Brian, I always appreciate your come back reply, since they are
informative, and represent your paddling expertise. I would clarify
that I am not opposed to the use of drysuits by properly prepared and
thoughtful paddlers. My main concern would be someone buying a drysuit
and heading out on a paddle trip thinking they have done all they need
to do to prepare because now they have the magic drysuit. I would
personally hope someday to get a drysuit, but for the meantime I need
to know the limits of my wetsuit, and if it means not paddling, then I
don't belong on the water. It appears that Sparks made the same
decision back on the 11th. Does this deprive us of the paddling
experience? Maybe, but we will live to paddle again under more
favorable conditions, with out the memory of a bad experience for us,
or worse yet, our survivors.

I also have no doubt that the Bare white sheet is a CYA . That there
are other manufactures and that there are difference in the various
types is understood. The fact that maybe they have not been sued yet,
may just be a matter of time in our litentious society. I work in a
field frought with liability issues, so maybe a little sensitive, but
remember, you got to CYA as well. TnT

Steve Cramer wrote:

Melissa wrote:

When it's not so cold, I also wear my D2 equipment wetsuit with
added knee protection pads:
http://wilko.webzone.ru/soc-a12.jpg


Wow! That boat looks so small I wonder how you fold your legs into it!
And what do you do with your feet?! :-)


If I'm not mistaken, that's a tandem. I guess for people who paddle 18
foot boats, anything under 14 feet looks small, eh?

LOL! You are right Steve, that's indeed a Topo-Duo, a tandem whitewater
kayak.

Oh, and I think the answer to what you do with your feet is to wrap them
around the bum of the guy in front, to keep both of you a little warmer.

bg grin

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

Melissa wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi Steve Cramer,

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:40:47 -0500, you wrote:


If I'm not mistaken, that's a tandem. I guess for people who paddle
18 foot boats, anything under 14 feet looks small, eh?


Oops! I quoted the wrong picture link. I was referring to this one:

http://wilko.webzone.ru/soc-04.jpg

That's an 8ft kayak, that's a long boat by todays standards!

This is a 6'7" kayak, which I've been paddling for the past year and a half:

http://wilko.webzone.ru/ftw-1.jpg

and

http://wilko.webzone.ru/kam-w-3.jpg

And yes, my toes hit the front of the boat, no room for a footbrace or
hitting rocks hard... :-S

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

"Wilko" wrote in message
...


This is a 6'7" kayak, which I've been paddling for the past year and a
half:

http://wilko.webzone.ru/ftw-1.jpg


I think you could lose a little mass off your paddle shaft, there, buddy!

--riverman

Steve Cramer wrote:
Brian Nystrom wrote:

Tinkerntom wrote:

Brian and Wilko, you both represent alot of diverse paddling
experience. I found this article which was originally released as a
white page news brief by Bare, significant for the kayaking community.

http://tinyurl.com/6wozp


There's one word for the dry suit portion of this article. That word
is "bull****".


Ladner claims Jacques Cousteau invented neoprene "after the second world
war." That would probably come as a surprise to Arnold Collins and
Wallace Carothers, whom Dupont says invented the stuff in 1930. And
Dupont considers in synthetic rubber, not plastic.

Maybe Cousteau invented wetsuits? Not according to this, although it
does credit him with inventing the SCUBA tank.
http://www.divinghistory.com/historyofthewetsuit.htm

That's interesting. I knew that Cousteau is considered the inventor of
SCUBA, but I hadn't heard either of these other two claims. I wonder if
this guy thinks that wetsuits need to be wet to work, too? ;-)

Tinkerntom wrote:

Tom, I don't want you to think that I was being hard on you personally.
I just get a bit annoyed with people/companies like Bare that publish
erroneous information for self-serving reasons. It's particularly
harmful to people who are new to this game and may not possess the
knowledge to be able to separate fact from fiction. It raises
unnecessary concerns

Brian, I always appreciate your come back reply, since they are
informative, and represent your paddling expertise. I would clarify
that I am not opposed to the use of drysuits by properly prepared and
thoughtful paddlers. My main concern would be someone buying a drysuit
and heading out on a paddle trip thinking they have done all they need
to do to prepare because now they have the magic drysuit.

I have to say that I consider that a baseless concern, since it
essentially doesn't happen. Most paddlers have to be convinced to spend
the money for a dry suit, since for most, it's a substantial investment.
This is especially true of beginners, since a dry suit would cost
approximately as much as the rest of their initial gear combined. At a
minimum, it would increase their gear investment substantially.

Perhaps it's just the crowd I paddle with, but I have yet to meet anyone
who thought that a dry suit MADE them safe. Everyone I know regards a
dry suit as a necessary piece of safety gear and understands that
equipment is only a backup in case skill and judgment are not enough.

