in article , Wilko at
wrote on 1/13/05 4:43 PM:

I use a wetsuit with a seperate drytop all
year around, both when it's freezing in the winter and when it's in the
middle of the summer.

Would it be possible for you to post links to the exact (or similar)
garments that make up your entire winter outfit? Sounds like a good system.

Brian Nystrom wrote:
Michael Daly wrote:
On 11-Jan-2005, "sparks" wrote:

..

Sparks, if you can't afford proper immersion clothing for the
conditions, stay off the water. Cold water is not the place for
bravado
and bluster. It's a very unforgiving environment that must be treated

with respect. Sure, people get away with pushing their luck, just as
with many other activities. However, you could just as easily be the
one
that doesn't get away with it. IMO, it's not worth it. Save your
money
and buy a dry suit on sale in the spring. You'll still need it until
the
water warms up, anyway.

Sparks, I have been following this discussion, and reread the
responses. Basically I think what it comes down to is that each has
their own threshold tolerance for wet, windy, cold, latex, neoprene,
zippers, etc. What you might think about doing is this - Don your
prospective gear, and go run up and down the shore, and do some good
aerobic excercises, work up a sweat. Then get in the water and go out
about 10 ft. and get good and wet. Remember kayaking is a wet water
sport. Don't fuss with a boat, or any other gear at this time. You will
know in about 5 minutes whether the immersion gear you have is adequate
or not. Try swiming, and be sure and get your head under. Check your
sudden gasp response. Do this about 3 times, and then run back and set
in the car/PU, with heater running, and a nice warm cup of coffee. Like
Brian says, you may not take any more convincing to wait for a nice
spring day!

On the other hand, if you are having a good time, and remember your
doing this for the fun of it. And your wetsuit is comfortably cold, and
like MikeD and Wilko, you can't wait to get in your boat, then go the
next step. Take your boat down to the water this time and do a wet
entry after again getting all wet and standing in the water for 5
minutes. No seal launches, no buffs. Just a complete wet entry. If it
doesn't happen, get out of the water and back in the warm vehicle, more
warm coffee.

If it happens, go for a short paddle, and return to start, wet exit,
and start over. Remember you are probably doing this in a relatively
protected area when well rested. So many incidents occur after jumping
in a boat, paddling way out from shore, or down a river run, and all of
a sudden your tired and the waves and the wind get to kicking up, and
the warm car/PU is a long ways away. And all you can think of is the
warm Coffee.

Which reminds me, about all that coffee! That is why the relief zipper
is so important and that it work smoothly!! :=) TnT

Brian and Wilko, you both represent alot of diverse paddling
experience. I found this article which was originally released as a
white page news brief by Bare, significant for the kayaking community.

http://tinyurl.com/6wozp

Bare position is that the Drysuit does not belong in a kayak. Even
though it gives more cold water protection, it also requires more
maintenance and training, which the recreational kayaker is probably
not prepared to provide. Granted, there are high performance expert
kayakers who can benefit from the higher performance, but the high
performance is trumped by the higher risk inherant in drysuits.

Especially consider that many rec paddlers would use the drysuit in
conditions that don't require the greater cold water protection, just
to stay dry and comfortable, and the risk is even more unjustifiable.
Wilko I am with you on this one!

Bare is basically saying that come a liability suit, They have
announced to the world, that they would not be liable for a kayaker
being injured or worse, while wearing a drysuit, since they do not
approve use of their drysuit while kayaking. Drysuits were designed for
diving where the diver has a breathing apparatus, and goes through
intense certification in order to dive, and the equipment is constantly
scrutinized for mtce requirements. The crossover application is not
approved by Bare. I realize there are now dedicated kayaking drysuits,
but that does not change the basic technology. The elimination of vent
valves, does not make them inherantly safer. And I would wonder what
the manufactures liability would be if challenged in court after an
accident.

I am a newbie to all this, and at one point considered getting a
drysuit. The mystic of going out in cold water, and rolling the kayak
like an Eskimo is powerful motivator for getting a drysuit. However,
upon further consideration, just because I can afford the technology,
does not mean I have any business buying a drysuit and putting myself
in a life treating situation that requires it. There is alot more
training and experience that I should gain before that day.

