do spend the pile of
money needed to get a Goretex dry suit, have a look at the Goretex
website to hear about how to treat it.

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

Wilko, in general I agree with your comments about drysuits.
For me the biggest advantage of a drysuit is that it can have
integral socks, which make a big difference in keeping feet warm,
especially for open-deck boaters. You skillfully enumerated the
disadvantages of cost, gasket discomfort, and safety problems.

Two specific disagreements:

Wilko wrote:
If you get one, the tips I've picket up so far a get the latex
booties, but one size bigger than your shoe size, so that you can
wear socks inside them.

Neoprene or fabric socks (goretex or other coated cloth) last longer
than latex. With all the scouting and portaging I do, I never got
more than a year out of latex socks. The goretex ones I have on now
have lasted at least 5 years.

Always get one with a relief zipper...

I have been very unhappy with my relief zipper, which leaks badly.

The newish Palm drysuit has the main zipper in an arrangment so that
men can use it for "relief" after taking off the PFD. I recommend
avoiding relief zipper if possible (not possible with Kokatat designs)
to save money and avoid possible failure.