I would
personally hope someday to get a drysuit, but for the meantime I need
to know the limits of my wetsuit, and if it means not paddling, then I
don't belong on the water. It appears that Sparks made the same
decision back on the 11th. Does this deprive us of the paddling
experience? Maybe, but we will live to paddle again under more
favorable conditions, with out the memory of a bad experience for us,
or worse yet, our survivors.

Not only am I not questioning your decisions, I think you both made the
right ones considering your circumstances. Unlike many people, you two
are at least smart enough to understand that you're probably not ready
for the risks of cold water paddling. That mindset alone will go farther
toward keeping you safe than any piece of gear.

I also have no doubt that the Bare white sheet is a CYA . That there
are other manufactures and that there are difference in the various
types is understood. The fact that maybe they have not been sued yet,
may just be a matter of time in our litentious society. I work in a
field frought with liability issues, so maybe a little sensitive, but
remember, you got to CYA as well. TnT

Bare has every right to cover themselves. However, all they needed to do
was to state that they don't recommend or condone the use of their
products for sea kayaking. If they felt the need, they could have used
stronger language and simply said "Do not use our dry suits for
kayaking". They didn't need to pollute the air with all that other
nonsense disguised as legitimate safety concerns.

The truth is that dry suits work exceptionally well for paddling and
they offer a substantial increase in safety for cold water paddlers (sea
kayakers in particular) vs. the alternatives. I've seen this
demonstrated many times and have experienced it personally, so I feel
comfortable making that statement.

Keenan Wellar wrote:

How many people die each year while sea kayaking?

Define sea kayaking?


Can we go with any kayaking that is not whitewater kayaking?

That's probably as good of a definition as any, though there is some sea
kayaking that IS whitewater, specifically surf and rock garden play.

What percentage of those are actually beginners?


It seems that every year around March-April there are several stories posted
here about beginners that have gone out when the air temperatures warm up
but the water is still cold. Typically it's the same story...no PFD and/or
appropriate clothing for immersion. Last year a couple of guys went out on
our local lake in a canoe and capsized about 400' from shore. The water
temperature on the lake at the time was in the low 40's. They didn't have
PFDs and were wearing jeans and t-shirts. They, were, however fortunate
that a cottage owner saw them go over, jumped in a power boat and went out
to rescue them. I have no doubt whatsoever that they would have died if the
cottage owner had not seen them capsize.


Stories are stories...I'd curious to know the answer to the question. I've
heard those same stories myself.

We get them all the time in New England, but fortunately, most of them
end happily. Unfortunately, that just encourages more stupidity.
Although I would never wish it, if more people died, perhaps more people
would think twice before doing something really stupid. If I had a buck
for every idiot I've seen out paddling on water in the 40's in nothing
more than jeans or shorts and a T-shirt, I could retire tomorrow. All
too often, their attitude is just like that of a couple we spoke with
that was out in a tandem so dressed, with no PFD's or spray skirts. When
we explained the dangers to them, their response was "Well, we weren't
planning on going in the water." Duh!

BTW, if you want some details regarding paddling fatalities, the ACA has
published a paper on the subject that's quite illuminating. It's
available on their web site. Kayakers actually come off quite well in
the study.

"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
ups.com...
Keenan Wellar wrote:
in article ,
Tinkerntom
at wrote on 1/17/05 4:07 PM:

Last time things got a little intense and at your expense.

LOL! Instense? Compared to what?

At my expense? Heehee. I do appreciate your sense of humour. Or
ability to
self-delude. Anyway, whichever!

As I recall, our previous interactions concluded shortly after you
engaged
in a healthy round of cyberstalking, and then posted some links that
you
thought gave you some sort of justification for behaving like an
arse.

Remember when you were rambling on about how you had searched the
internet
for information about me and then you posted these links in a
misguided
attempt to prove something that perhaps only you can ever understand?

http://www.geocities.com/flamingpoul...kmanonlost.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/flamingpoul...manonlost2.jpg

If that was all at MY expense, well, I guess you have a different
understanding of revenues and expenses!

TnT wrote:
Whatever you say Keenan

What have I said that was not accurate?

at least you acknowledge that it was "a
healthy round."

Er, no, my clear implication is that it was not healthy at all, and rather
the work of someone who is (to use a term not found in the DSM-IV) a bit
twisted.

As a newbie poster I learned a lot of what not to do,
and since can hardly be accused of further grievances to you or anyone
else. I spent a good bit of time reading some recommended usenet rules
by Wilko and Riverman, and familiarizing myself with the group dynamic,
and feel that I have mended my ways. I apologize that I had to learn at
your expense.

Thanks. I think.

You are a seasoned traveller on the net, and if I offended you, and
this was the first time - I apologize, but it won't be the last that
you will be offended by someone.

You are offending me again with your pomposity.

I will explain how you accomplish this.

In the above statement (just after seeming to acknowledge that I know my way
around the net) you continue on to suggest that my reaction to you is based
on a lack of experience (i.e. that I should expect to be offended and that
it will surely happen again.)