The use of a wetsuit is self regulating in that it is a passive device
that works to a certain temperature no matter the expertise of the
paddler, or the general condition of the suit. If it is to cold for the
wetsuit, the paddler should stay out of the water.

It seems to me for someone like me, a newbie, and I don't know Sparks
experience, that you experts should answer his question, not with a
discussion of the merits of the two systems. But by recognizing the
limits and aknowledging the risks involved in extreme cold water
paddling, and kill the Mystic. Just my two cents worth. TnT

On 14 Jan 2005 18:04:32 -0800, "Tinkerntom" wrote:

Brian and Wilko, you both represent alot of diverse paddling
experience. I found this article which was originally released as a
white page news brief by Bare, significant for the kayaking community.

http://tinyurl.com/6wozp
...

Am I alone in thinking that the drysuits worn for diving are just a tad
different than those worn paddling?

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
Guns don't kill people, religions do

Tinkerntom wrote:
Brian and Wilko, you both represent alot of diverse paddling
experience. I found this article which was originally released as a
white page news brief by Bare, significant for the kayaking community.

http://tinyurl.com/6wozp

Bare position is that the Drysuit does not belong in a kayak. Even
though it gives more cold water protection, it also requires more
maintenance and training, which the recreational kayaker is probably
not prepared to provide. Granted, there are high performance expert
kayakers who can benefit from the higher performance, but the high
performance is trumped by the higher risk inherant in drysuits.


Tink,

The drysuit has been used for a lot of years by kayakers. If you go back
to Dowd's first edition of his book, he actually recommends them for
exactly the conditions we've been discussing. The diving drysuit,
however, is a bit different from the immersion suit a kayaker would use,
in both materials and requirements. Diving, remember, involves
connecting the suit to your air supply and adjusting bouyancy by adding
or leaking air from the suit. These valves, as you point out, would not
exist on the equipment you'd use as a kayker and training in their use
is pointless.

What does remain the same, however, is the basics of how the suit works.
The insulation is provided by the clothes you wear. The integrity of the
suit and its seals are critical and less likely to be compromised by a
sea kayaker than a river kayaker. Use of a dry suit by a river runner
would, most likely, create additional risks (since its bulky nature
would lead to severe disadvantages in running water and once torn, it
would be a huge danger). For this reason, I can see the manufacturer
suggesting that they not be used to run rivers. These risks are
negligible for a sea kayaker.

Especially consider that many rec paddlers would use the drysuit in
conditions that don't require the greater cold water protection, just
to stay dry and comfortable, and the risk is even more unjustifiable.
Wilko I am with you on this one!


As far as cost is concerned, I agree. Were I to go paddling on one of
the great lakes in winter, however, I would definitely wear same.

....stuff deleted


It seems to me for someone like me, a newbie, and I don't know Sparks
experience, that you experts should answer his question, not with a
discussion of the merits of the two systems. But by recognizing the
limits and aknowledging the risks involved in extreme cold water
paddling, and kill the Mystic. Just my two cents worth. TnT


Valid point. I am concerned, first and foremost, with giving advice that
falls on the safer side of the situation. Some disagree with me on that,
which is fine. This is probably more a difference between the nature of
sea kayakers and their WW bretheren.

Having done some of both, I realize that sea kayakers have different
expectations of their equipment. Sea kayerks expect to be in the water
in an emergency situation for an extended period of time (weather that
defeats your skills will last for many hours, but the conditions of a
river tend to change much more quickly. In a drysuit, I could float in
the 45F-55F water here for 24 hours. That degree of protecation from
cold can be critical. In a wet suit (3mm farmer john - a denser suit is
too restrictive for long term paddling), 2 hours is about the limit for
thermal protection for most in those conditions. This may be woefully
inadequate for some.

I've used my wetsuit(s) for many years now. Perhaps some folks have
suits that perform better than either of mine. Great from them. My
suits, however, offer virtually no protection from wind. When wet, they
are great. When dry in cold wind, they are virtually useless. I base my
recommendations on these criteria. The criteria on which we base our
decisions do, at times, need to be explained. I made no effort to do
this in my previous post(s). For this, I apologize.

I still stand by my recommendation that a dry suit is required for the
conditions described. I am, by no means, critical of those who
recommended otherwise. As I point out, from their perspective, I
probably come off as a bit of a wimp. So it goes.

Rick

On 14-Jan-2005, "Tinkerntom" wrote:

Don your
prospective gear, and go run up and down the shore, and do some good
aerobic excercises, work up a sweat. Then get in the water and go out
about 10 ft. and get good and wet. Remember kayaking is a wet water
sport. Don't fuss with a boat, or any other gear at this time. You will
know in about 5 minutes whether the immersion gear you have is adequate
or not. Try swiming, and be sure and get your head under. Check your
sudden gasp response. Do this about 3 times,

If this little test in any way represents the conditions that a sea kayaker
could reasonably expect while paddling, the mistake they made was paddling
in such conditions.

If you choose to paddle during the winter in conditions where you _will_
get seriously wet and/or are at significant risk of capsize and a swim,
then you clearly should not be allowed out of the house alone.

Most of us check the weather before going out. If the conditions are
acceptable, then we go. Under these conditions, I have _never_, ever
capsized in all my years of paddling. Not once. So, the cold weather
gear is to protect against an unlikely condition. Furthermore, if
I go alone, I will only wear a drysuit, since only a drysuit gives the
degree of protection that suits solo paddling. A wetsuit will not
provide enough protection unless it is so bulky that it can't be
paddled in. If I paddle with the usual gang, I might wear a farmer
john and drytop, since I know they can provide an assisted rescue
quickly assuming my roll fails.

The claims that drysuits are bulky are nonsense. They are no more
difficult to move in than any other winter clothing. Gore-tex over
fleece - what's the big deal?

In your other post, you point out that there is a risk that the fabric
might tear. Not likely. I wear Gore-tex clothing almost year round
when hiking, skiing and other sports. I put that stuff through a lot
of abuse and can't remember ever tearing Gore-Tex. The seals are the
weak point, but inspecting them is a good preventative measure. If
your suit has Gore-tex or neoprene protection over the seals, as some
good paddling suits have, the risk of a tear from an external source
is low.

The seals on my drysuit are 6 years old and should be replaced soon.
My drytop is about 8 years old and in much better shape. They can
last a reasonable amount of time if taken care of.

The risks are from the weather and water conditions, not from your
gear. If you focus on that and make sure you are prepared, the
risks are easy to control. Winter paddling can be riskier than
summer paddling, but you don't hear about paddling incidents in
the winter. That's probably because the winter conditions
keep the fools off the water.

Mike

Michael Daly wrote:
On 14-Jan-2005, "Tinkerntom" wrote:

Don your
prospective gear, and go run up and down the shore, and do some
good
aerobic excercises, work up a sweat. Then get in the water ...
snip

If this little test in any way represents the conditions that a sea
kayaker
could reasonably expect while paddling, the mistake they made was
paddling
in such conditions.

If you choose to paddle during the winter in conditions where you
_will_
get seriously wet and/or are at significant risk of capsize and a
swim,
then you clearly should not be allowed out of the house alone.

Most of us check the weather before going out. If the conditions are
acceptable, then we go. Under these conditions, I have _never_, ever
capsized in all my years of paddling. Not once. So, the cold
weather
gear is to protect against an unlikely condition. Furthermore, if
I go alone, I will only wear a drysuit, since only a drysuit gives
the
degree of protection that suits solo paddling. A wetsuit will not
provide enough protection unless it is so bulky that it can't be
paddled in. If I paddle with the usual gang, I might wear a farmer
john and drytop, since I know they can provide an assisted rescue
quickly assuming my roll fails.

The claims that drysuits are bulky are nonsense. They are no more
difficult to move in than any other winter clothing. Gore-tex over
fleece - what's the big deal?

In your other post, you point out that there is a risk that the
fabric
might tear. Not likely. I wear Gore-tex clothing almost year round
when hiking, skiing and other sports. I put that stuff through a lot
of abuse and can't remember ever tearing Gore-Tex. The seals are the
weak point, but inspecting them is a good preventative measure. If
your suit has Gore-tex or neoprene protection over the seals, as some
good paddling suits have, the risk of a tear from an external source
is low.

The seals on my drysuit are 6 years old and should be replaced soon.
My drytop is about 8 years old and in much better shape. They can
last a reasonable amount of time if taken care of.