What a revelation! Tinkerntom, you are a real master of the obvious.

I expected, that you should be able to
handle the discomfort, and I hope that given time you will recover.

Oh boy, you are really winding up now. That aspirin is screaming for mercy,
LOL.

If
your above creative license makes you feel better, Good! I've heard
that screaming into a pillow helps also, or two aspirin.

It wasn't my creative license. I am just now understanding that your massive
ego has prevented you from understanding what actually happenened.

During your cyberstalking, you thought you could somehow get a sense of me
and the people I interact with. To try to prove your point, you posted some
links, which happened to have been made by someone who I believe respects me
quite a lot. They were graphics exchanged between us in a humorous context.
But you, in your pomposity, thought you had stumbled across some sort of
evidence that I had enemies, so you posted them. The person who made those
graphics saw that you had linked to them for this purpose, and decided to
teach you a lesson. A lesson you apparently failed to learn.

http://www.geocities.com/flamingpoul...kmanonlost.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/flamingpoul...manonlost2.jpg

I am not sure that you as yet understand that I did not create the graphics
above. The owner of the original graphics created them because they were
offended that you had attempted to use them to disparage me.

I guess I moved on, and I doubt that anyone else really cared to hear
anymore about it, since noone else involved seems to feel it necessary
to bring it up.

Tinterntom, your concept of "moving on" is quite strange.

You obviously still get some juice out of it, and all I can say then is
whose problem is that now. I detect that thou dosth protest to much! I
have been keeping my distance from you and apparently that may still be
the best policy.

Excellent news.

As for me, I continue to move on, to enjoy posting here and else
where, and to generally enjoy the whole paddling and usenet experience.
Have a good life Keenan.
Thankyou and Good bye, Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it!

Goodbye! Live life Tinkerntom! As less of an asshole if possible!

"Brian Nystrom" wrote in message
...
Keenan Wellar wrote:

How many people die each year while sea kayaking?

Define sea kayaking?


Can we go with any kayaking that is not whitewater kayaking?

That's probably as good of a definition as any, though there is some sea
kayaking that IS whitewater, specifically surf and rock garden play.

Fair enough. If it is possible to exclude those...I think I am talking about
kayakers who are going from A to B as their primary goal :-)


What percentage of those are actually beginners?


It seems that every year around March-April there are several stories
posted
here about beginners that have gone out when the air temperatures warm up
but the water is still cold. Typically it's the same story...no PFD
and/or
appropriate clothing for immersion. Last year a couple of guys went out
on
our local lake in a canoe and capsized about 400' from shore. The water
temperature on the lake at the time was in the low 40's. They didn't
have
PFDs and were wearing jeans and t-shirts. They, were, however fortunate
that a cottage owner saw them go over, jumped in a power boat and went
out
to rescue them. I have no doubt whatsoever that they would have died if
the
cottage owner had not seen them capsize.


Stories are stories...I'd curious to know the answer to the question.
I've
heard those same stories myself.

We get them all the time in New England, but fortunately, most of them end
happily. Unfortunately, that just encourages more stupidity. Although I
would never wish it, if more people died, perhaps more people would think
twice before doing something really stupid. If I had a buck for every
idiot I've seen out paddling on water in the 40's in nothing more than
jeans or shorts and a T-shirt, I could retire tomorrow. All too often,
their attitude is just like that of a couple we spoke with that was out in
a tandem so dressed, with no PFD's or spray skirts. When we explained the
dangers to them, their response was "Well, we weren't planning on going in
the water." Duh!

BTW, if you want some details regarding paddling fatalities, the ACA has
published a paper on the subject that's quite illuminating. It's available
on their web site. Kayakers actually come off quite well in the study.

That's sort of why I am asking these questions. A while back during a
discussion on another newsgroup I came up with stats for Canada, and
frankly, paddling deaths (canoe + kayak) were almost non-existent, and from
what I could find, were not correlated strongly with "beginner" incidents.

I'm not Wilko but I can help with some insight in this area since I have
been in the paddling industry for some time. Part of that time I repped for
a company that sold wet suits along with many other things. The differences
between one wet suit from another if very big. You can get a wide variety
of thickness so one can use a suit on the summer and another can use one
diving is Alaskan waters. The same goes for hoods, booties, socks and
gloves. Some suite can get so thick that they are not good to use for
paddling since paddlers need good range of motion. This is the simple
explanation. I hope it helped.

Courtney

"Brian Nystrom" wrote in message
...
Galen Hekhuis wrote:
On 14 Jan 2005 18:04:32 -0800, "Tinkerntom" wrote:


Brian and Wilko, you both represent alot of diverse paddling
experience. I found this article which was originally released as a
white page news brief by Bare, significant for the kayaking community.

http://tinyurl.com/6wozp
...


Am I alone in thinking that the drysuits worn for diving are just a tad
different than those worn paddling?

There is a huge difference, which I've detailed in my reply to
Tinkertom's post.