The risks are from the weather and water conditions, not from your
gear. If you focus on that and make sure you are prepared, the
risks are easy to control. Winter paddling can be riskier than
summer paddling, but you don't hear about paddling incidents in
the winter. That's probably because the winter conditions
keep the fools off the water.

Mike

That is one big focus, "make sure you are prepared, the risks are easy
to control"??? The problem is that as a newbie am I trully capable of
assessing the risk, and being properly prepared? to go out in extreme
cold water conditions.

"The risks are from the weather and water conditions, not from your
gear." That again is the point, as a newbie it is easy to talk about a
particular piece of gear. If I have a drysuit, then the weather and
water conditions are no longer a concern. And to suggest that if I have
a drysuit, I now have clearance to paddle solo in critical conditions,
only adds to the dangerous lack of proper risk assesment.

However, if I get in the water, and have to face the facts as to how
cold it is and the limits of my gear to keep me warm, and the
likelyhood of my being unable to handle the specific paddling
environment, then I may be more inclined to stay home as you recommend,
or at least not be allowed out alone.
Bravado gets cold real fast!

I appreciate MikeD that you are also an accomplished paddler, so the
content of the white page is probably not aimed at you. But the newbie
that dons a drysuit and paddles off on a new adventure, is likely the
same one who does not check the weather, or that the seals are all
good, or there is not a tear in the drysuit that they got on eBay for a
bargain, or that the zipper is closed all the way. Besides having a
reasonably bombproof roll or all the other skills and gear that make
for safe paddling.

I disagree with you, that "the cold weather gear is to protect against
an unlikely condition." If you mean that, as it is unlikely to snow in
the summer, but we have all probably heard of this happening. In fact,
the very situation where a newbie wears a drysuit, is where the
undesirable scenario is likely to happen. This as you point out, could
just as likely be during a season when the water is warm enough that
wearing a drysuit is not required, and by so doing, the newbie exposes
himself to an unnecessary elevated risk! And if a likely or unlikely
incident does occur, you had better know that your life support system
is adequate!

So yeah, I think this little test with all its limitations is at least
a start. If a kayaker or their gear, cannot pass this test, it is very
doubtful that they would pass a real test at sea or down the river.
IMHO, I need to stay home till it warms a bit this Spring. My bravado
has cold feet. TnT

On 15-Jan-2005, "Tinkerntom" wrote:

That is one big focus, "make sure you are prepared, the risks are easy
to control"??? The problem is that as a newbie am I trully capable of
assessing the risk, and being properly prepared? to go out in extreme
cold water conditions.

My first paragraph addressed the issue of "extreme" conditions. The only
thing different about winter paddling should be the temperature - that's
not extreme. If you insist on paddling in extreme conditions, you deserve
what you get.

Sparky asked for advice - I assume that he therefore has enough interest
in safe winter paddling to study the situation. If he does this and still
makes an error in risk assessment, and he has heeded other guidelines
(not paddling alone, carrying emergency gear, staying a reasonable
distance from shore etc) a failure is not likely to be deadly. It's just
a learning experience.

If I have a drysuit, then the weather and
water conditions are no longer a concern. And to suggest that if I have
a drysuit, I now have clearance to paddle solo in critical conditions,
only adds to the dangerous lack of proper risk assesment.

No one has suggested that. I said specifically that the gear is not
the risk - it's the weather and water.

But the newbie
that dons a drysuit and paddles off on a new adventure, is likely the
same one who does not check the weather, or that the seals are all
good, or there is not a tear in the drysuit that they got on eBay for a
bargain, or that the zipper is closed all the way.

That's not a newbie, that's a fool. We're not saying that there should
be billboards advertising that anyone that wears a drysuit is ultimately
safe and should paddle all winter. We're saying that immersion
protection is a first step. We've also added other bits of advice
concerning conditions and preparedness.

I disagree with you, that "the cold weather gear is to protect against
an unlikely condition."

If I've paddled for years and _never_ capsized, how does a capsize
become a likely condition?

This as you point out, could
just as likely be during a season when the water is warm enough that
wearing a drysuit is not required, and by so doing, the newbie exposes
himself to an unnecessary elevated risk!

Fact of life - most paddlers are out in the summer and hypothermia kills
more than drowing. Risk management in paddling is not a seasonal thing.

Lots of people paddle in the winter and survive. Some of us cross-
country ski in the winter, kilometers from a shelter, wearing little
more than long underwear and skin-tight Lycra clothing. We don't
die of hypothermia every day. We sleep in snow shelters winter
camping and survive. We swim in arctic rivers in winter and then
hop into a sauna and survive (photo at link taken by me in Finland
a couple of years ago - 150km north of the Arctic Circle).

http://www.greatlakeskayaker.ca/images/crazyAmie.jpg

The kayak was invented in the environment that you seem to fear. Those
of us that live in winter, rather than hiding indoors, learn to accept
and deal with the risk and enjoy life.

Mike

On 15-Jan-2005, Melissa wrote:

Is it bravado? Or can it simply be an appreciation of life?

It's definitely not bravado for me. The only way to survive here
in the Great White North is to learn to love the winter. After
all, it happens every year.

Winter weather is _not_ extreme - it's normal. You learn to deal
with it or you suffer. I know lots of folks who complain about
the winter. Personally, I'm one of those that loves it. If
you condition yourself to the weather by living in it, it is
easy to deal with.

Winter carnivals are common here - Quebec City's is famous
(complete with an ice hotel - yes, you can stay overnight in
a hotel made entirely of ice). Ottawa has Winterlude - two
weeks of fun in the snow - there's nothing like skating on
a 7km long canal. We celebrate the season.

Kayaking in the winter is just one more way to enjoy the
season. Yes, paddling while it is snowing is something
special - the silence and whiteness is something few
experience.

My family tree goes back hundreds of years in this country,
with one branch going back thousands. The winter is in my
blood - like the Gilles Vigneault song goes:

"Mon pays ce n'est pas un pays, c'est l'hiver"

or in English: "My country it is not a country, it is the winter"

(Full lyrics he http://languageproject.com/english/canada_eng.htm)

The earliest I've paddled is Jan 1. The latest is Dec 23.
Life is to be enjoyed.

Mike

Michael Daly wrote:
On 15-Jan-2005, Melissa wrote:

Is it bravado? Or can it simply be an appreciation of life?

It's definitely not bravado for me. ...snip

MikeD and Melissa, when I spoke of bravado, I was not referring to
MikeD, but to Sparks and his OP.

Sparks wrote:
"Some friends and I are thinking about doing some winter time kayaking.
This will be the first time we have paddled in the cold water Indiana
...pretty chilly right now). " ...snip

Nothing is mentioned of their skill level, or trip planning and gear
preparation, except to say that it is first time in cold water. Sounds
like newbie bravado to me to think they have any business going
paddling at this time and under these conditions. If he is concerned
about paying $400 for a drysuit, what other preparation is too much?
Are his friends equally unprepared? What a terrible way to end a bunch
of friendships in a cold water incident, that we would all discuss
later on the forum, about how unnecessary and stupid it all was!

Melissa, I too understand the spiritual mystery of the winter solace. I
am new to paddling, but have enjoyed many solitary backcountry ski
trips spending the night in a tent or snow cave. I have heard the snow
fall with soft thuds.

But when I go out it is with full survival gear. Not as recently here
in Colorado (you may have seen in the news), a supposedly experienced
backcountry skier took his wife and daughter into the Grand Mesa
without even matches. They have yet to find him, after he went for
help, leaving them in a snow cave. They survived and were rescued but
with what mental and emotional truama for the rest of their lives. All
for a short fun afternoon of BC skiing.

Also in the news, the out of bound skiers in Utah, who thougth the
rules did not apply to them. They apparently forgot that avalache kill!
I have seen the bravado of usually young skiers and boarders as they
slip under the boundry ropes. No preparation for survival, no
notification to anyone of where they are going, just a go-for-the-gusto
attitude. I have helped find and pull their bodies out of the
avalanche.

Melissa, I love your crazy attitude about being fortunate to be alive.
But I suspect that it is tempered with experience and not just
go-for-the-gusto. I think that you and MikeD both appreciate life, and
I envy you the multitude of paddling experiences and opportunities you
have up in the great north country. To Be able to go out in the winter
must be marvelous, and I desire in no way to disparage your joy.

But as a newbie to paddling I am going slow, and encourage other
newbies to be careful out there. It is a cold wet world out there that
can suck the life right out of you.

For you Melissa I will sign off as I use to, for I also appreciate
life!

Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it!